 January 8, 2012 - 3:49pm | Looking for some explanation here. Many things in Star Frontiers were presented with an air of atmosphere and not a basis in fact. One of these areas I feel is most abused is the description of SpaceFleet Enlisted. Although the officers of the Spacefleet represent some of the finest individuals in the Frontier, the same cannot be said for the crews of Spacefleet ships. The enlisted members of the fleet come from all walks of life. The fleet always is short of crew members, so the requirements for enlistment are not rigorous. No checking is done regarding a crew member's background or abilities; consequently, a great amount of galactic riffraff has found a home in the crew's quarters of Spacefleet vessels. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 January 13, 2012 - 5:45pm | The pictures I posted before are from the anime The Irresponsible Captain Tylor. The crew played-out like a parody of Legends of Galactic Heroes, with uptight officers, lazy crewmen, gossipy bridge-bunnies, and roughneck space marines. The SF space fleets would not be that bad (well, maybe some of the militia fleets  ).Oh, and the purple hair guy is not the troublemaker. The blond mute in the hockey mask behind him is the one you have watch-out for! He's a little... crazy!  |
 January 20, 2012 - 5:16am | well just to throw my hat in the ring here... good points being made all around, but it is only going to reflect historic precedent so closely before it stops being what it is, a future-frontier prediction of less than stellar resources. 1.) education of the "average dreg" should be considered within the scope of the time and place... most any spacer will know those conditional basics of a space environment first-hand quick enough, and "Golliwood" does not need to rely on speculative-fiction to produce a space-pirate action adventure, they can film it on location and don't need technical advisers to help them "fake-it" in space... so even the common G-weller citizen will have realistic survival-basics exposure by the time they are old enough to reach a throttle from an inertia-couch... such "training-film cartoon-serials" are not an uncommon way to produce specialists of the next generation, so don't overlook it. 2.) I still don't support the inertia-couch being a "one-mold-fits-all-structures" possibility, and don't see "mixed-crews" being more common than "species-dominate crews" - or Vrusk Fleet-ships stationed very far from Vrusk Interests... yes I hear what is said about loyalties and cohesion, and I do not see Spacefleet being so high-and-moral-mighty above the standard citizen that prejudice is "star-trekishly" eliminated into a homogenized utopia... it is a Frontier, and everyone in it is looking-out for their own interests, Spacefleet is just made up of those who have a "strong tradition of muster-under-fire; to uphold military hounor - in the ideal that cooperative efforts is in the best interest of the whole..." MOST of the time... I would say; Rocky Jones, Buck Rogers, Star Buck (and his twin sister from another dimension), Flash Gordon, Buzz Lightyear... these are the heroes that are the exception NOT the rule. Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
January 20, 2012 - 5:50am | Those characters are generally what US film industry likes to present as the hero. A rebel who does not follow the rules but still somehow manages to come out on top despite the overwhelming odds. Which may of may not be what your campaigns are about. Still makes you wonder how do you want to present the enlisted of the most powerful military force in the Frontier. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 January 20, 2012 - 12:29pm | Actually Starbuck's twin sister from another demenaion would, according to her XO, qualify as a dreg. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 21, 2012 - 2:09am | @jedion357  nice point!As a 20 year-old mustered out of air-service and kicking around in industrial mines as a contract surveyor - [William] Anthony "Buck [Jones]" Rogers, according to the original 1920s comic strip premise. would also be a bit of a dreg... @rattraveller Ace Ames, Buster Evans, Hurricane Hawk, Clipper Williams, and Speed McCloud were so much the "dregs" they were never really even considered for any important military duty backgrounds... but were all quite capable in the private sector - and thus may not be as easily labeled such. These falling more into an earlier archetype mold that later became the 30s and 40s prototyes of characters like Cliff Secord, Jeff King, and "Commando" Cody - or even later as Anthony Edward Stark in the 60s. As rebel-heroes who do not follow the rules but still somehow manage to come out on top, despite the overwhelming odds, and for the greater progress of humanity's "manifest destiny" - exploration - expansion - exploitation... these I would say fit the mold. The first list do not fall into the "do not follow the rules" archetype quite as strictly, however... Rocky Jones and Buzz Lightyear are Space Rangers, and as lawmen always follow the spirit (if not always the letter) of law quite closely. Starbuck and Buck Rogers kinda edge over as close as they can to the "rouge-scoundrel" and still be "exemplary soldiers" and "proven citizens" in their shiny boy-scout uniforms and display of military-hounors. The honest square young chap Steven Guy "Flash" Mitchells Gordon is the "All-American-[?bastard?]Kid" (or even the "All-Australian-Kid" if you prefer, and are not too nit-picky) is a polo player and Yale graduate, and there-for just can't be wrong, somehow pulling off being both a paragon-of-innocence and justicar-of-democracy, Steven "Lightyear/Speed/Flash" Gordon has a cultural impunity to always be more correct than the any culture he visits... later "Flash" is portrayed more like the Space Ranger archetype, as the "All-American-Kid" grew up and became a space-cop - a definite heritage in the naming and theme of Buzz Lightyear. The very name of the character always brings consideration to some legitimacy in lineage out of me - did he ever have parents?... a question of who fathered? I don't recall seeing them, ever... anyway... I thought I had something laying around here to contribute... but I seem to have misplaced it... oh well, perhaps I derailed the OT with nostalgic heroes trivia long enough...  Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 January 21, 2012 - 4:23am | These are great examples but my major beef is with the word dregs and the image it invokes. For most people reading the rule book casually the word dregs invokes the images of someone like Spivey from the movie dances with wolves or on the positive side the new sherlock holmes (if you want to go to the opposite end of the spectrum of intelligence). The word on face value does not invoke the image of Buck Rogers, Starbuck, or rebellious but heroic icons. I may agree that Malcom reynolds and his crew would be considered dregs because they were outlaws and fit model of serious spacers eeking out a living on the fringe of society. |
January 21, 2012 - 8:36am | Perhaps another word would be more acceptable and still maintain the idea that perhaps the commitment levels of officers and enlisted are different and that there is the possibility of problem arising. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 21, 2012 - 11:39am | Let's keep in mind "dregs" aren't specifically mentioned in the book. The word was "riff raff" --- aka disreputable persons, versus dregs --- least valuable part of anything. While neither may be preferable to deal with, there's a pretty generous gap between the two  |
January 21, 2012 - 11:50am | I could live with rift raft. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 21, 2012 - 1:05pm | Whether the word is dregs or riff raff the concept is still one of sulky low life characters or ill-repute. |
January 21, 2012 - 1:17pm | Whether the word is dregs or riff raff the concept is still one of sulky low life characters or ill-repute.
Words have meaning and as shadow pointed out these don't mean the same. I'm guessing we're not going to find a middle ground to make everyone happy which is OK too.I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 21, 2012 - 6:46pm | Personally, I'll take bad reputation over complete and utter worthlessness any day. And the book specifically stated the former, not the latter |
January 21, 2012 - 6:48pm | Personally, I'll take bad reputation over complete and utter worthlessness any day. And the book specifically stated the former, not the latter I like the possibility of discipline problems and a mutiny if you were running a big ship campaign. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 21, 2012 - 9:27pm | See, that would be the difference between dregs and riff-raff: riff-raff might just become inspired to mutiny while at the same time possessing sufficient skills to do their job. Dregs on the other hand would be completely worthless douche waffles, meaning they'd be so under-skilled (or more appropriately, UNskilled) that while a mutiny would be inevitable, the simple fact is they would lack the skills to be hired in the first place so they wouldn't even be there for the mutiny. In other words, the UPF wouldn't waste time hiring the guy that just got fired from his 2 day tenure as a fry cook at McRollers to be a technician aboard a frigate...since he couldn't hold a job at the fast food joint he surely doesn't know which end of the electrodriver goes onto the screw. |
January 22, 2012 - 7:09pm | Spacefleet might not but you forget Spacefleet isn't in charge of hiring. EXAMPLE A little while ago the economy was good and the war had been dragging on for awhile. (Talking US and Iraq/Afghan) seems the US Army was having trouble getting people to join. The Army Brass went to their bosses (Congress) and said "We need some more money to offer bigger bonuses to get more people to join" and they said "No". So the Brass said, "But we have to get more people in or we won't be able to complete our missions." Bosses said, "Take GED holders". Brass said "No No NO we have mountains of data from when we were forced to take GED holders before. If they couldn't complete High School they won't be good soldiers. It will end up costing us more in time, training, discipline and lots of other areas than it would if you gave us the bonus money. Bosses said, "Nope we think its a good idea so do it." Brass saluted and said, "Yes Sirs" and proceeded to take in GED holders until the economy collapsed and Grads wanted in with no bonuses and they could stop taking GED holders. Maybe something like that happened in Spacefleet. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 23, 2012 - 12:09am | I know a guy who dropped out of high school forged a high school diploma and joined the army to go to Iraq. Recruiter even knew that the diploma was fake but still inducted him into the army. Punchline is that he was an American citizen fluent in Arabic and wanted to join- sometimes practical realities changes the paradigm you operate under. Money gets tight and paradigms change. One has to wonder how well funded the UPF is and what the budget for space fleet is after 50, 60, or 70 without the sathar invading again. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 16, 2012 - 8:14pm | I see the word Riff Raff - and all I ever get is a picture of a hunch-back singing high-pitch solo in the window of a creepy mansion...  I understand the disparity between the semantic value used in a word and the casual vocabulary of language abuse... but to be hounest, you can only go so far with catering to invalid imagery, common or not, before you have to remind people what the word really means... villain means people of the manorial village - who were not expected to be beholden to a code of chivalric duty, dose not mean that they did not aspire to a code of feudal idealism supported on chivalric conduct. All rural farming villages are technically full of villainous people, no matter their social standing; Villagers, Villains, Vile-folk. Eventually, if words are left to fall to common imagery over proper definements, every term of possible low-class semantic would wash into the vile-wyrd (a village in a stagnate swamp) and every term of high-class semantics will become lost in the splendid pageantry and stately procession of temporal progression - with the pomp of time... I plea to the call of Humanate-noblesse-oblige, one must draw a line somewhere and return words to their meaning or lose their meaning altogether. ...but on the other hand, I may be just an outlaw th'of in among pauper villains... what right would I have to make any plea. An for mihi, whom of dere bide wouldst to be repraesentare en court of the matter?  Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
January 24, 2012 - 4:34am | @rattraveller Something like that happens all over the world every day, dun it?  The people who do the hiring are rarely ever in communication with the people who need the staffing, and all sides get the shaft so often there is not really much wonder noone can ever keep up... Yea it goes back to the service thing, I don't expect lots of people capable of passing specs, would sign up for a death-can-in-space job... you gotta be smart enough to know better, dense enough not to care, empathic enough to defend a guy you will never know, and honest enough to do your best at it all... people would be more likely to fill local land and system militia first... and can easily consider a transstellar megacorp before even looking at Spacefleet, PGC is a very reasonable competition. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
January 24, 2012 - 5:33am | That is another aspect we haven't touched upon Coyote. PGC, Streel, The Militias and some others offer alternatives to joining Spacefleet. These groups probably offer better pay and benefits not to mention in the Militia case being stationed close to home and not all over the Frontier. To illustrate one field the US Army has trouble recruiting for is the Regular Infantry. They make up the bulk of not only the Army but the entire US Military. Even being a retired US Army Infantryman I know that the Best of them go off to the Special Forces and Rangers and other in house groups not to mention the Army is in competition with the Marine Corps for the same type of person and guess who has the better reputation. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 24, 2012 - 5:55am | ...and guess who has the better reputation.
Ahhh, the Air Force? :)I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 24, 2012 - 6:04am | Overall the Air Force has a better rep for taking care of its people and general working and living conditions. BUT my comments were about Infantry. Which since the Air Force doesn't have any means they don't count for that. Besides while pilots are respected if there was a ground fight I would call the Coast Guard before the Air Force. The Coast Guard gets into alot with its anti-terrorism and criminal intervention activities. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 24, 2012 - 6:41am | @rattraveler: :) I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 February 1, 2012 - 7:13am | when considering militia as an alternative to starfleet, remember that militias usually have sub-par training, equipment and pay. Usually the pay comes several pay cycles late. Just an historical observation. I can see your dregs/riff raff developing from borderline washouts of starfleet and pissed off militia members. From there I am sure many would graduate into piracy. I could also imagine militia "live fire" exercises actually being pirate raids on the fringe if oversight was lax enough that they could hide it. |
February 2, 2012 - 7:08am | Nice! I love that take on a militia live fire exercise. I can just see an outer reach militia captain anouncing a live fire exercise and the crew cheering. I've long thought that we could use a write up on a second string militia in the Frontier. Sort of a Warriors of White Light module for a second string militia- system brief, militia and government brief, series of encounters similar to WoWL mod. Some AD and some KH's style encounters lumped together with a thin story line allowing it to be used as the beginning of a campaign or to support a campaign. EDIT: post edited to fix smart phone's changes to my late night post. EDIT #2: I just happened to be reviewing material in the Hitchhikers project and Noted that there was a "Call to Warriors" described in the documents on Athor system (particularly in the page on Exib): http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/6011 http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/6012 Since the cannon matterial does not list a militia for Athor I made their militia non void capable; meaning that they just have a few fighters and boarding shuttles. They are effectively a 2nd string militia simply from a military perspective since they're not void capable. However, they are very highly motivated and the civil service ethic that was written into their society and the typical yazirian sense of honor means they are very dedicated. A write up with scenarios on this militia could be called "A Call to Warriors" as a play on that phrase in the setting fluff. Some possibilities for the encounters: 1. the natural disaster described in Exib's history: fragments of a comet striking the moon 2. possibilities described in the Yazirian Civil war thread- Hentz which does have a void capable militia projecting its power and influence into Athor. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 2, 2012 - 5:29am | Getting back to another post one thing that still does not make sense to me is that is these people are riff raff and not well liked they are still more skilled than your average ground pounder if you use the KH rules to get them even a level one space ship skill. So we consider them to be like hackers? Most people acknowledge they have more skill in computer science than the average person but your stereotype of them is not a guy in a three piece suit. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
February 2, 2012 - 11:22am | @ratt That reminds me of the Kentucy (and Tennesse of course) militia and their efforts in the war of 1812. They marched into New Orleans without shoes (there is some historical research that indicates that they may have actually started the march with shoes, but many believe that when the militia returned to their homes, they brought back the concept of footware to their families) and many without shirts. There are also records indicating that these riff-raff were so underdressed that their little hillbillies were hanging out. They didn't shave or bathe. They had no manners or understanind of social graces that the fine citizens of New Orleans claimed. Many saw them as vermin. And that was just the impression of the Americans. Just imagine what the British were saying. But nobody mocked, jeered or insulted them when they witnessed them taking head shots at British officers 300 yards away. One reason for their shooting skills as their specialized weapons. However, the main reason for their skills was that they used these skills every day just to stay alive and put food on the table. They didn't "practice" their skills, they lived them. So these hillbillies were indeed riff-raff. Highly skilled and exceedingly patriotic riff-raff. The ladies of New Orleans were very grateful and appreciative to them. However, none of those ladies (used as a title and not a notation of gender) were taken back to the hills as war brides. Gratitude of course, has it's limits. |
February 2, 2012 - 12:09pm | Getting back to another post one thing that still does not make sense to me is that is these people are riff raff and not well liked they are still more skilled than your average ground pounder if you use the KH rules to get them even a level one space ship skill.
I wouldn't say the enlisted have (let alone need) KH skills. They're the "jobbers", the guys that take care of the more "petty" stuff (meaning other stuff that isn't related with the actual operation of the ship). Boarding parties, technicians, cooks, medical officers...stuff like that. A frigate has a crew of 25-30, not all of them have (let alone need) KH skills. The only KH skills you need are one pilot, one astrogator, one engineeer, and a gunner for each of the four weapon systems. Double that to provide round the clock shifts and you're up to 14 of the 25-30. The rest are AD skilled enlisted crew. In fact, to cite such an example --- I would go so far and say that the engineer rarely gets his hands dirty on repair and maintenance work...he simply directs & oversees the enlisted technicians. After all, every one of those technicians has the "repair machinery" skill, it's the engineer that knows how all that fits together and simply doles out the duties. In other words, the enlisted crew are simply ground pounders aboard a ship. |
 February 2, 2012 - 9:07pm | @ Shadow, That actually makes since aabout ground pounders aboard ship. I have been reading this thread and that makes perfect sense even including riff-raff/ dregs or whatever you want to call the enlisted. Motivation to be in space Fleet but not skilled enough or educated enough to be an officer. That does not preclude them from being good workers or soldier/sailor. The officer's would look down upon them as they are uneducated compared to them in the highly more educated acts of running a spaceship. This of course would change over time though. So by SWII it may be a different outlook, but for starting and defining the original cannon rules this does make sense to me. |
February 3, 2012 - 5:58am | OK like the ideas especially going with the impression of the Militia units which served under Jackson at New Orleans (they probably had shoes but shoes didn't last long when marching long distances and needed replacing more frequently than today alot of this in the American Revolution and some in the Civil War) The but is how did they get this rep? The current Air Force is similar in that the enlisted do not have the skills of the officers i.e. flying the planes but are not considered riff raff. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
February 3, 2012 - 8:40am | OK like the ideas especially going with the impression of the Militia units which served under Jackson at New Orleans (they probably had shoes but shoes didn't last long when marching long distances and needed replacing more frequently than today alot of this in the American Revolution and some in the Civil War)
Space Fleet was modelled on the USAF but on the British Navy of the 19th century. Perhaps a poor choice on the part of the writers of KHs but it is what we have. I'd support dumping it if we didn't have any similar examples of modern technological military forces but we do and not even a piss ant one; the Soviet Air Force where even officers did maintenance because the enlisted were not trusted. So since we have modern example of really dreg like enlisted which were probably worse then the British enlisted other the 19th century perhaps it might be productive to discuss what sorts of personnel and budget policies would create such a situation? We can even treat the cannon statement as only true for a brief period: two decades leading up to and ending with SW2. Thus for most of its history Space Fleet had solid crews but the period suggested was dark times for the service. There is some real story potential there.The but is how did they get this rep? The current Air Force is similar in that the enlisted do not have the skills of the officers i.e. flying the planes but are not considered riff raff. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
