 February 11, 2012 - 5:20pm | Black economy is basically illegal stansaction; they are anything, drugs, prostitution, gamboling, probably want to toss in strippers. So with a cashless society, IDs and electronic currency how does the black economy work? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 February 11, 2012 - 8:03pm | Unless the transactions have to be labeled as to why they were done, it should not matter who you give your money to. But there would be an electronic trail for Star Law to follow. I have seen something in a movie before about this but I am stumped as to how they handled it. I am sure they would have some front transaction that could not be traced after that to move credits. Maybe a device that scrubs the electronic signiature so it can't be traced. |
February 11, 2012 - 10:25pm | Credit Voucher Chips, credits are "downloaded" from your account to a chip much like a pre paid debit card. Any amount is possible but round numbers are popular to facilitate trade. Money can be re uploaded to account or the chip can be held onto as pocket cash. The chip can of course be stolen but money on a chip cannot be tracked or taxed. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 February 12, 2012 - 1:48am | Same way they work today. Use front companies that are legit and hide the transactions in their accounts. This is what money laundering is all about. It is even used legally. Now I have no experience at this but I have heard you can get subscriptions to certain sites now changing from .com to .xxx which appear on your credit card statement as something like Acme Inc and not Busty Asian Beauties. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
February 12, 2012 - 7:00am | And street transactions? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 12, 2012 - 9:09am | I must have a much higher Streetwise than you do Jed. Here we go one mistake many people make is thinking money is the only thing of value. Identity theft would not be the huge crime it is if identities did not have value. Most of the time identities are used to get access to credit which is then used to get items which is then used to get cash or they just keep the items. Food stamp programs are constantly working on ways to secure themselves because once food stamps hit the streets they are cash. You honestly never heard of food stamp recipients trading them for drugs? Vehicles are stolen for their license plates and VIN plates so other stolen cars can pass through customs and be disposed of. There is a story from Pre-Nazi Germany about how inflation was so bad a woman had to take an entire basket of Marks to the store to buy bread but when she set it down someone stole the basket and left the Marks. People watching you dial in your phone card number so they can use it themselves. Cons using cigarettes as the means of exchange. The whole key here is you just have to have something of value which can be traded back and forth and just a little on the legal side. My choice would be PGC gift cards. Buy them in set amounts 10, 50, 100, 1000 or 10,000 credit denominations and give them as payment for what you and then the receiver either buys things with them or gets credit for them with either a PGC employee on the take or has a hacking program which allows them to switch it to their account. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 February 12, 2012 - 12:52pm | I'm not a big fan of electronic credits. I like a mix of electronic funds and carried funds. Sometimes NPC's and PC's don't want their transactions tracked, ya know. One of the best ways I've seen to hide money is to dump it into a jewelry store, then take those goods abroad and sell them. Can't be tracked. Amazing what internet security meetings can do for gaming. lol |
 February 12, 2012 - 1:32pm | In the URS Frontier due to the number of recreation stations that have gambling decks, a substantial amount of black market trade has begun using gambling chips instead of credits, and then go to the local rec station and trade those chips in for credit, claiming the chips as currency that the won in a casino. In fact the Malthar is well known to use this method to "clean" vast amounts of acquired wealth. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
February 12, 2012 - 1:36pm | Deryn_Rys, "Chips in the pocket are creds in the bank." |
 February 13, 2012 - 9:25am | Food stamp programs are constantly working on ways to secure themselves because once food stamps hit the streets they are cash. You honestly never heard of food stamp recipients trading them for drugs? Actually, the current system of SNAP are debit cards called EBT (electronic benefit transfer). It is harder to abuse then the old coupon system. As a kid - in the '80s - I remember the old food stamps (and those boxes of government cheese). Even in the Projects, buying stamps off a bum was frown upon as we all knew were the money was going, and it maybe hard to believe for most people, but many of the black families in these neighborhoods hated drug pushers (feeding the bum's addiction, also feeds the pushers), and those same families avoided miss-using government assistance, as you'll never know when you'll need them. Sometimes the deals were hard to pass-up. One of our neighbors encountered a junky offering a thick stack of stamp books (about $200 worth) for $10! The typical going rate is $5 worth of stamps for a dollar. She got some flack for doing it, but its was a deal few of us would pass-up. ______________________ By the way, in Japan they figured-out a way to run casinos, even though gambling is illegal over there. They have Pachinko Parlors that use metal balls as tokens. The balls can be used to trade for prizes, like in Chuck E. Cheese, but their stuff is generally much better: snacks, toys, electronics, smokes, and even strips of gold. What they dont tell you, but is well known, is that some stores (usually the back of a local Jeweler or another building owned by the parlor) will buy the gold for cold, hard cash. In a world where money is electronic and monitored, things like game tokens (like casino chips or receipts*) and valuable keepsakes or collectables (like coins, jewellery, etc.) would make-up the currency in the black market. At least with casino tokens, they are usually harder to counterfeit, like with real money. I can imagine Star Frontiers, where the players have two forms of money: PGC credits for most things, and casino creds for more questionable, off-the-book acquisitions. *casino receipts are used with newer slot-machines, so players dont have to deal with bulky pocket change, or dry, dirty fingers. The player puts in the money, and at anytime between plays, the money is converted to a receipt with the total printed on it. |
February 13, 2012 - 6:17am | Yeah some illegal trade in food stamps and WIC has gone on but the move to a debit system which allows for electronic tracking depresses that, I'm sure ingenious people figure ways around it. I was well aware of the the cashing of food stamps for cash. In the trailer parks in Maine 30-40 years ago it was a going business for people to get their beer money. One my uncle took full advantage of so that he could increase his grocery money by a sizable %. HOWEVER, illegal trade in food stamps, is not the full answer, probably not even a tenth of the answer. The drug dealer doesn't take food stamps nor does the prostitute. It is not only people living in the projects on food stamps that uses the drug dealer and the prostitute but middle class and upper class. A corporate executive is not going to pay a prostitute in food stamps. I like Malcadon's suggestions. a side currency produced by the "casinos" ie Star Play that is non regulated and unable to be tracked electronically. Plus strips of gold or even "gold pressed latnum" this would work and makes a lot of sense. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 13, 2012 - 6:50am | Such casinos funds can only be spent on civilized worlds. Also, if your campaign has the RIM territories there has to be an exchange rate or common currency. |
February 13, 2012 - 7:19am | Such casinos funds can only be spent on civilized worlds.
Are you saying that uncivilized wild planets only accept electronic PGC credits? I'm betting casino chips are just as good and possibly more liquid then electronic credits especially if there is no way present to make electronic transactions. An alternate black currency is by definition to a certain extent uncivilized. Great point about the Rim, need to see to that but I also bet the PGC credit is recognized and accepted. Also, if your campaign has the RIM territories there has to be an exchange rate or common currency. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 13, 2012 - 7:33am | I'm saying non-core worlds with large populations wouldn't have casino chips. I believe it would be reserved to the heavy populated worlds where the money is. However, I do believe these off-the-beaten-path worlds would have a form of gambling, it might be local currency, trade-goods, jewels, etc. Just a thought, ymmv. |
February 13, 2012 - 9:35am | referring to the treasure tables in the Star Frontier's URS we have the following alternate forms of wealth... Government Bonds Trade vouchers (handed out by corporations allowing the holder to purchase goods through a writ that is backed by a Corporation) Casino chips (as already mentioned) Personal Vouchers (basically an electronic check book) Planetary Credits or PCs (on world Currency in 1, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 500, and 1,000 denominations) Bank Vouchers (issued by banks based on the value of the collateral put up by the individual) And Corporate Vouchers (Like Bank vouchers but issued by a corporation) Gems and Precious minerals Most of these are used daily by individuals who are uncomfortable with the Pan Galactic corporation backed Universal Credit. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
February 13, 2012 - 10:22am | One would think that backwater worlds would be looser with how they trade, with local currency that is exchangeable with PGC credits, use of casino tokens/credits within the local black-markets (even if the world has no casinos, and the possession of off-world casino tokens is highly incriminating), and local authorities who may turn a blind-eye to illegal activity - for the right "gratuities." Although, I can see the last two being a problem for major worlds too. Then again, I'm also use to hearing about backwater establishments (from a trucker who moves between northern California and Washington) that are beyond federal control (by the grace that their counties take no federal aid), who would sell you an old German AA-gun (with shells) like it was an overs-sized lawn ornament, highly explosive weapons without any license (for home security and loud celebrations), any type of drug or substance, and a night with a broad or livestock of your choosing (yeah, their are mostly a bunch of crazy-ass hicks and skinheads that go out there). |
February 13, 2012 - 1:46pm | I listed six things as examples and everyone latched onto the food stamps. Yes Casino chips can be used but the point is anything which is limited and has a value applied to it can be used. Remember there are not casinos everywhere or do you think the Family of One has slot machines in their chapels? I like the PGC gift cards because those guys are everywhere and they have legitimacy attached. "Welcome to Mallory's World Madam please open your bag for customs inspection." "Of course Good Neutral" "Excuse me Madam why do you have 2,000,000,000 credit value Happy Jack's Casino chips in your luggage? HQ send some back up." Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
February 13, 2012 - 1:53pm | @ratT: I just didn't see how those options would work with the local hooker or drug dealer. John- "Hey Baby, do you take gift cirtificates?" I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 14, 2012 - 12:19am | @ Malcadon, I used to have a Pachinko machine. I bought it with my paper route money back a long time ago. I heard they were used for some type of gambling but never really looked into it back then. It got lost a long time ago. Is that why the ball were written on, for amounts or certain prizes? I will have to look that up. One thing people could trade are favors. It happens all the time today. Even for prostitution, gambling debts or whatever. Favors for the drug dealer, favors for the pimp, favors for the ....? Blackmail at its best. |
February 14, 2012 - 1:56am | OK I mentioned the food stamps as one of several examples but not the only thing which could be used. Anything of value and easily traded is the key to illegal activities. High end spy novels like to use Bearer Bonds but that is for the multi-million credit transaction. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
February 14, 2012 - 3:07am | @Karxan, looking into it, I found out that parlors mark their balls so people dont use them in other establishment. They are all equal in value (1 ball = 1 game or 1 token credit). The first time I have seen a Pachinko machine was at a shopping mall back in the '90s. It was on a counter at a store that sold a lot of odds and ends. Kids tend to play with the machine until the owner placed it at the back of the shop. I thought it was neat, but I had no idea they were used as slot machines in Japan until a few years ago, when I seen it talked about on a TV program about gambling. _____________________ I have given it further thought, and I found a simple answer to using untraceable funds in the Frontier: money laundry. For example, what looks like a normal food store is really a front for blackmarket goods. You buy unmarked and unlicensed explosives, but the receipt notes a pricy case of wine. If caught, your financial record looks clean until it is scrutinized or compared with the shopping habits of other criminals found with illegal items (can you say "plot hook"?). One of the things that always felt missing from the Advanced AD rules is a PSA set for those with street-smarts and underworld connections. They could have Street Skills like: "Identify Local Colors", "Street Talk", "Fast Talk", "Find Info", "Fence Goods", "Find Blackmarket Goods", and so on. Its like the Biosocial PSA, but for cool the characters.  |
February 14, 2012 - 8:33am | @ Malcadon, I would tend to use PER ability check for a street smarts check. Or default to a skill from the optional spy PSA. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 14, 2012 - 9:26am | @Malcadon, Yes money laundering which is the first thing I said in this thread. Thanks for bringing it up again. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
February 14, 2012 - 10:21am | Hey, I know; money laundering. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 February 14, 2012 - 12:05pm | I also do not like credits being the only source of financial transactions. ”Republic credits? Republic credits are no good out here. I need something more real.” I am sure that the barter system is alive and well in the frontier. Some game sessions may look a little like those old computer games where you have to accomplish task B and receive payment C in order to trade it for item D to give it as payment for purchase A. Anything of value can be traded and so many things have value as ratt pointed out. The question is finding something of common value. The more consumable the item, the more common its value will be. A Picasso may be worth millions but it would be difficult the get a meal out of it if you lived in a 3rd world setting. Gems and jewels are nice, but I would think metals would be better. Gold, Silver and Copper are still highly utilized metals and thus have value beyond mere coinage. I had a character that always tried to keep a small stash of bullion just for rainy days. I also would expect that planets would have their own hard currency as Deryn mentioned. Remember the outrage recently when banks and lenders were going to incorporate higher transaction fees? Imagine a charge placed on transactions across the galaxy. People would want a way to circumvent that. A few years ago when the economy started to tank, communities along the east coast started printing their own money. They got around the constitutional restriction on that by calling them vouchers. I doubt that it was a very successful venture for them, but it would be more probable in the frontier. I am reminded of Ice Pirates. Didn't they barter with gasoline in Mad Max or something? (post apocaliptic shows weren't my fav). I could see canisters of O2 on stations having value. I have vauge memories of a sci-fi show (wing commander?) where a bowl of strawberries and cream was used as payment. Anything of value can be used but it would be best to have something that is less perishable than fruit and more liquid than gasoline...sort of. Thus, I am a fan of the Gold standard. |
February 14, 2012 - 3:08pm | And in the opening season of Star Trek Voyager it was water and I will say it again. You establish a currency system by using something of value. Right now we are used to money but cash only represents a value placed on it by the international trading of that currency among banks and governments and the belief the government printing it can support it. Now think back and you younger ones look this up, as Inigo said the gold standard was the standard because money used to be backed with gold and to a lesser extent silver. These metals had value because of rarity but not so rare they could not be accumulated in large quantities. One reason people in old times preferred gold and silver coins to paper money; the established value of the metals. The barter system would be alive in many of the new colonies but probably for trading specialty items and some luxuries, let use not forget that starting colonies would at first not need any money as they would be socialist. When the goal is to survive until established telling people they can't eat as well as others because they don't have as important a job is not going to get your colony off to a good start. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
February 14, 2012 - 6:10pm | And in the opening season of Star Trek Voyager it was water and I will say it again. You establish a currency system by using something of value. Right now we are used to money but cash only represents a value placed on it by the international trading of that currency among banks and governments and the belief the government printing it can support it.
Now think back and you younger ones look this up, as Inigo said the gold standard was the standard because money used to be backed with gold and to a lesser extent silver. These metals had value because of rarity but not so rare they could not be accumulated in large quantities. One reason people in old times preferred gold and silver coins to paper money; the established value of the metals. The barter system would be alive in many of the new colonies but probably for trading specialty items and some luxuries, let use not forget that starting colonies would at first not need any money as they would be socialist. When the goal is to survive until established telling people they can't eat as well as others because they don't have as important a job is not going to get your colony off to a good start. I wish we could tag content, maybe on the new sf.us site. :-/ Anywho. Great info for the Colonization Workshop project. |
February 15, 2012 - 12:09am | @Malcadon, Yes money laundering which is the first thing I said in this thread. Thanks for bringing it up again. Actually it was near the end of all the examples  , and after the stolen basket story, I totally forgot everything else - I was laughing too hard.And in the opening season of Star Trek Voyager it was water and I will say it again. You establish a currency system by using something of value. Right now we are used to money but cash only represents a value placed on it by the international trading of that currency among banks and governments and the belief the government printing it can support it. The funny thing is that H2O is one of the most common elements in the universe, and can be be gathered in large quantity without matter replication. But you know aliens have to come far and wide to steal our water supply - even the ones with some absurd allergy to it (I watch way too many alien invasion movies! LOL). |
 February 16, 2012 - 10:44pm | The simple statement is electronic credit transfer causes an electronic trail of normal transactions... soothing the honest people into thinking they are secure, and scaring them into behaving. for everyone else, and the technical savvy professional... it changes nothing. business as usual just with slightly rearranged gimmicks... dishonest professionals will keep the how-to's to themselves and disguise it under false complexity just to keep everyone from cutting in on their score... hounest professionals will not discuss it because they don't want to look like they understand (guilty by knowledge) and don't want to contribute to the delinquency of potentially dishounest people... therefore - skill streetwise to know who to deal with, and skill-forgery or computer-use to transfer credits... a special-skill -; lets call it "credit-splitter" -; might be available for true professionals to fully avoid traceability - where to put it I am unsure [atm]... but it is reasonable to assume a specific professional skill is available in the area of splitting accounts and shifting credits around electronically... to a person one might call a Side-banker operating a Side-bank that has dubiously legal, but far from illegal, connections to criminal, corporate, and government agencies... what makes it all even worse is that some of these are also connected to Sathar intrigue, and that gives them more possibility for hiding trails and manipulations of the system... where by they become part of a larger shadow society... and are entrenched like "made-men" ... tsk tsk tsk... never trust a rich Vrusk with no obvious corporate connections... next is the frontier stand-by... barter and goods... and non-electronic script.... in a frontier economy some standard of hard portable transfer is inevitable, it may not be backed by any guarantee from a particular government, but will be backed (to some degree) by someone... and whats more it will be openly legal - even in places where it is (openly) discouraged or refused. Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
