 January 8, 2012 - 3:49pm | Looking for some explanation here. Many things in Star Frontiers were presented with an air of atmosphere and not a basis in fact. One of these areas I feel is most abused is the description of SpaceFleet Enlisted. Although the officers of the Spacefleet represent some of the finest individuals in the Frontier, the same cannot be said for the crews of Spacefleet ships. The enlisted members of the fleet come from all walks of life. The fleet always is short of crew members, so the requirements for enlistment are not rigorous. No checking is done regarding a crew member's background or abilities; consequently, a great amount of galactic riffraff has found a home in the crew's quarters of Spacefleet vessels. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 January 8, 2012 - 6:09pm | First off the Space Fleet of SW1 cannot really be compared to the Space Fleet of latter decades because its not Space Fleet. Space Fleet had not existed and at SW1 it was the 2nd Common Muster. The ships of that fleet were a different animal entirely. From my read of history it seems to me that the statement in KHs is plainly based on or modeled after the conditions in the British navy of the 19th century. If I had to bet on what the authors of KHs was thinking that would be my bet. However that doesn't do anything for us if we treat the KHs statement as canon and accurate. So you're question should still be answered. Before I do answer it though I'd like to point out that your percentage of enlisted vs officer may not be vallid. For example in the Russian Air Force of the Cold War era the ratio of officers to enlisted was vastly different to that of the American Air Force. Where my father's position was across the board filled by Staff and Tech Sgts. in the Russian Air Force the same position was being filled by officers. Enlisted were not being trusted with actual maintenance on air craft. If we accept the statement in KHs that the enlisted are rift raft then they are not going to be allowed to muck up the expensive equipment by working on it and therefore the percentage of officers is probably much higher. Secondly, are you using the order of battle in the campaign book of KHs? I would not consider that the OB of SW1. Nor even the full OB of SW2 there should be more ships in it and statements in KHs suggest there are more ships out there in numerous patrol groups. Finally, its like 80 years between the two wars and I think the low number of ships and the recruiting of rift raft to fill enlisted positions represents down sizing of the Space Fleet budget for at least 4 decades before SW2 because of a general feeling that the worms aren't coming back. The worms being aware of this sentiment (through their agents) and the draw down in Space Fleet's force spring their attack. I think they have a good reputation, its just that budget cuts have forced them to lower standards with the enlisted. They've never had an mutiny. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 9, 2012 - 6:53am | See that is part of the problem I have with their statement. When you have budget cuts and less ships and staff you raise the standards for those seeking to get in not lower them. In times of war when you have casualties and expansion you lower the standards. Personally I am for dropping that statement and going with Spacefleet as an elite and special group seen as the first line of defense against the Sathar threat. They are supported by the public and entertainment media if not always by the UPF government in funding realms. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 9, 2012 - 7:10am | Perhaps its a situation where the government has mandated that this job gets this pay and no one wants the job at that pay, since they can get more in the private sector and thus Space Fleet ends up with dregs, forcing it to use more and more officers to do more of the sensitive work thus increasing the cost of the payroll and on and on... I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 9, 2012 - 8:30am | See your point according to current numbers for the US Army, an E-4 married with one child is paid below the poverty level. If Space Fleet did not have college scholarships, family benefits, enlistment bonuses or any other incentives then they would not get the higher class of people they are looking for. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 9, 2012 - 9:07am | I guess I'm loathe to get rid of that statement because I have a fantasy of getting to run a big ship game with PC's as officers and the tension of internal conflict can't hurt. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 9, 2012 - 8:00pm | "Dregs of society" might be pushing it, but I would think this stems from Spacefleet's overall position of "neutrality" in the Frontier. To put that in perspective, let's take a look at the Dramune Run module. Here we have a civilian ship with a claim that a crime lord intends to start a civil war between two local planets in a system. Spacefleet does not exist to hammer out inner system squabbles, yet they dispatched some craft to investigate anyways just to make sure it wouldn't spill over into neighboring systems. Now let's say the UPF has several detachments available for this task of info gathering...with the closest being the frigate Shimmer captained by Fleet Lieutenant Bo'raq Sho'raq --- a dralasite who was born on Inner Reach. Obviously this isn't the best choice for a position of neutrality as our dral Bo'raq is highly likely to take sides with his home world. So UPF High Command opts to dispatch the destroyer Melinda McCoy whose vrusk captain has no interest in the system. Extra added bonus, the assault scout Dirk is with the McCoy, thus ensuring this civilian ship will not be able to elude the UPF craft. Now it stands to reason that Spacfleet enlisted will be inheriting a lot of dirty work. Never before is a position of neutrality more important than here...the last thing you want is some highly skilled individuals who believe they're more important than the task at hand. "I'm too good for this" doesn't fly. So it stands to reason that some lesser skilled individuals work out better...possessing just enough skill to get the task done. Hence, a crew of technicians to serve under an engineer is not going to be recruited from the top bras of Streel or Pan Galactic, rather they'll take a few degenerates that got discharged from a local hovercycle garage. Ditto with a boarding party...Spacefleet does not want the elite unit that once served with Colonel Louis V. Jameson, instead they might hire on a few local security guards that were entrusted to watch over a warehouse or at best, the Stellar Tower Hotel. In each of these cases the crew will be thankful for a decent paying job while at the same time they will not possess the inflated ego that says "I don't HAVE to do this because I don't WANT to do it"...rather they'll instead respect the higher skilled chain of command who offered the training for this far more lucrative gig. |
 January 9, 2012 - 8:27pm | I personally think they are not getting just low lifes into spacefleet. The fleet is small because the members are slected because of their contributions and want to defend the federation from the sather with many from worlds that have seen or have been told stories of the devistation that the sather have done. |
 January 9, 2012 - 10:32pm | I disagree with the idea that they are Dregs. Now I would go for the idea that they are blue collar working man factory types like you see in the crew of the Nostromo in the movie Alien. The working crew are kind of blue collar while the flight crew are the more officer like. This is the reason why I disagree with the idea of the enlisted crew being dregs. The tech level of Star Frontiers doesn't afford for dregs. Space travel is not casual enough for un-educated, un-skilled, or un-intelligent dregs of society. As an example, in our world, how many people we would consider as "dregs" would survive for one hour in an nuclear powered tin can in space travelling at 1% the speed of light. You have to be able to do math, follow procedures, know your basics handling yourself around a space suit and engineering equipment. Even thought some crew are more specialized than others, even the cook on space ship would have to know how to operate the standard space survival equipment on spacecraft. Now they don't necessarily have to be rocket scientists (no pun intended) but as dregs they just wouldn't survive as spacers. |
January 10, 2012 - 4:49am | I think the issue in KHs that led to this discussion concerning dregs is really one about moral fiber then education. These beings are spacers and could just as easily ended up on a privateer or pirate vessel. Its not that they are stupid or uneducated they just have an I don't give a frag attitude. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 10, 2012 - 6:08am | There are two examples of the highly skilled being thought of as the dregs of society I can think of. First is the wooden ship sailing fleets. The crew members when on shore are often thought of as hanging out in dockside bars drinking and whoring and such. Yes many of them had families and probably went to visit them while in home ports but while away from home port we did get the saying "a woman in every port" The second is the French Foriegn Legion. This group as a rep for taking in anybody but through training and discipline transforming them into an elite fighting force. In both these cases we have two common threads. An officer corp who think of themselves as much better than the enlisted who work for them and a society in which class is very important. This of course begs the question is class an issue in SF? The other sci-fi game Traveller class was very much an issue as social standing was one of your six basic stats. SF did not seem too worried about it but being on the Frontier tends to make every equal more or less. Any thoughts on class in SF? Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 10, 2012 - 6:48am | The situation in Boston in the 1800 was very bad for sailors. They'd get their 3 month or 6 months pay as the ships came into port. They would hit the docks flush with money and the tavern owners would station women of very questionable moral character to try to pull these sailors into their establishments. The goal was to use the women and wine to get the sailor's drunk and stupid (not hard) then roll them for their coin and have the bouncers dump them back at the docks near the next ship scheduled to leave. Poor slobs would be pressed and wake up on board ship penniless for another 3-6 month cruise. This led to the founding of the Mariners House in Boston. The Mariner's House still exists today as a charity just without the religious character of its founding. Now its just a 2 star hotel that provides rooms for any seaman at a rate of $7/night or that was the rate when I worked there. It sounds a lot like the Brotherhood of Spacers cadre that provides a club in most ports. Good point about the class division rat T, but you are right I dont think that anyone would want the social standing ability score like traveller nor a galactic imperium like traveller. We of course have default classes; Presidents, Kings and CEOs as well as clan elders and CFM captains in ifshnit society would constitute a priviledged class. Dralasites have no class what so ever as evidenced by some of them bringing woopie coushins and hand buzzers to diplomatic functions. ;) Seriously though their philosophical and debating bent would evolve a society that places little wt. with class; though the great Mols who found schools of philosophy or the renowned debators would constitute a default class. Vrusk have no class There is only the trade house. Yazirians and humans would have some class structures but again these are probably fluid and not very rigid. I dont see any requirement that Space Fleet enlisted have to be elite. Though this discussion has me thinking about a militia where the enlisted are the elite and the captains are political appointees; political captains much like the political generals that pop up in earth history from time to time. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 10, 2012 - 1:16pm | So we would go with more of a prestige basis than an actual class basis. Something like the A, B, C, D list of actors in Hollywood with alot of what have you done for me lately and what is the total person like. This applied to organizations so Space Fleet's prestige for enlisted is very low while the officer corp is higher. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 10, 2012 - 4:25pm | i agree that education or intelligence doesn't necessary make some one a societal dreg. However, if you go by the I don't give frag attitude. 1. How many appethetic individuals did you see on space shuttle missions - none. 2. Attitude & Survival, when the ship is struck by meteor and is on fire how long will the guy who doesn't give a damn gonna last and further more what crew mate is gonna come to his aid if he has a I don't give a frak attitude. I dont buy it, I would go with the blue collar vs white collar analogy over the dregs vs. the privlledged analogy. |
January 11, 2012 - 5:44am | i agree that education or intelligence doesn't necessary make some one a societal dreg. However, if you go by the I don't give frag attitude. 1. How many appethetic individuals did you see on space shuttle missions - none. 2. Attitude & Survival, when the ship is struck by meteor and is on fire how long will the guy who doesn't give a damn gonna last and further more what crew mate is gonna come to his aid if he has a I don't give a frak attitude.
You just compared NASA to Space Fleet and the problem with that is that NASA only flies one vessel at a time and even then it doesn't stay in space for long. NASA can afford to be choosy while Space Fleet has hundreds of starships and a half dozen to a dozen of stations and fortresses its standard are sure to be more relaxed. At some point space travel will become like sea travel, when there are enough ships going out, enough is known about the dangers and it becomes a common occurrence. Right now only an elite few go into space but eventually everyone will get to go into space. When that happens you will not have everyone in space acting dedicated and elite, quite the contrary. I don't think the statement in KHs is there to say that every moment of everyday there are discipline issues in Space Fleet but rather to suggest the possibility of them if a GM needs them. It would be impossible for the service to function otherwise.I dont buy it, I would go with the blue collar vs white collar analogy over the dregs vs. the privlledged analogy. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 11, 2012 - 5:49pm | You have a point Jed. But I dont agree with that it would be impossible to place better standards on enlisted. If you use our voluntary army as an example, we have problems but for the most part the enlisted are hard working dedicated people. Yes, there will be a lot more ships in the sky but if you think about air travel there are a lot of planes in the air and pilots from all walks of life but all of them have to pass some basic standards to get their license and if they have poor character and poor behavior sooner or later they dont survive or keep their license. In SFKH there may be a lot of people in space but there are also a lot of planets those people come from so the ability to maintain standards isn't as difficult a game of numbers as you suggest. Dregs won't normally bother, and as it was already stated the pay isn't that good...so the motivation would either have to be indentured servitude or desperation. Desperate indviduals may take a chance at anything that would give them a chance...but its just the same chance that they will take an easier route to satisfy their desperation than the difficult life of a spacer. |
January 11, 2012 - 9:20pm | There is always jion Space Fleet or go to jail. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 11, 2012 - 10:41pm | yea that one does work, local dregs conscripted in lieu of imprisonment. I'd agree to that |
 January 11, 2012 - 11:34pm | I like the idea of rough and bawdy sailors in the space fleets. Where the fleets promote themselves like this: ...but you get crazy assholes like these, once enlisted:   (actually, that would be awesome!) In real life, sailors would spend many months at sea in cramped cabins with nothing but other men for company, so when they hit port, they piss their pay away on beer and women, and usually the parties get so out-of-hand, the local authorities get called-out. So yeah, a bunch of drunk rowdy horny sailors get a well-deserved reputation during shore leave. Although, I find this hard to see in SF, as all but Task Force Nova are stationary (to one system) and are close to port. If the Frontier was like a real "frontier" - with lots of unexplored and young colony worlds to patrol - then I would buy the idea. |
January 12, 2012 - 6:08am | Just because your stationary does not mean you get to go dirt side. A space fleet is in space. If there is a space station in orbit then when not on ship the spacers would usually be on it. I think I remember reading about some kind of space force in a module somewhere which pretty much stated this. I didn't realize purple hair made you a troublemaker. Time to go blonde again. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 12, 2012 - 7:20am | I dunno, you can tone down the KHs statement in your game, I'm just not for nixxing it altogether. I think we can strike a balance here: I'm not for total assholes who always cause trouble but by the same token the statement in KHs suggest that it is the officers who are the most dedicated to the job, it goes against the grain with the American experience of the military where the NCOs are the keepers of the tribal wisdom and have to keep the green as baby shit Lts. from totally screwing the pooch and everyone else in the process but it is not unheard of in the history of human military experience that this situation could be reversed. I would leave it as Space Fleet is prone to having some discipline issues among the enlisted, that many are dedicated but the situation is that the service looks to retain long service officers not enlisted (perhaps that is an influence from one of the other races like the vrusk and the yazirians supported it as it smacked of respect for clan elders to them). Finding a middle ground that modifies the KHs statement without killing it is probably the best path IMO. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 12, 2012 - 3:09pm | Part of the problem may be we are not going back far enough in history. Think of it more as the Knights of the Round Table. Here the Knights or Officers of Space Fleet are the totally dedicated, live for nothing else, my job is my life people everyone thinks of. Meanwhile the peasants or Space Fleet enlisted are the only there because they have to be, not 100% trained and when is this gonna end so I can go home guys and gals who make up the bulk of the fighting force. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 12, 2012 - 6:25pm | Part of the problem may be we are not going back far enough in history. Think of it more as the Knights of the Round Table. Here the Knights or Officers of Space Fleet are the totally dedicated, live for nothing else, my job is my life people everyone thinks of.
You're not serious right? BTW Malcadon's post contrasting how space fleets are promoted and what you get was the bomb.Meanwhile the peasants or Space Fleet enlisted are the only there because they have to be, not 100% trained and when is this gonna end so I can go home guys and gals who make up the bulk of the fighting force. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 13, 2012 - 12:07am | I think that we have to step our minds back to 1982 and be the writers. They were just out of the period of time where the military was viewed as "not so much our heroes". They had Vietnam fresh in their minds with the draft and the enlisted were not supposed to want to be there. Now 30 years later we know that was not an accurate view but it was popular belief at the time. I don't think this fits for a space faring society that formed a multi-national(planetary) force. Here is something to try: Given that the frontier races live much longer, then the years that one is free to be adolescent are longer. A frontier human can wait to launch until he's in his thirties with no real loss in his life. All the career paths are primed for straight from secondary school to university/trade school. Getting into space to see the frontier takes this path. The mega-corps demand this type of employee. If you are not wanting to go that route then there are the private shippers and cargo vessels, but you really have to know someone who will take you on. Almost literally you need to know a ship captain who will hire you. If you do know a captain he's going to be very strict on you, he can't gamble his livelihood on you so he will push you hard or send you home. So you really want to get into space but money or commitment to school are stopping you and you don't have connections, then you join space fleet. But remember by age statement from above. You have 20 years to get educated and find the right connections, human society is conditioned to this. So it's not expected (at least among humans) to be a committed adult until your thirty. So, our 20 year old human joins space fleet to get into space and he goofs off a bit. Space fleet takes him because he is cheap labor and they know that in a few years he will get a clue and get serious about his life in or out of space fleet, likely out. Those few that don't get serious are likely out as well. This gives an enlisted service that is mostly minimal tour for at least a quarter (the humans) of the personnel. Some get serious and become the ranking enlisted personnel. There is an idea in embryo here but it needs a little more cooking. Not all humans are going to be goofs until 30. And, this doesn't answer vrusk, yazirians, and dralasites, are they considered part of the dregs too? -iggy |
January 13, 2012 - 6:07am | Dralasite get perceived as immature goofs due to the natural bent toward corny jokes and horsing around. With the vrusk company is everything but there are always vrusk that, for one reason or another end up outside the vrusk trade houses. Whether they separate themselves or are pushed out it doesn't matter. Could be that vrusk pirates were smashed by the Royal Marines and some young vrusk are that were being raised as future crew are now cast adrift since no trade house will take them. From these vrusk space fleet draws enlisted personnel. They don't have a real commitment to space fleet because it didn't raise them nor will it care for them when they're old. They simply serve because its a job and beats starving. Yazirians have always had clanless and disinherited and many of these are not raised to honor the moral compass enshrined in the honor code, they too swell the ranks of space fleet enlisted. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 13, 2012 - 6:13am | Since this isn't Star Trek we can consider Space Fleet to be a mix of all races almost equally. At least the big four. If you use the Zeb races or some of the later presented races you need to determine your mix. @ Jed Oh and yes I am serious. Do you consider the peasants who made up the bulk of Medieval armies to be elite or dregs? Where do you think the British Navy Officers got their elite attitude from? They got it from the nobility system which was rooted in those times. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 13, 2012 - 6:39am | Since this isn't Star Trek we can consider Space Fleet to be a mix of all races almost equally. At least the big four. If you use the Zeb races or some of the later presented races you need to determine your mix.
Sure 19th and even 18th century class elitism has its roots there but wretched peasants is not a model or image that comes to mind for this genre, fantasy game sure. There is just too many centuries separation between king Aurthur and the 19th century. I do like Iggy's take on things though.@ Jed Oh and yes I am serious. Do you consider the peasants who made up the bulk of Medieval armies to be elite or dregs? Where do you think the British Navy Officers got their elite attitude from? They got it from the nobility system which was rooted in those times. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 13, 2012 - 8:32am | Didn't like my Medievel comparison OK lets go totally period then. The Soviet Army. Not the Russian Army but the 1980's Commies are invading, The Reds are here, Berlin Wall building Soviet Army. The enlisted rep was so bad there were no volunteers (not enough to really count) only draftees and everyone got drafted. Sure the officers were elite. I mean really elite, Party member elite for most of them. And they really didn't trust the enlisted. Lts were squad leaders. A position held in every other army by enlisted but not trusted to Soviet enlisted. For good reason too. If a private committed a crime like rape (unfortunately not uncommon) and the officers didn't cover it up they would be fired (court martialed same thing). I am not talking the company commander I am talking every officer up to the division commander and maybe higher. These guys were never stationed close to home and in a country with seven time zones and a dozen languages they were not liked where they were stationed. This closer to what you were thinking? Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 13, 2012 - 11:15am | I think I did cite the the soviet army in the thread as an extreme example of a modern army with dregs for enlisted. I think were at the point of finding a middle ground that tips the hat to the KHs statement as well as honors some of the objections raised. Iggy certainly had some good ideas. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 13, 2012 - 12:30pm | The enlisted rep was so bad there were no volunteers
There weren't volunteers because the military reps simply showed up at their doorsteps and said "Congrats, you're enlisted NOW!!!" (cocks the AK-47 as further encouragement)  |
January 13, 2012 - 12:34pm | The enlisted rep was so bad there were no volunteers
There weren't volunteers because the military reps simply showed up at their doorsteps and said "Congrats, you're enlisted NOW!!!" (cocks the AK-47 as further encouragement) I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
