 January 8, 2012 - 8:33am | RE: http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/6098 What sort of government would be created in a jointly founded colony that was intended to promote understanding and peaceful coexistence between four races? Obviously, the view that Port Loren/ Gran Quivera was intentionally founded as a colony to promote cultural exchange and interplanetary business opertunities that should, in theory, promote peaceful coexistence; is reflective of my own take on Frontier history. I'm looking for feed back on what sort of government the four delegations would organize but would also welcome alternate views. I assume that the first government organized is actually the colonial government of Gran Quivera and that the city government of Port Loren actually grew out of the need for better administration as the city grew. Further Port Loren should also be the first Mega City or grow into it over the course of Frontier history. RE: Weapons Controls and Laws, I think that in the beginning of this colony a lot of key areas of law ended up being very eccumenical- or rather what is the lowest common denominator that we can agree on between the four parties, the yazirians would advocate for allowing the carrying of personal weapons, particularly the honor weapons of their race. Dralasites and vrusk might advocate for tighter controlls and humanity would be a mixed bag on that. There might be a concern that the presence of weapons could lead to interspecies fighting in the midst of a misunderstanding. Later on vrusk and dralasites would say, "And we were worried the yazirians might attack us if they could carry their weapons, there more apt to kill each other!" ooops I just openned this thread to being hi-jacked into a gun laws discussion. Oh well, please propose a government before going off on gun control, thank you. Crime and punishment: no capitol punishment or each race decides the punishment of its criminals? If its to be one law code they all live under capitol punishment is probably out altogether or rexerved for only the most heinous of crimes. Socialism and the welfare state: That's a big question- yazirians would see the clan as being the proper forum for social relief, vrusk would see the company being proper forum for social relief, dralasites? perhaps the state and humanity could be a mixed response. I think that the government institutions on Gran quivera would have a very strong retirement plan and pension due to the vrusk influence and the dralasites and humans going along with that. Yazirian looking forward to collecting a fat pension would view it as something he could bring back to the benefit of his clan. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 8, 2012 - 11:13am | One thing we would have to go with is at the time of the founding the four races had not known each other long. They were still feeling each other out culturally. A government would have to been one of committee and compromise. In order to get things off on the right foot they would go with the most strict laws of each culture to start. As exposure and cooperation grew than updates and more leninant laws would follow. Saw this when I watched American Pro-Wrestling on a Hong Kong television channel in the 90's. Asian culture is very modest and does not show alot of skin (forget what you learned watching anime) while European culture does not go for extremes in violence. Took me a while to figure out why half the show was close ups of the audience. Then I hung around and watched Friday the 13th on the same channel. I swear the movie lasted 45 minutes with commercials. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 8, 2012 - 1:22pm | Sorry rat T, got to disagree with you about the most strict laws thing as there is no way more liberal societies like that of the dralasite will go along with the most strict notions of yazirian justice. Far more likely that they find the lowest common denominator but with room for some compromise here and there. In other words the dralasite will concede to capitol punishment for murderers but in return for that concession they will ask for a concession on a point that is important to them. However good point about government by committee. How would that work though? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 8, 2012 - 1:44pm | Ah yes I see that alot, conceding I mean. Like how Europeans allow Islamic Fundamentalists to cut off thieves hands and Americans allow the Anti-piracy laws to be flaunted and anything sold or How pornography laws and marriage ages are standard across the world and of course how what is considered child abuse in one country is of course a God-given parental right in another. Mix all these together in one colony and the four races will of agree to compromise on their basic cultural beliefs and allow things they find offensive, pornographic and/or insulting to their basic beliefs to be flaunted in front of them. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 8, 2012 - 1:50pm | To answer your second question: How would this work? My take would be that each race would send a delegation probably numbering in the hundreds to a central point to work out the differences. Commitees and sub-commitees would be formed with specialists in those areas to make recommendations to a central approving commitee. Now each race's delegation would be different in structure. Human would be a straight forward mix of the various planets they held at that time. Vrusk would be a collection of corporate representatives. Yazirian would be a mix of clans. Dralasite I am not sure of but you should remember they enjoy long debate so possibly they would send their best debaters to insure everything was thought over and discussed properly. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 8, 2012 - 5:42pm | Saw this when I watched American Pro-Wrestling on a Hong Kong television channel in the 90's. Asian culture is very modest and does not show alot of skin (forget what you learned watching anime) while European culture does not go for extremes in violence. Took me a while to figure out why half the show was close ups of the audience. Then I hung around and watched Friday the 13th on the same channel. I swear the movie lasted 45 minutes with commercials. This is a poor example as it was Hong Kong television in Hong Kong so its their broadcast standards. It doesn't represent two different groups coming together its simply Hong Kong doing Hong Kong standards which if fine for them. Ah yes I see that alot, conceding I mean. Like how Europeans
allow Islamic Fundamentalists to cut off thieves hands and Americans
allow the Anti-piracy laws to be flaunted and anything sold or How
pornography laws and marriage ages are standard across the world and of
course how what is considered child abuse in one country is of course a
God-given parental right in another. I appologize for using the word concession when I should have used compromise. Compromise is when both sides give a little to get a little which is usually necessary to get things done in government and its what I described in my example. Concession is when one side simple gives out to the other and that is not a productive way to get things done nor do I endorse it. It is certain that dralasites, if no body else, will strive to find compromises that bring all parties together to find a concensus that can be aggreed upon even if everyone involved is not 100% happy with it they at least can live with it. How would this work? My take would be that each race would send a
delegation probably numbering in the hundreds to a central point to work
out the differences. Commitees and sub-commitees would be formed with
specialists in those areas to make recommendations to a central
approving commitee. Now each race's delegation would be different in structure. Human would be a straight forward mix of the various planets they held at that time. Vrusk would be a collection of corporate representatives. Yazirian would be a mix of clans. Dralasite I am not sure of but you should remember they enjoy long debate so possibly they would send their best debaters to insure everything was thought over and discussed properly. Thats certianly an apt description of how they would go about setting up a government but what would the final government look like? How would the government function? Kicking this around while walking home a thought a occured: What if they came up with a 4.5 house Parlimentary system, one house for each race to debate issues and then a super committes made up of three from each house with two being the majority view and one being the minority view. This super commitee of 12 casts the final vote on an issue. The executive and his cabinent chosen by the Parliment as well. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 9, 2012 - 6:47am | I am going to use the City of Houston, Texas as my idea of how this government would work. The Texas Constitution is one which severely limits government. The City of Houston like the rest of Texas started as a small town with a Mayor and a County Commission consisting of four members. Through interaction at Commission meetings decisions are made and input from the citizens is heard. However as the city grew into one of the biggest in the US government expanded to handle this while keeping the same basic structure. Even if that basic structure is not really suited to handle the much larger size. So the Port Loren government started with a Mayor (first one appointed later elected) with out regard to race and a City Commission made of 2 members of each of the major races. As the city and later planet developed more departments and agencies were added but the top 9 member committee is still the final authority. Since it was put together over time the bureaucracy is very tangled and overlapping and difficult for the average citizen to figure out but still works pretty well. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 January 16, 2012 - 1:54am | iirc, or at least... as I have understood it... Prenglar - Gran Quivera - Port Loren; was settled first by Humans, then the Dralasite who had settled in a system nearby came to debate, then came the Vrusk and after a time became involved in a few border skirmishes out in nearby systems with the Humans there... and finally the Yazirians were added to the official citizenry during the formation of the Council - having been introduced by early pre-PGC interest groups that then formalized under the charter for autonomy - in; new explorations, appropriations, and first-trade contacts, that opened the door for the first official Trans-stellar Mega-corporation and the establishment of the near-by PGC system. Port Loren then, would not likely be influenced heavily by non-human perspectives of law at it's core... but, by the time of The Frontier Charter, Council Foundation, and Declarations of Federal Commonality, may have been sufficiently mixed to allow non-human members of local government, and the "Houston, Texas" model holds significant merit. I have looked for a colony that has had a four-core mutual settlement foundation... none have more than a three-core foundation, and most mixed worlds are only representing a two-core mixed population (plus a few possible minorities) anyway. The Port Loren super-homogeneity, where races of all places are welcome to stop, shop, and set-up indefinatly - as the ideal of the frontier the city that shines, but apparently the light is not a shared ideal by all (or even most) of the frontier in practice. Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
January 16, 2012 - 6:02am | Based on what I read the Port Loren/Gran Quivera beings might have a Roman attitude. At the height of Rome's power what was important was not whether you were born in Rome but whether you had Roman Citizenship which could be earned in several ways. So it does not matter what race you are in Port Loren just that you are one of the choosen few who reside in the most wonderful city in the Frontier and the rest are just peasants. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 21, 2012 - 3:35am | yes... one way to look at it I suppose... I think I have mentioned of a similarity of Prenglar to a political aesthetic of Starship Troopers, and that holds with the Roman Citizenship view also... as does the tendency for Greek influence in much of the human-culture cosmetic... though I would be sure to taper this cultural element, and dilute the Roman socio-political paradigm, with distance from Port Loren - Gran Quivera - Prenglar... Kdikit - Madderly's Star and Golliwog/Clarion - White Light are quite obviously very different from anything in Prenglar, and (equally, if not more) humanocentric (even outright speciesist) than any settlement in Prenglar might be. Prenglar allowing an Ifshnit or Osakar... or even a Mechanon... who has "proven citizenship" to be treated with equality wouldn't surprise me, but on Kdikit it seems unlikely. On K'aken-Kar a Mechanon would likely be viewed with too much (curious) suspicion to be allowed "full rights" as a naturalized resident, and it should be rather obvious that Vrusk dominate politics and society in all areas. Clarion holds to a Human Monarchic Government - even if citizenship is extended to non-humans; title, high official-ranks, peerage, and seigneurial privilege is likely a largely Humans-only-club... Non-humans likely have to make extra effort to rise above serf caste or common status, even though a certain amount of "All for One, One for All" is likely to considerably temper any directly inhospitable and excessively prejudiced treatment or allow natural-citizens to be excluded from some form of representation completely, no matter what the race. Difficult to speak of one system without comparing the contrasts of it's neighbors... Prenglar, otoh, being almost Prenglar-centric and elitist to some degree also would not surprise me, taking a "high-morality" view of acceptance to all "proven citizens", while conversly bearing an "equal opportunity prejudice" to all non-citizen of any species that over-stay their work-visa - this makes sense in perspective. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
January 20, 2012 - 5:55am | OK so you are saying we need to take into account the nieghboring worlds and the cultures which created the initial government. Still once something like a city is created it takes on its own life and usually grows in ways not meant or intended by the creators. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 20, 2012 - 6:20am | So Port Loren grows over time to something the size of RI or whatever size a city has to be to be a Mega city. There are some small towns outside of it but for all intents Port Loren IS Gran Quivera. Does it have a China town district? Which race should be the minority that groups together into a district? Ifshnits so that people have a reason to go to Ifshna Town looking for exotic items? Or Saurians? Or someone else? I would lean against it not being a core fore since they should represent 80-95% of the population. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 20, 2012 - 8:36am | Initially the Core four would have built generic buildings especially public buildings because the idea was for mutual cooperation. Individual living quarters would have been more race specific to give them a better feeling of home. Some specialty shops with "home" items would naturally pop up but since the four races are not segregated these shops would be more grouped by type of shop than by race. Now as other races come in they would build and concentrate in their own areas. Possibly not even in in Port Loren but as a start up town outside of it. This is where we would have our ghettoes which is not necessarily a bad term. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 January 20, 2012 - 12:37pm | I would assume that every race would have their own little town in or around a megacity. Little Italy, Little Havana, Chinatown, Kentucky... |
January 20, 2012 - 1:59pm | I would assume that every race would have their own little town in or around a megacity. Little Italy, Little Havana, Chinatown, Kentucky...
Possibly but I would also think that corporate housing (arcologies) would be integrated. Building on the corporate identity.I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 21, 2012 - 3:56am | @rattraveller yes and yes, consider but that doesn't mean it has to be overly influential... but there-in is the thing, the people will have a self-view that reflects their own individual identity, based on what they do and don't see in their neighbours as being similar and divergent to themselves... sometimes you have to look outward to look into a mirror and see inward, otherwise you have nothing to compare an identity to, and what is just is, and may even go unseen, let alone unnamed. @Inigo Montoya port mega-cities would likely have quarters, districts, and wards... even if they are not "contained" in all cases (in some cases the would be strictly contained), but beyond that the social and government structure of other cities and areas, and how tightly those "culture quarters" are separated, that is a matter of who and where... I would not assume every race however, but all races of local population significance. Say Ken'zah-Kit; there is no reason for an entire clan to move to (let alone be accepted and become naturalized by) that Vrusk colony, and for a Yazirian to be in a position of local government there is more than a little ludicrous, would be strange enough for a Human or Dralasite to enter Vrusk politics with any chance of success even if they had a culture-ward on the Vrusk world to support them... There is already a place or two in the Frontier that shows such conflict in action, and are marked by militant civil-unrest - that Starfleet and Starlaw get involved with only to contain to a single system or planet, not to fight or judge. Prenglar likely has the most open culture quarters system-wide, blending organically at the borders, and diffused considerably as they stretch from the city-core.. but the city-cores themselves are likely very centered around a set of tight-wards and arcologies each with smaller sub-wards for administrative and economical use... The central-administrative district and cultural-center district is likely open to all, and most districts around the Port-district proper are likely a near-free-for-all of culture-clash and cosmopolitan-airs... then there would be the corporate-districts of Gran Quivera and Morgaine's World, and their own sub-wards and culture-districts... sizes, demographics, distribution, and access-freedoms may vary greatly among these corporate chartered holdings... but only associated employees and their authorised families are likely to be found there anyway. Madderly's Star is largely Human and Vrusk, and Kdikit even likely has Four "main" ports and their megacities in addition to a historic port city and central seat of central government... two of the four major port megacities are likely nigh-exclusively Human and Vrusk by population, and the other two are still likely dominated by Vrusk or Human by population demographics and local government politics. Only the central administrative historic old-port megacity of the Madderly's Star central government has any justification of being called cosmopolitan anywhere in Madderly's Star, and even this old-city is an environment made of closed culture-quarters and segregated administrative-wards, with no hope for anyone not of the core-four to find a comfortable park to sit in... and an easy place to find yourself sitting in the wrong park if you are not a local resident to the city. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 January 28, 2012 - 8:22pm | When I first played SF back in the day, I imagined every being was equal except the Sathar. As I got older and relized how naive that was, i really didn't care. I just liked to play adventures on the frontier side of things, politics did not really matter in or out of the game. Now that I am older and getting back into SF, I am wondering what life is like in the cities of the frontier. They never really had a module or article that described that back in the 80's. Except maybe SFAD6. In there, there is unrest between humans and vrusk. I think that having a central metropolitan government would not be too difficult for the core 4 in general. Spacefleet showing they can all work together at something. So like minded individuals from all the races come together to form a central, but not controlling, government. The biggest differences I see are between the vrusk and the other three races. I can see humans adapting to any type of government system. Yazirians, from all the threads I have been seeing would adapt well also. Dralasite, well, I think they were made for politics. Humor and debate they would do well. The vrusk though have a business/hive outlook. They should have a very different outlook to things, I would guess from mammalian species, they are insects. There should be some form of Species representation as well as planet representation. Maybe each race takes a turn at being incharge, some type rotation. The other 3 races could have a veto power over the primary race if necessary with a unanimous vote. I was just thinking though that being species oriented may not work. If the majority of planets are or become interspecies mixed it would be difficult to maintain a species oriented government. I will have to think about this more. |
February 16, 2012 - 9:25pm | I can respect that... but, I come from a perspective where I thought it naive even then... I was trying to make some sense of it from the first time I opened the AD box. I have since had to shift my perspective back from my first impressions and study up on what a Robinsonade really is in a Space-frontier setting. Nowadays, I try to maintain a middle-ground. All the races have built-in xeno-disparity to their psychology and expectations, in often overlooked ways... but even the Vrusk can be capable of appearing all-to-human (or is it that the Humans are capable of appearing all-to-Vruskan) on the individual or small-scale organizational levels. While any biological social-psychology disparity is amplified at culture-wide levels (where a governmental body needs social consensus most), it conversely becomes anthro-pomorphized (xeno-pomorphized?) at individual levels more readily (where players as characters are interacting as; individuals with other individuals - by discursus for immediate results). Plus, those Vrusk look like man-eating bugs, those Yazi look like wild carnivorous animals, and those ... er... is that a walking talking over-sized germ?!? (man I moved into the wrong neighborhood...) {{shudders}} Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
