 December 10, 2016 - 9:54pm | Spent a little time this evening calculating how long it takes for a Knight Hawks ship to accelerate to Void jump speed and back. Using Wolfram Alpha, I put in: "speed under constant acceleration to 0.01c at 9.8m/s^2" which gave me roughly 3.5 days to accelerate from 0km/h to 0.01c. The works quite nicely with the deceleration boxes for Sathar in the Knight Hawks campaign map for Second Sathar War. Using the form, I then put initial speed to 17000mph and recomputed, just to get a feel. It seems if you start from freefall in orbit, at typical Earth orbit speeds, it saves about 13 minutes of acceleration. I also noticed that 12,000,000 km/h is over 0.01c. 0.01c is 10,790,000 km/h... so I am going to read Knight Hawks as saying to jump into the Void, you have to exceed 0.01c and crossover to the void happens around 12,000,000km/h rather than 0.01c. |
 January 4, 2017 - 5:36am | A trained human astrogator would be cheaper, and (bonus) would still be able to plot a functional course by hand if the computer went down.
No, I don't think so. The computer and its astrogation program are required equipment. |
 January 4, 2017 - 7:04am | Humans were doing sophisticated maths long before computers. It might take 10x longer or more, but it could be done. |
 January 4, 2017 - 8:47am | Humans were doing sophisticated maths long before computers. It might take 10x longer or more, but it could be done. Agreed. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 4, 2017 - 10:18am | Humans were not calculating Void jumps long before computers. And taking ten times as long may render calculations during acceleration too slow to use. Since we don't know the nature of the calculations, we can't make that determination. (And then why can't *ahem* computers or robots do it themselves?!) Whatever the case, Knight Hawks is clear. The program is needed. Maybe the astrogation program doesn't just perform mathematical calculations. Maybe it controls all the astrogation equipment. Maybe the astrogator just fiddles with a slide rule. You don't know. |
 January 5, 2017 - 3:44pm | I really wish the cannon had gone a little bit star warsy on this issue. Perhaps not as fast as a Navi-computer but more like 1 hour/ LY of jump to calculate would work well for me. scrap the 1% of light speed and just make it a jump drive field that activates. Sigh. This is something I tried to address with my 'Void Drive' rules: http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/8597 |
 January 5, 2017 - 9:34pm | Regarding computers, robots and Star Frontiers astrogation technology: Assault on Starship Omnicron The starship Omnicron, the pride of the Pan Galactic Corporation disappeared years ago on its first voyage. Recently the ship was found drifting in space... The PGC has hired eight adventurers to "babysit" the Omnicron on her voyage back to a Corporation starport. The ship is being automatically navigated by her computers and robots and this promises to be an easy mission for the "babysitting" team." Joe Cabadas |
January 6, 2017 - 7:08am | Good find! But remember that Omicron was published before Knight Hawks, so the idea that only someone with Astrogation skill could plot Void jumps, apparently dreamed up by Doug Niles, didn't exist yet. Nothing in Alpha Dawn even remotely hints that robots and computers can't fly starships all on their own. |
January 6, 2017 - 8:23am | Then again, perhaps issues could arise when the robot(s) have to deal on the fly with threats or problems, as potentially there could be various things that their programming can't resolve... |
January 6, 2017 - 8:25am | Good find! But remember that Omicron was published before Knight Hawks, so the idea that only someone with Astrogation skill could plot Void jumps, apparently dreamed up by Doug Niles, didn't exist yet. Nothing in Alpha Dawn even remotely hints that robots and computers can't fly starships all on their own.  Joe Cabadas |
January 6, 2017 - 11:06am | Good find! But remember that Omicron was published before Knight Hawks, so the idea that only someone with Astrogation skill could plot Void jumps, apparently dreamed up by Doug Niles, didn't exist yet. Nothing in Alpha Dawn even remotely hints that robots and computers can't fly starships all on their own. ROFL! Maybe we should agree to disagree. Each referee will rule on this to suit themselves. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 6, 2017 - 12:42pm | Jcab747, I'm not looking for the "canonical" answer; I'm looking for the answer most appropriate to what the design team had in mind. I think they had a level of computer and robotic sophistication in mind that isn't directly addressed. When dealing with issues of astrogation, the team that designed Star Frontiers didn't have any concept of astrogation being an especially difficult task, certainly not one that required an ineffable intuitive quality of sentient life. That concept was apparently invented by Niles, and I have no idea if he collaborated with the Alpha Dawn design team to come up with Knight Hawks. Certainly he altered some of the established facts of Alpha Dawn. Whatever. There's a difference between being canonical and being revealing of the through processes of the authors. Much that is canonical directly contradicts the authors' intentions. You guys don't wanna see that, I'll shut up. |
 January 6, 2017 - 11:51pm | The history we have gleaned from interviews with past TSR employees seems to indicate that star frontiers was passed from one person to another so inconsistencies in setting are to be expected. There doesn't seem to be any one team or person that got to stay on the project long enough. -iggy |
 January 7, 2017 - 8:02am | There doesn't seem to be any one team or person that got to stay on the project long enough.
Lorraine Williams made damned sure that would be the case. |
January 7, 2017 - 9:16am | There doesn't seem to be any one team or person that got to stay on the project long enough.
Lorraine Williams made damned sure that would be the case. Even before that, a consistent tactic at TSR would be to have a group of people (2-6) working on something and they would chop it into parts and each one take one. This is whagt happened to Alien Worlds written by Schick and Cook- it was decided it needed a rework and was given to 3-4 other people who due to the looming deadline each took a part and went and wrote it, and then put the pieces together as Star Frontiers AD. As I read interviews and histories about that time I see that its happened again and again. Zeb Cook's intent for star Frontiers was completely different than what we got. In fact he was a little peeved over how it was taken from him and he never did another thing with Star Frontiers again other than give me an interview for the 30th anniversary. I tried to get him to write a little something and that effort fell flat. What was it i just read in the Mentzer interview? I think it was that he characterized the early days at TSR as hack design on a factory scale or something like that. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 7, 2017 - 10:53am | Whatever. There's a difference between being canonical and being revealing of the through processes of the authors. Much that is canonical directly contradicts the authors' intentions. You guys don't wanna see that, I'll shut up. No, I don't want you to shut down. I believe in free speech even if I have a different view. Joe Cabadas |
January 7, 2017 - 11:22am | What was it i just read in the Mentzer interview? I think it was that he characterized the early days at TSR as hack design on a factory scale or something like that. Well, at least they came up with something endearing if not consistent. Zeb Cook did, however, pen a few Star Frontiers stories for Dragon magazine, so it's not like he never did anything again with it. Of course, he might have been ordered to write those stories. Joe Cabadas |
January 7, 2017 - 12:05pm | Of course, he might have been paid to write those stories.
There is no irony to the synonymous nature between those two terms. ;) |
 January 7, 2017 - 1:46pm | Also, I remember in one of the interviews with the designers the idea was to not have everything automated so that the PC's had something to do. That was actually a guiding principle behind some of the desgins. Yes, this could be done by robots or computers or other tech but we need the PC's to be the doers, not the technology. Thus Astrogation requires an astrogator and not a computer. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
January 8, 2017 - 3:37pm | This discussion about parts of the game being handed around might also explain a bit of how Zebs is so different from much of the rest of Star Frontiers. After typing in the entire Zebs timeline timeline for example, it feels to me like a personal campaign log, possibly from Kimber Eastland's personal or inhouse game, more than anything else - which could explain why the Sathar War part is so detailed - they were just running the Second Sathar War from the Knight Hawks Campaign Book and writing down what happened. Much of the rest has a IMSFU (In MY Star Frontiers Universe) feel (to borrow the IMTU from Traveller folks). So, where I think this entire discussion is at the moment: There are 3 "canon" examples of robots that can astrogate: Omicron, Marionette, and Baralou Ap-Reaverchan. Shipboard computers with proper software are still required. The computers don't shorten the time to plot, they are part of it - but the time is measured on Astrogators working hours. An Astrogator with the appropriate skill is still required. An example exists of an astrogator cybot - but its not clear how that cybot really learned starship skills from the text as written. |
January 8, 2017 - 4:19pm | which could explain why the Sathar War part is so detailed - they were just running the Second Sathar War from the Knight Hawks Campaign Book and writing down what happened.
Not really, as written the Second Sathar War is measured in tendays (a tenday time period factors into two of the five Sathar retreat conditions that can be selected), Zeb's measures it over a decade. If you pick away at the Zeb's timeline description of the war you'll find many inconsistencies with canon KH play, starting with the "UPF mining the sector between Cassidine and Madderly's Star" and a Sathar fleet arriving in a mid-point empty void/space area as well. Now we have had several discussions recently regarding jumping into open space versus always arriving at a star, and the rules state the latter so "mining an empty sector" simply is not possible under canon rules. Also noteworthy is the mention of Rim Coalition and non-AD/KH worlds factoring into the ten year war Zeb timeline that simply could not be played with the KH boardgame and transit box map. I could go on, but it's safe to say the timeline version was not any semblence of a portrayal of the original KH scenario. Not that Zeb's ever paid attention to canon writings...why ruin a perfect record?  |
January 8, 2017 - 10:42pm | If you pick away at the Zeb's timeline description of the war you'll find many inconsistencies with canon KH play, starting with the "UPF mining the sector between Cassidine and Madderly's Star" and a Sathar fleet arriving in a mid-point empty void/space area as well... Not that Zeb's ever paid attention to canon writings...why ruin a perfect record? Yes, putting space mines in empty space seems like a waste of time unless the UPF developed some kind of mine that can be sucked into the Void when an enemy starship is passing through subspace. While that would be interesting, they don't seem to have that kind of technology unless they found some Tetrarch devices. Still, it would hit any merchant or explorer who might be taking an uncharted route. As I've noted earlier, from my perspective, some of the Zebs timeline is salvagable but a lot of it is pure junk. Joe Cabadas |
January 10, 2017 - 5:52pm | Humans were not calculating Void jumps long before computers. We've been doing similar things already. It's just calculating curves in relativisticaly distorted space/time, something physicists know pretty well. It may be "wall of chalkboard" level complex, but it's doable. Admittedly a good program could allow it to be done much much faster. And taking ten times as long may render calculations during acceleration too slow to use. Since we don't know the nature of the calculations, we can't make that determination. (And then why can't *ahem* computers or robots do it themselves?!) I think we already stipulated that in theory they could but they are so rare and expensive that human astrogators with more limited programs are less expensive. |
