Aquatic Civilization(s)

Rollo's picture
Rollo
March 28, 2013 - 6:02am
So here's my problem. I want to create an aquatic civilization for a Star Frontiers setting that has some advanced tech but from a realistic standpoint, an aquatic civilization can never exist beyond stone age tech due to the inability to produce fire, thereby allowing for the smelting and shaping of metal. I plan to leave this civilization at a point short of actual space capabilities, but with arts, language, music, etc that are all on a similar level as any of the core races.

There are a couple ways around this:

1) Allow the budding civilization to be helped by an advanced civilization to get beyond that barrier and then they can thrive on thier own.

2) Make the aquatic civilzation amphibious so that they can develop fire on their own.

For the purpose of solving my problem, I don't like #1 above and am somewhat iffy on #2, but it could be done that way.

There is a third way however, but it is considered essentially, science fiction if not outright science fantasy. That would be; advanced tech through bioengineering/biotech. Admittedly, this is the route I'd REALLY like to go. I'd like them to be able to grow their tools, buildings, weapons, armor, vehicles - everything. In this way, they would be far more advanced than the core races eventhough they have no space flight capabilities.

My problem then is this: Will such a thing strain the sensabilities of GMs and players involved in the Star Frontiers universe? It seems to me that it shouldn't be a problem because we already have science fiction/fantasy elements in the game - what would it hurt to have another? Still, I thought it would be best if I asked the community before I invest a lot of time in this even though I REALLY like the idea.

Any input would be appriciated!


Thanx!

~RT
I don't have to outrun that nasty beast my friend...I just have to outrun you! Wink
Comments:

Ascent's picture
Ascent
March 28, 2013 - 9:20am
If the civilization lives around an underwater convection zone, then they could use the emerging lava for smelting.

Of course, there's also the option that the civilization is not naturally aquatic. They could have moved to the water to protect themselves and genetically enhanced themselves and live inside dome cities under water.

But then again, they would not need a smelting process. The oceans are rife with creatures whose bones and shells can serve as weapons and armor. Then there's the matter of genetically modifying such creatures to produce anything they want, including diamond-hard shells. It is a known fact that water-based organisms are the way to go if you want to create organisms that can bond just about any kind of molecule you please. All that is needed is time and backing to develop.

Also, fire didn't get us past the stone age. The human mind did. The claim that control of fire is what distinguishes us from the beasts is hyperbole. What distinguishes us is our capacity for carefully thinking out our way, which leads to invention. We don't need fire to invent. We only need knowledge, guess work, the ability to control tools and an absurd amount of patience that only humans have. If we never controlled fire, we would simply have gotten here through other means.
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TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
March 28, 2013 - 10:01am
+1 to the lava vents.  I had the same thought.

Also, write up the race how you want it.  Getting community input and feed back is great but in the end it is up to you.  You're not going to please everyone so just make the race as good as you can how you like it and put it out there.  Those that want to use it can, and those that want to ignore it have that option as well.
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Rollo's picture
Rollo
March 28, 2013 - 1:37pm
Trouble with the lava vents: the water immediately cools the lava to something in the neighborhood of 450 degrees - meaning that it is only suitable for melting stuff like lead or gold. To further complicate the situation concerning lava vents is that, in order to utilize them, the person in question would have to be close to them. To be close to them would necessarily mean that that being's cells would be very quickly destroyed. True, certain marine creatures have adapted to life around volcanic vents, but they are always things like tube worms or bacteria - apparently these types of organisms simply do not have the capacity to eventually become intelligent.

All that aside, I don't particularly want to go that route anyway. :D

And I agree Terl, that whatever I do is never going to please everyone. But it would be nice to try to please a majority so that whatever I end up with at the end of this process might add to the community as a whole. So that's all I'm trying to do - if a majority of people posted here saying that my idea sucked, then I'd change it in an attempt to broaden the appeal. In the end, I want to increase the exposure of Star Frontiers and that doesn't happen if I put forth something that isn't popular. :)

Regardless, two replies so far and two votes for the initial idea - so things seem to be going fairly well at least. :D
I don't have to outrun that nasty beast my friend...I just have to outrun you! Wink

jedion357's picture
jedion357
March 28, 2013 - 2:07pm
I suspect that you wont use this but; Mentalism based tech is another way around the issue- but again strays into science fantasy.

EDIT: Interesting setting idea: ruined city in underwater setting- ruins are always fun and the water environment adds a new twist.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Rollo's picture
Rollo
March 28, 2013 - 3:30pm
You're right that I won't use your suggestion Jedion, not because I don't like it mind you. But because I've already used it and need something differant. :)

As far as your setting idea, that is indeed where I intend to go. The race in question will be an extinct race. I won't complete it (read; no stats) but I still need to flesh it out. Their cities will be left empty, functional but run down.
I don't have to outrun that nasty beast my friend...I just have to outrun you! Wink

Karxan's picture
Karxan
March 28, 2013 - 5:45pm
First thing that popped in to mind was thermal vents also. But to your point Rollo, there is the heat factor. I like Ascents thoughts on the biotech side. Your goal of making it biotech oriented is a good one. There are many ways to take the tech, be high tech, and still not ever achieve space flight. Sometimes our ideas of what is fantastic now will be the science of the future, we see it in everyday  even now.

Go with your ideas on what you want, TerlObar is right. Put it out there and anyone can take it or leave it.

jedion357's picture
jedion357
March 28, 2013 - 6:17pm
Rollo, I've recommended this before and will do so again, novel by the name of "Engines of God" is a sci fi and archaeology themed story ie no war fleets or space opera with dark political objectives just a good mystery of what happened to the aliens known as the "Monument Builders" and why. I think the author's name is Jack McDevitt or something like that and i read another novel by him that was a murder mystery that lead to a first contact. Good stuff, especially Engines of God (sort of rifting on Chariots of God). and one major story arc included archaeology in a flooded temple so you get you aquatic business.

Speaking of flooded landscape, what if the dead civilization is 90% under water? In the novel the world was slated for terraforming and thus the archaeologist had to hussel before the drill teams were finished drilling down into the ice caps and planting nukes the were going to be used to jump start the terra forming process.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
March 28, 2013 - 7:13pm
One theory is that dolphins and whales jioned other mammals on land and then went back to the water.

Try using that but with a little later in their technological development. Maybe "radiation from space" made life on the surface unlivable so they built undersea cities and then either genetically altered or naturally adapted to living underwater.

Also remember besides fire for smelting later civilizations need electricity which also does not do well when underwater.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Rollo's picture
Rollo
March 28, 2013 - 7:35pm
Thanx for all the input guys, it helps a lot!

I'll look for the book Jed, if I can get my hands on it maybe it'll help with my project. :D

The cities of the extinct race may end up being 100% submerged as they may wind up being completely aquatic. Now I am still kicking around the notion that they could be amphibious so that there could be some dry parts of their cities for the PCs to wander about in. That would give a nice, eerie feel to the overall theme I suppose. Would have to come up with some dangerous amphibious creatures in that case. Will have to think on it further. :D
I don't have to outrun that nasty beast my friend...I just have to outrun you! Wink

jedion357's picture
jedion357
March 29, 2013 - 4:05am
that's what that author does with his books, the mysteries are just eerie even after you learn something, you are still guessing till the big finish.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Rollo's picture
Rollo
March 29, 2013 - 8:26am
I was thinking I would run into a problem if I made the extinct race amphibious because their biotech was being planned as being living organisms that required their water environment in order to survive. I plan to give the PCs full access to this biotech assuming they find some and figure out how it works, etc. I wanted to limit the off-world availability of this particular biotech by limiting it to an underwater environment while at the same time, giving full biotech access while on-world.

I was thinking that making the race amphibious and then making the biotech strictly aquatic wouldn't be right. So the thought was to make the race strictly aquatic. It just occured to me that I can make the biotech amphibious - but only on a limited basis (for a couple hours at a time) and preserve the limiting factor that I wanted to build into the technology.

This would make it more flexible as far as the 'creep factor' that the GM can weave into the narrative. Funny how rediculously blind a person can be sometimes. Not sure why it took so long for that simple idea to pop into my head. lol  Too many thoughts flying around up there right now I guess. :P
I don't have to outrun that nasty beast my friend...I just have to outrun you! Wink

Ascent's picture
Ascent
March 29, 2013 - 2:20pm
The ancient Greeks built an information storage device (Von Neumann device; a.k.a., computer) without any need of metalic conductors, made mostly of wood. Though it had metallic parts, metal was not necessary if they could use another durable element. With improved technology, no doubt an aquatic race could eventually produce computers more effective even than the latest solid state technology.

Also, there are non-metallic organic compounds that can resist heat better than metal and without any smelting. So it is not necessary to restrict them from space travel. All they need is underwater propulsion to get them to the surface and then from there they can ignite fuels. (They may have developed without the need of fire in a completely aquatic environment, but that doesn't mean they would never learn how to produce it for propulsion.) But then also, where there is an absence of one tech, creativity finds a different way. So even if they never develop the ability to ignite fuels, they could come up with a means of space propulsion that we might never conceive of. You could describe it in vague or mysterious terms. Perhaps they learned to manipulate the laws of physics sans fire.

But an aquatic species would have a bigger obstacle than fire to overcome in lifting a craft into space and conducting space warfare, because of the tonage of water. Though perhaps they would go the route of wearing water masks in order to reduce weight.
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jedion357's picture
jedion357
March 29, 2013 - 11:25am
What if the biotech takes for granted the presence of certain compounds present in the water? They can be chemical/mineral or biochemical.  This then become the limiting factor in that the bio-tech works but not without the missing element.

If its mineral based then the tech could be taken off world or measures could  be take to supply it but if biochemical in such a way as to be unique to the world then the the biotech operates out of water and or off world for X amount of time per device- larger devices might work longer out of water than smaller.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Rollo's picture
Rollo
March 29, 2013 - 2:31pm
The only real reason to limit their tech is to keep the game balance as it is. Really though, everything I've done so far is pretty much like what we already have - just a differant type of tech. Maybe there isn't a real need to limit it. Though I do kind of like the concept of the weapons being living organisms that live in water (Amphibious? Maybe...I'm starting to lean that way anyway). This would mean that in order to be transported off-world they would need to be stored in 'aquariums' and if taken to a planet used in an out-of-water setting, they would have to be returned to their tanks every couple hours. Could be fun actually. The trade off, they don't particularly require ammo (with a couple exceptions).

Here is a list of some of my intial thoughts for some of this civilization's weapons, they may change:

Ranged Weapons:

Wgt(kg)

Damage

Ammo

SEU

Rate

Defense

Range (PB/S/M/L/E)

Resonance Pistol

2

4d10

None

---

1

Sonic

20/40/60/80/100

Resonance Rifle

4

8d10

None

---

1

Sonic

30/60/90/120/150

Spine Pistol

1

1d10

20 shots

---

4

Inertia

5/--/10/--/20

Spine Rifle

2

2d10

20 shots

---

4

Inertia

5/--/15/--/30

Defensive Weapons:

Wgt(kg)

Damage

Ammo

SEU

Rate

Defense

Range (PB/S/M/L/E)

Ink Diffuser

1

None

None

---

1

Sonar

5/--/15/--/25

Displacement Weapon

1

None

None

---

1

RS Check

5/--/10/--/15

Melee Weapons

Wgt(kg)

Damage

Ammo

SEU

Rate

Defense


Resonance Knife

1

4d10

None

---

1

Sonic


Resonance Lance

2

8d10

None

---

1

Sonic


Resonance Sword

1

6d10

None

---

1

Sonic


These values assume these weapons are being used underwater. The values would change if used out of water.

The point here is that there really isn't anything unbalancing - so maybe there really isn't a need to limit them except where limitations would realistically exist. The sonic weapons for example, are more potent underwater but out of water they'd loose some of their damage capabilities; maybe reduce them by a d10.

Anyway, further info on the weapons listed above - just intial thoughts, things may yet change.

Spine weapons:
pistols & rifles.

This creature has an 'ammo' orifice which must be filled with sand in order for it to be able to compact and create the 'spine' ammunition. Once created, the creature may violently expel the needles using a hydraulic (when underwater) or pneumatic (when above water) action.

The creature filters microbes out of the sand for food. The sand 'spines' are actually waste material.

Resonance weapons:
pistols, rifles, knives, swords, lances.

The sonic properties of these weapons may only be used once per turn. It is a natural ability of the base creature and does not therefore, ever need to be recharged/reloaded.

The following smaller devices wrap themselves around the barrels of the above-detailed ranged weapons.

Displacement Weapon:
Disorients and causes lost actions – target(s) are tossed about in a forceful wave.

Only useable underwater.

Ink Diffuser:
Squirts enough ink into an area to cover 25 square meters. Takes 2 turns to fully deploy and then dissipates 8 turns later. The ink gun can only fire twice before it will need to naturally recharge – it takes one full hour to recharge for each time it was fired.

Only useable underwater.

Hey, if anyone has anythng to add, go ahead and post it. I'd be happy to toss your ideas in. :D
I don't have to outrun that nasty beast my friend...I just have to outrun you! Wink

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
March 29, 2013 - 2:44pm
Looks pretty good.  Although you need a regen rate for the spine weapons, say one spine shot an hour or something like that.
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Rollo's picture
Rollo
March 29, 2013 - 3:02pm
Quite right Terl! :D  I'll add that. Here's something else I'm considering writting up:

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/06/underwater_guns

"Perhaps the most intriguing hint of where the underwater arms race is headed comes from a 2005 U.S. patent granted to Thomas J. Gieseke, a Navy scientist at the Naval Undersea Warfare Center. The patent proposes a "high-velocity underwater jet weapon" that fires a stream of high-velocity liquid "bullets" -- fine grains of metal or sand that form a cavity more efficiently than solid rounds."

From his patent abstract:
"An assembly, a system and a method of use for producing a pulsed jet used to carry a high velocity jet of fluid through water. The energy of this jet is to be used as a weapon against undersea targets. The assembly includes a pressure chamber, a manifold, and a nozzle. In use, the pressure chamber is filled with fluid and a pressure is generated within the chamber by injecting and igniting fuel adjacent the fluid thereby forcing the fluid out the nozzle. The forced fluid is directed to create a high velocity jet of fluid. The fuel can be ignited repeatedly to produce follow-on jets, each impacting the preceding high velocity jet."

Effectively, a sand gun. It shoots a grain (or multiple grains) of sand which cause a supercavitation bubble; the bubble then becomes a liquid bullet. The thing would be as effective as a bullet fired from a traditional firearm. 
I don't have to outrun that nasty beast my friend...I just have to outrun you! Wink

Ascent's picture
Ascent
March 30, 2013 - 12:33pm
Reviewing thoughts.
View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write.
"It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi
"That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi
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Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
March 30, 2013 - 10:31pm
In my reverse-Volturnus trilogy adventure (where the players portray themselves as pirates ransacking the Serena Dawn and hunting down the survivors) I had a side-bar scenario "Star Port One" at the end of the dry canal where the PC-pirates take a boat out into the sea and encounter gilled Ul-Mor (that I dubbed "Sea-Mor" for oack of a better name).

It worked out seeing as the Volturnus races were low-tech (save for the advanced Eorna/mechanon tech)
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Rollo's picture
Rollo
March 31, 2013 - 6:17am
Shadow, did you use any underwater settings and whatnot? If so, what rules did you use/develop for the various weapons your PCs used and for their gear? I have a couple of sources to draw from for inspiration/information but admittedly, those sources are few and far between - seems this type of setting isn't all that common as an RPG adventure theme (SF 'Going for a Swim', Gamma World 'Rapture of the Deep' and an old Champions modual 'Sourge from the Deep'. So it looks like I'll have to come up with most of the underwater rules governing movement, encumberance and combat on my own.

Here's another thing I'm mulling over, but not being much of a technical kinda guy, I'm not terribly sure how to handle it.

Star Frontiers/Knight Hawks space ships underwater. It's my understanding, that even though a spaceship is airtight and would thereby be capable of being underwater, this fact doesn't necessarily mean that that space ship will be able to actually function underwater.

Two things I'm considering (don't know if there's anything more than this):

1) Propulsion. I assume that nuclear would work underwater but I'm not so sure about Ion or chemical.

2) Hull pressure. Seems to me that a ship designed for space would not be designed to withstand the hull pressures underwater at depth.

This means that the PCs may end up having to have a space ship that transports them to this planet be specifically constructed so as to withstand an aquatic environment - meaning, they are aware of the planet and it's environment before getting there. This will necessarily dictate certain parts of the storyline and so, I need to hash all that out. Anyone have any input that would clarify this?
I don't have to outrun that nasty beast my friend...I just have to outrun you! Wink

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
March 31, 2013 - 10:03am
Rollo wrote:
Shadow, did you use any underwater settings and whatnot? If so, what rules did you use/develop for the various weapons your PCs used and for their gear?

The setting was an underwater cavern with interspersed air pockets. As for weapon/equipment rules, I adpated the vacuum rules from SF/KH stating oxygenated chambers for projectile/gyrojet weapons (a modification that was available before setting out) albeit ranges and damages were halved when underwater. Some items simply wouldn't work, such as magnigoggles in conjunction with the scuba masks, and others mandated modifications for underwater use as well (such as the scanners in the envirokit).
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Ascent's picture
Ascent
March 31, 2013 - 11:40am
See the article "Going for a Swim" in the Dragon Magazine PDF for rules for contracting the bends, underwater combat, and useful aquatic equipment and weapons. See the article "From Freighters to Flying Boats" in the same PDF for aquatic vehicles and aquatic vessel movement and combat rules.
View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write.
"It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi
"That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi
Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild)

Rollo's picture
Rollo
April 17, 2013 - 12:56pm
Ok, so swimming seems to be an issue that hasn't been adequately tackled for SF. In 'Going for a swim' the rate is 10 m per turn regardless of race or ability (as it is in SFAD). In 'Jetboots Don't Fail Me Now!', it is different for all races and abilities - but I just calculated an average Vrusk using that method as being able to swim at 10 m per turn. Neither system sounds right to me at all. Does anyone happen to have a resource that I've missed that details this for SF or has anyone else done any work in this area? It looked like a thread was started here to hash this out, but it didn't seem like any definitive conclusion was ever reached.

I like the idea of having differing rates for different races and abilities. In the 'Jetboots Don't Fail Me Now!' article I think that the author was on the right track and for most of the entries it seems to work. But not so much for swimming. I like using STR+RS to help determine the rate as that makes sense to me. I think that the system may work if the multiplier in the table was adjusted.

Here is an example of the 'Jetboots Don't Fail Me Now!' method:

The MRM is simply an average derived from STR and RS, then divided by 10 with all fractions being rounded down.


Next, find the base movement (swimming) value of the race in question. If the race in question does not appear on the table below, simply determine what the value would be by comparison or, if you are the creator of the new race, then this number would be whatever you feel is appropriate.


Base Movement Values by Race (Swimming):

Race

Swimming per turn

Swimming per hour

Dralasite

2.000

0.250

Human

2.500

0.250

Humma

1.600

0.200

Ifshnit

1.000

0.125

Osakar

2.400

0.200

Vrusk

2.500

0.250

Yazirian

2.500

0.250

Sathar

2.5

0.375


And finally, multiply those two numbers to find your movement (swimming) rate.


Example:

An average vrusk has an MRM of 40+50/2=45/10=4.5=4. Finding the per turn multiplier in the table we find that a vrusk's number is 2.5. 2.5x4=10


I don't have to outrun that nasty beast my friend...I just have to outrun you! Wink

Rollo's picture
Rollo
April 17, 2013 - 12:58pm
Meh, maybe I'm just overthinking it. There's nothing particularly wrong with the 'Jetboots!' article I guess - it's all in how you view each race's swimming ability and not everyone is going to view that the same. Guess that's what my hangup is.

Maybe I should just shut up and go with it. :D
I don't have to outrun that nasty beast my friend...I just have to outrun you! Wink

bossmoss's picture
bossmoss
August 14, 2013 - 6:18pm
In the "Well World" books by Jack Chalker, there are lots of aquatic aliens.  Many are low-tech, but some are high-tech and a few even have their own spaceships.  I adopted a few of them for my own campaign.

@Shadow Shack
I also used aquatic Ul-Mor in my game.

jedion357's picture
jedion357
August 14, 2013 - 7:04pm
bossmoss wrote:
In the "Well World" books by Jack Chalker, there are lots of aquatic aliens.  Many are low-tech, but some are high-tech and a few even have their own spaceships.  I adopted a few of them for my own campaign.

@Shadow Shack
I also used aquatic Ul-Mor in my game.
Good lord I read Chalker so long ago i cant remember it- i should look it up at the used book store.

I particularly like the uplifted dolphins in the Uplift saga as a high tech space ship using aquatic species.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
August 16, 2013 - 11:42am
ok, in one G.I. Joe show, there was a group called Cobra-la. They were an organic based society. They had the spine/needle guns you talked about. They used jellyfish-like creatures as airships. Some actions required using other creatures; example: have an acquatic dome with a tube worm that could be used as a manipulator for a magma vent. It does not need to think, just do what it is told. I like your organic idea for an acquatic race - it's possible.
They even used a type of stalk/plant with spores, as a type of ICBM. It used gas to launch, I believe. This could be something to launch a craft or satellite into orbit. For re-entry, the organism may have layered, hard shells that could shed upon re-entry. I'm not suggesting the tech would propel them from one system to another but, you can get them out into their own system. You could design the planet as an outpost. The party would need to go to other planets in the sytem to find the homeplanet.

just food for thought.

Rollo's picture
Rollo
August 19, 2013 - 7:59am
Thanx for all the input! :) I've completed this project and moved on to other stuff - but if I ever re-visit this setting in the future I'll have some other ideas to add in. Thanx! :D
I don't have to outrun that nasty beast my friend...I just have to outrun you! Wink