 August 25, 2012 - 4:26pm | Ships get lost, become derelict or sail away like a cosmic Flying Dutchman. 125-10PF Hundreds of exploration vessels are lost during this time. 32-26PF Thirty two exploration vessels are lost trying to map the Lesser Morass. The above statements say hundreds which must be somewhere in the area of 200 ships and then the second statement specifically accounts for 32 of them in a particular area. This is a lot of ship over the course of a century and this is just exploration craft. One has to assume that piracy, misjumps, sathar activity etc must account for even more ships that are not exploration craft. I would expect that exploration ships are prepared to handle tough situations and thus the number of non exploration ships that are lost must be at least twice again as many as the exploration ships so that on the low end we must assume 400 non exploration craft for a low total of 600. This is excluding lost military ships lost during war which might carry a designation of "presumed lost with all hands" However during peace time lost military ships will be counted in the total. Also the numbers quoted in Zebs is only for a part of the total timeline and we should assume that from the perspective of year 111 FY that the total number of lost ships must be closer to 1000. Now we should also consider the Yazirian Exodus and their entrance to the Frontier after 3 of the core four had established themselves. Prior to their Exodus they must have sent out explorers and lost some. Lets call it 6-10 and blame that range of numbers on spotty records. 900 years ago when the Sathar discovered Volturnus and the eorna who had a space faring civilization with some sort of extensive space based infrastructure and industry (that is the only explanation of the eorna egg ship). I like to presume that eorna explorers stumbled onto the sathar and that led to the fateful Day of Doom. so there could have been any number of lost eorna ships out there of about 900-1000 years of age but the number would likely be 8-16. Klikk lost artifacts from 700 years ago- clearly they were a space faring civilization with advanced technology that the Frontier races have not duplicated (the massive war tank). Impossible to speculate on numbers of lost or derelict klikk ships that could be stumbled onto without further hard data on the klikk but it could be any number as well as other military depots or dumped cargos out there to be found. Certainly the sathar must have lost ships from time to time- Mutiny on the Eleanor Mores module provide evidence of one such occurrence. like with the klikks its impossible to speculate on numbers. Saurians are a space faring race that have faired poorly against the sathar and were forced to go "BSG" to save their population. Likely they lost some ships before contact with the sathar and many more since contact with sathar. Speculation puts it at about 60-100 but the vast majority of them would have been destroyed due to sathar activity its just that their ultimate fate is uncertain. It is reported that the zethra found, repaired and operated some ship belonging to some other race and this allowed a group of them to depart from their planet. It is unknown who built this ship but clearly they were able to recover and operate a lost derelict ship. This does not factor in the Rim but since the ifshnits are explorers par excellance my guess is that their numbers are lower then the UPF's though they have probably lost more ships due to war with the sathar as their first contact with the UPF happened at the time of what the UPF called the First Sathar War and they had already fought with the worms many times prior. I think all told we can guess-timate a number of approximately 2000 lost ships out there waiting to be found. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 25, 2012 - 4:31pm | Reasons a ship goes lost: 1. misjumps and cant return, either due to accident, low fuel or some other cause 2. Equipment failure prevents return 3. Hazards destroy ship or kill crew 4. Hostile action 5. intentional activity of crew- looking to hide or run away Derelict or signs of life? the Robinson Rule is the propensity for shipwrecked and marrooned survivors to establish for themselves a future in an inhospitable loctation base on Robinson Crusoe and Swiss Familly Robinson. Below I will rate ships that get lost for the Robinson factor. this factor is based in part on: organized leadership, size of crew and supplies on the ship. in the case of one or two man craft there is a high Robinson factor due to the romantic image of one man surviving against all odds with perhaps his Dral Friday for companionship and the one or two man craft is essentially the exception to the Robinson Rule. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 25, 2012 - 5:25pm | Fighters, hvy shuttles, runabouts, Thruster Class yatchs: present a endearing image of the crashed Japanese plane on some deserted Pacific Island, Enemy Mine (movie), and a Harrison Ford movie I cant remember the name of with a plane crashes and they use pontoons from a Japanese plane to get air bourne again. Note i would consider a fighter as void capable since it obviously could accel to void speed with its obvious atomic drive. This class of vessel has a high likelihood of becoming lost and derelict due to problems like damage, misjumping and low fuel. it has a High Robinson factor of its lone or pitifully few crew surviving for a time but not past their lifetimes unless a breeding pair is present (Blue Lagoon myth). This class of vessel could possibly be repaired and flown away from planet though great lengths of time would make this unlikely. Exploration Vessels and scout ships. This class of vessel engages in dangerous activity that often leads to these ships being lost. they are typically small enough to safely land on a planet and therefore could conceivable take off again if the issue keeping the ship lost is rectified. They have small crews which would cause them to have a low Robinson Factor but their crews are highly organized and highly resourceful which bumps their Robinson Factor to medium. Pirate vessels. This ships are not always well maintained and seek out hidy holes away from civilization thus making it very likely that they would become lost and derelict. They however have larger then normal crews so that they can put a prize crew on board a captured priseship. Finally pirate captains only become and remain pirate captains because they rule with an iron hand; this give them strong organization and the large crew makes them have a High Robinson Factor (movie refference: The Island). Also their ships are often smaller and thus there is a high likelihood that it might be fixed, refueled and flown away. Freighters. Reguardless of size freighters that get into trouble often lack the ability to self rescue. Their crews are small and they likely lack the neccessary materials to respond to the crisis facing them. Large one obvisouly could not land and if they did they will become a crater. Landing assets like a cargo shuttle, lifeboats and pods can reach the planet but the large freighter often becomes an empty flying dutchman in orbit or the outer system. they have a Low Robinson factor and are more likely to present some form of mystery to the discoverer. small frieghters can land and if they have only one surviving crew then the Robinson factor kicks back up to high. They may hold a rich treasure in their cargo hold that can be recovered and sold. Passenger liners. these ships are tragedies waiting to happen. they are often too large to land and the passengers outnumber the crew. so while the crew may represent organized leadership it is not likely to prevail on the mob. Low Robinson factor and high chance or flying dutchman. Possible recoverable valuables especially if the ship has a cargo hold plus the purser's safe is likely to hold portable valuables. Mining ships, often too big to land but likely to have shuttles. High chance of some form or recoverable asset from the ship but low robinson factor. Ag ships, high Robinson Factor but unlikely to be able to land, crew will have to adapt gardening methods to hydro ponic and 0 g methods and rely on solar energy collection for electricity once fuel runs out. Mine layers: usually to large to land in order to be able to carry effective mine load. if crew evacs to planet they have a moderate Robinson factor. Ship will have an extensive load of munitions which could be valuable for recovery or dangerous to the slavage ship. Small Military ships: able to land, small but highly organized crews have a moderate Robinson Factor. warships may carry dangerous ordinance that can be salvaged. Medium military ships: not normally able to land but in the interest of story a seriously hot shot pilot might just set one of these ships down but it will never lift off again as it was not intended to do such an activity and massive structural damage will occur. its far more likely that such a ship will become a crater or a flying dutchman. Large orgainzed crews give this ship a high Robinson Factor. high likelihood of explosive ordinance that can be salvaged. large military ships: ship can become a flying dutchman in space and the very large organized crew has a Very High Robinson Factor. Exploration craft encountering the crew from a lost military ship can expect their ship to be commandeered or confiscated. Pirates will attempt this as a matter of course and any one else could be expected to attempt this based on their motivations. Age and time- the Law of Entropy will ensure that most ships of any age of lets say 1-10 years will be in poor condition and difficult to fix and use. Ships of 10-40 years will likely only be good for salvage. ships of 40-100 years are only going to be good for salvage. Ships over 100 are of interest to archaeologist or scrap metal merchants but otherwise difficult to find much of value on them though there are always exceptions. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 August 25, 2012 - 6:11pm | I would expect that exploration ships are prepared to handle tough situations and thus the number of non exploration ships that are lost must be at least twice again as many as the exploration ships |
August 25, 2012 - 8:26pm | I get you your point shadow, but I think that exploration crews train for it and prepare for the unknown better and that another ship that gets into trouble is really up a creek. I think that all things being equal its a wash. and the presence of piracy will ensure a big jump in ships getting lost. I still think that the total number of ships that are potentially discoverable will be between 1000-2000. That number is just a best guess but think its a good one. Ultimately, highly trained and dedicated personnel will not be volunteering for exploration missions if their death was a forgone conclusion. Enough have to survive for most explorers to believe that it wont happen to them. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 August 25, 2012 - 9:00pm | I've heard tell that subspace buoys are placed in the "corners" of the Frontier Sector that allow lost ships (with the proper gear) to triangulate their position in case of a mis-jump. Most explorer ships are equipped with "hardened" backup life-support as they tend to be stranded in remote parts of space for a while. Can you say "ST:Voyager"?  I also believe you would find more than the Core Four, Klikk and Sathar ships in the Frontier Sector. The possibiliries are endless to encounter other space-faring races. I believe the main reason there are dralasites, vrusk and humans densely packed together (the yazirians were already around this area of the galaxy) is due to a "void magnet". This area of space tends to pull in ships. |
August 25, 2012 - 9:03pm | A SOP (standard operating procedure) for boarding incommunicable ships might be a cool article. It's was probably standardized by Clarion Royal Marines (Space) and adopted throughout the Frontier. |
August 25, 2012 - 11:10pm | Sure, no doubt there is a decent number of missing ships out there of both varieties (exploration & non-exploration). With the age of exploration over long ago, disappearing ships are now of the newer non-exploration variety. I'm just saying you're not going to see a loss of 32+ ships in one area such as what happened at the Lesser Morass. It's simply taking more time for that same number of ships to disappear, and yes time probably hs them on equal numbers or more by now. But I would mildly disagree on the part about "experienced individuals not volunteering if death is probable." Death isn't the big obstacle, it's the disappearance. Exploration is risky business, and an exploration team is pretty much assembled from what few volunteers the team can get. Even the KH rules description of Exploration SHips (p.8) says 10-20% of them are lost, take a d10 and 1-2 = it was nice knowing you. I'll cite the Volturnus trilogy as an example...the first one was lost and as such there weren't exactly massive lines forming at the employment center for the second one, and that was for a known jump route (at least known by the exploration crew, suffice it to say they weren't spit balling the jump coordinates). After all, doesn't anyone question why it was so easy for newbie adventurers with newbie skills to become a part of that team?  Risk is what keeps the applicants away. Anyone willing to assume the risk is elligible for the job.(which is actually a hole in my reverse Volturnus adventure, as the players are rejected for that job before being recruited by the Star Devil...reality dictates any applicant would have been received) So I would concede that given enough time, the whole of non-exploration ships would eventually catch/surpass the totals from the Age of Exploration. If you're playing near the end of Zeb's time line (which you quoted for the source topic), then yes, it would probably be on par. |
August 26, 2012 - 8:56am | I'm just collecting dara and feed back with a view to putting together an aryicle on lost ships. First consideration is are they likely and i think yes. But aftrr that there are so many different pissibilities due point of origin, size and purpose of ship, age of ship. My ultimate goal is to write a GMs resource article to aid in putting together an adventure along these line. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 26, 2012 - 1:41pm | I have a little to offer on the various ship types you listed, but I'm off on a mission so I'll hit that when I return. |
August 26, 2012 - 7:30pm | Okay here goes. Fighters Note i would consider a fighter as void capable since it obviously could accel to void speed with its obvious atomic drive. Something I have long maintained as well, although there are several restrictions that can be easily enabled. One being "jump governors" that prevent the drive from accelerating past jump velocity. The other is what I like to call a "biological jump governor", meaning the basic fighter craft lacks life support so the pilots can only fly as long as their spacesuit life support permits them...thus restricting lengthy bouts of flight such as jumping. The latter can be used to explain many missing fighters --- the pilot gets lost or separated from the convoy and drifts around until his LS runs out. Damage can have the same effect, say the MR gets knocked out and the pilot simply flies straight or drifts, again until LS runs out. Or the drives get stuck in accelerate mode and it just flies until reaching jump velocity, never to be seen again as it gets lost in the void forever. Exploration Vessels --- as the KH manual suggests, 10-20% are never seen again. Granted there isn't much left to explore in modern Frontier times, more so if you go by Zeb's Guide where all but five or six stars are known/discovered/inhabited...let's face it there really aren't many places left for these things to get lost in and if one disappears, it's simply a matter of "Okay, it's in one of these six unknown star systems, no doubt you'll find it there." Yet another flaw in my favorite book of baloney.  Pirate vessels --- Don't forget about mutiny. Granted I would say pirates are somewhat more familiar with the unknown regions, utilizing them as getaway zones or hiding spots. Still, I would treat them as exploration craft when seeking out such spots...10-20% of pirate ships get lost while looking for hideouts and safe refuge points. Freighters & Passenger liners --- Two classes of craft that really have no business straying from the known travel paths, although freighter captains may risk jump to get cargo to a destination quicker so they are more apt to get lost under such scenarios, but a liner would never risk jump if their crew wishes to maintain a good reputation for future business. Mining ships --- another class I might treat as exploration craft, considering the potential for prospecting in undiscovered locales...but again only for those owners wishing to stray from the norm. Most stick to the known/occupied systems prospecting in the asteroid belts or airless worlds insystem. But I can see the occasional owner thinking outside the box and exploring the unknown systems for rich deposits to avoid wildcatters and competition, and for such craft they easily fall into that 10-20% nice-knowing-you category. Ag ships --- Going by Zeb's Guide where all but 5-6 systems are known/occupied/civilized, these craft would be pretty obsolete. Any other scenario, well they're not the type to stray from known travel routes so misjumps/risk jumps are highly unlikely. They're not paid to get it there right away, if a world needs food that badly they'll hire an independant freight hauler for the job or...better yet, learn to hunt and harvest their own food in that time. Mine layers --- stick with a fleet, otherwise they are pretty much a system ship per se entrusted to defend their homeworld. Potential for loss is very low, unless they risk jump with their assigned fleet. |
 August 27, 2012 - 10:59pm | Jedion, I like this topic. You did forget about Gilligan and the Skipper. Now that is a way to get lost. Another good example though of a ship wreck scenario for your passenger liner is the TV show LOST. As SS said, passenger liners would not stray away from known routes. But, an space anomoly could somehow pull a passenger liner off course and they would get stranded far away from normal shipping lanes. I think a great idea for a flying ditchman type would be to have a large military vessel go drifting into space due to battle damage. The crew could survive and form a little floating colony in their ship until they ran out of supplies and LS. It could be discovered by a pc group and they could learn things from the crew logs or from investigating the strange things left behind. w00t: You do realize your subspace bouys are how the sathar keep finding you right? Jedion, I agree with SS that there probably are less lost ship occurances in the modern Frontier than from the age of exploration. I think there are valid examples, klikk for instance, of lost ships being found. So, which way does this go? Creating an adventure plot to find one of these or an adventure plot for the pc's to go through? Your figures for the amount of ships is probably a good estimate as I am thinking about this. But what a cost for the planets to lose so many ships and crews. 1-2 thousand ships lost. |
August 28, 2012 - 7:21am | The bouys offer a protection net, they record ships In the area. Kinda like an early warning system. |
 August 28, 2012 - 8:56am | Jedion, I too like this thread. Just a couple of thoughts to toss out. Lost doesn’t mean that they took a wrong turn. When an aircraft goes down, it is considered lost until more information is gathered concerning it. It may have crash landed. It may have diverted while incommunicado. It may have smashed to pieces against a mountain or be crushed in the depths of the ocean. The days of hot shot pilots are long past and air travel is safer than cars. Yet every few weeks we read about another “lost” air craft. I personally like the idea of those boring planet exploration survey mission being spiced up by finding small populations of stone or iron age human civilization (?) spread throughout the galaxy. And it helps to explain why the party is constantly finding the clichéd old wrecked craft buried into the surface of this recently charted planet. |
August 28, 2012 - 10:19am | I wasn't aware of spain doing that. i suppose that Space Fleet would swoop in and lay claim to sathar and Space Fleet vessels when found. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 29, 2012 - 8:19am | Military wrecks are legal deemed as tombs, therefore treasure hunters are not legally allowed to plunder them. The exact same concept wouldn't give space fleet ownership military wrecks belonging to other governments. However, it could easily take ownership of all things sathar...well, because they already do.  Do you suppose the same would apply to megacorp security (military) vessels? If not, I can see a neat game angle having a party salvage and use a corp vessel after fighting for (and winning) the right to it through the admiralty. The Corp is ticked off. It's not just a financial loss, but an insult to their pride. The havoc that a corp could rain down upon a party is...exciting. |
August 29, 2012 - 11:24am | Corporate ships would fall through the "tomb" clause and be open for salvage. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 August 29, 2012 - 11:57am | Corporate ships would fall through the "tomb" clause and be open for salvage. Contract mercenaries could be an effective revenge tactic though if the 'offended' corporation wanted to send message to junkers, though... |
August 29, 2012 - 2:06pm | Corporate ships would fall through the "tomb" clause and be open for salvage. Contract mercenaries could be an effective revenge tactic though if the 'offended' corporation wanted to send message to junkers, though... Though corporate military ships might not be considered a tomb, I'm betting that the mercenaries that crew them take a different view. In fact I heard a story about a mass grave for British soldiers who fell at the Battle of Bunker hill that was discovered when some construction was done in Charlestown. The bodies were just dumped in the harbor. Buddy of mine that is in to American Rev war reenacting ended up with the skull of one because one of the construction workers present save it and figured he'd like it. I have yet to confirm the veracity of this story but one of the "townies" i know from Charles town said, "Oh yes." but he's prone to talking a lot and I like to see something in print. At anyrate I can see salvagers just dumping bodies into space and mercenary buddies of the deceased taking a dim view of that. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 29, 2012 - 6:09pm | On a corporate angle, what would prevent one corp from salvagin another's ship for data? Mercenaries or not crewing a ship, another corp would love to have any information on another one. SpaceFleet would probably want to keep data out of megacorp hands and use UPF law to keep their ship off limits. |
August 29, 2012 - 11:31pm | Any data worth protecting would have an appropriately skilled protector in the form of a decent crew. In other words, those top secret data/files destined for Hilo Headow's eyes only would be entrusted to a level 6 astrogator and engineer (or the best ones available to say the least) to ensure they get to their destination, and said data/files would be downloaded into the computer of the nicest/newest craft available...which would no doubt be accompanied by an escort craft or two. Which isn't foolproof by any measure, but I would think any corporate craft on the verge of being lost forever or on an uncontrolled collision course etc the crew would purge/erase such files as the crew realizes they will soon be drawing their final breaths. |
August 30, 2012 - 6:00am | @ Shadow: or there are programed failsafes that purge/burn the data like anyone tampering with the system/safe and failing a "deal with security" roll triggers anti-theft routines in the computer or safe. Though from an RPG adventure standpoint thats bad- one failed roll kills the point of the adventure. so there is a tomb clause for salvaging military ships what if salvagers find someone alive on board a ship- then its not salvage op its a rescue op; not sure but I believe that's how it works in the real world. So the salvagers think they're getting a big payday and there is someone still alive on board tempatation for the morally challenged to just space the survivor and say, "Nope, we found no one; ship was empty." Real possibility like the opening of Aliens when Ripley was in cold sleep and SF has Storage class berths on many ships. Adventure seed: PCs travelling by storage class are woken up by rogue salvagers who tell them this is a salvage op and that they are being transfered to the slavage ship. Make LOG roles for all players and who ever passes hand them a note that they remember if people are found alive then its a rescue op not a slavage op and the salvage crew only gets a small insurance check not the value of the salvaged ship. For this to be a salvage op everyone on board must be dead. 1. PCs must overpower salvage crew and obtain weapons- they need to find out what happened to their ship. Find out what year they are in (they've been in cold sleep a long time) and figure out whats going on. The salvage crew part was just the set up for the adventure the real adventure is the PCs dislaced in time and being ducks out of water in a strange new world they think they know. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 30, 2012 - 7:45am | Adventure seed: PCs travelling by storage class are woken up by rogue salvagers who tell them this is a salvage op and that they are being transfered to the slavage ship. Make LOG roles for all players and who ever passes hand them a note that they remember if people are found alive then its a rescue op not a slavage op and the salvage crew only gets a small insurance check not the value of the salvaged ship. For this to be a salvage op everyone on board must be dead. 1. PCs must overpower salvage crew and obtain weapons- they need to find out what happened to their ship. Find out what year they are in (they've been in cold sleep a long time) and figure out whats going on. The salvage crew part was just the set up for the adventure the real adventure is the PCs dislaced in time and being ducks out of water in a strange new world they think they know. Great idea. I was actually thinking that if I ever wanted to advance the timeline - this would be a great way to do it. |
August 30, 2012 - 10:29pm | See, even as a teen watching Aliens for the first time, I had one thought about this: Adventure seed: PCs travelling by storage class are woken up by rogue salvagers who tell them this is a salvage op and that they are being transfered to the slavage ship. Make LOG roles for all players and who ever passes hand them a note that they remember if people are found alive then its a rescue op not a slavage op and the salvage crew only gets a small insurance check not the value of the salvaged ship. For this to be a salvage op everyone on board must be dead.
1. PCs must overpower salvage crew and obtain weapons- they need to find out what happened to their ship. Find out what year they are in (they've been in cold sleep a long time) and figure out whats going on. The salvage crew part was just the set up for the adventure the real adventure is the PCs dislaced in time and being ducks out of water in a strange new world they think they know. Any salvage team seedy enough to turn a salvage--->rescue back to a salvage op would kill the survivors. No loose ends. Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead. Ripley was a sole survivor on that salvage op, and with a seedy salvage team it could have been a very short movie. That was my first thought on that opening scene way back when and it hasn't changed since then... So that needs to be thrown into said adventure plot...an NPC or two would have to be killed just to get that ball rolling, and let the PCs know that they are next and only being kept alive for the sake of possible complications with the salvaged ship. Salvage op leader with gun to astrogator PC's head - "Your computer has some info that could be valuable on the black market but we can't get past the security measures. What's the password?" "Oh, you're willing to die to protect that password? Let's see if you're willing to allow someone else to die to protect that info." <pew pew, NPC drops dead> "Now, WHAT IS THE #!¢&-ing PASSWORD?!" |
August 31, 2012 - 1:55pm | If you are cruel and twisted like I am, sometimes you just like to 'stick it' to you players for the sake of making a game memory...and thinning out their bank account. Imagine a situation where where the party finds, claims and hauls in a rich prize. Then when it looks like they are about to cash in, it is discovered that this ship that they so boisterously have laid claim to is somehow contaminated and is now a huge threat to society. Now they have to get the mess cleaned up and pay for the proper disposal and perhaps even pay numerous fines. It's sort of like snatching up some foreclosed property only to find that 40 years ago it was used as a toxic waste dump site. All former businesses and people connected to said property are dead and gone. It's sort of like my kids; the last one to touch it is the one responsible to put it away. This sort of stuff happens in real life, especially when a local or state government would have to foot the bill. They will be desperate to make it somebody else's problem. While I see this a just a sweet moment to savor, it could be a hook or even a part of a game plot. |
August 31, 2012 - 6:17pm | Wow. Uh...to realistic for my taste :p |
February 4, 2014 - 8:03pm | photos of 25 haunting ship wrecks http://twistedsifter.com/2011/04/25-haunting-shipwrecks-around-the-world/ enjoy I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 5, 2014 - 8:21pm | Pity that the USS Arizona doesn't get an honorable mention. |
February 5, 2014 - 8:33pm | Pity that the USS Arizona doesn't get an honorable mention. Yeah I agree with that sentiment but since all the pictures of the wreck I've seen in the past 30 years are from above the water and not from divers, I'm betting that divers cant get close to photograph it and this leads to it not being a dramatic looking wreck which leads to it being overlooked. Pithy quotes about history, ignorance and repitition come to mind. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 5, 2014 - 11:11pm | I don't know. I'm fine with the Arizona getting left off from lists if it means that it's not a leisure dive spot. Graveyards, and particularly war dead, deserve a bit more consideration. There's a national memorial around that area so it's taken care of and those boys can rest undisturbed. Not an attack on anyone, I just think it's too soon for such things. |
February 6, 2014 - 12:40am | The list was Haunting shipwrecks and derelicts. The scale of death on the Arizona certainly qualifies it for the adjective haunting. I dont advocate divers disturbing, I simply think that the situation as is keeps this wreck out of the imagination. There is no haunting photograph of the wreck that can grip the public imagination. Which may be just as well. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
