 January 16, 2012 - 7:07am | Your right about the forced change
of things. The Russo-Japanese War of 1912 showed where warfare was going
but no one participating in WWI took the hint. Not even the Russians.
So what didn't the UPF learn from SWI before they went into SWII? That is an excellent question! We should start a thread on that.
However we also need to understand what equipment and assets were used
by the sathar as well as extrapolate probable doctrines they would have
used. No doubt SF-2 will be a mine of information in this as the
volturnus campaign will be fairly close in time to SW2 and their
doctrines will not have changed all that much. And since they were a
space faring race 900 years ago when the destroyed Volturnus' society
the first time their equipment does not change much or if it does it
changes at glacial speeds RE: discussion of sathar robots http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/5424 I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 16, 2012 - 7:18am | I think we can catalog sathar military equipment from the magazines and modules and use this as the base for sathar war equipment at the time of SW1 and into the first 4 decades of the period between the wars. Then I think we should consider how much tech sathar agents would have stolen during the two wars and what the sathar may have added to their war machine. The difference between the two is the blind side that the UPF gets whacked with. For instance in SF-2 Star Spawn of Volturnus laser rifles were a common weapon in the hands of the sathar so a Ground Fleet General expecting to face sathar troops could assume that he's going to face that in an up comming engagement could order the quartermaster to equip all the troops with albedo screens and albedo suits but... the sathar happen to have equipped their troops with different weapons. and the albedo defenses will do nothing in the coming engagment. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 16, 2012 - 9:23am | Catalog got it will take me a couple days since I have some other priorities right now but others should jump on it. One thing we might look at is just like WWI both sides have pretty much the same equipment; ie laser turrets, assualt rockets, laser rifles, tangler grenades, etc but we all know that all equipment has some unique characteristics based on what country manufactured it. So what are teh differences between UPF and Sathar equipment? Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 January 16, 2012 - 6:14pm | I would guess that because of their physical limitations Sathar would rely on power belt packs or back packs as opposed to using power clips, and even if they did use power clips, I think that sathar weapons would not be able to be powered by standard (UPF) clips. For tha matter perhaps sathar weapons have a simple squeeze trigger in the weapon's pommel, handgrip as opposed to a trigger, and because sathar have no shoulders, I don't think that they'd have rifles designed for use by non-sathar, except maybe the Humma (with some trouble) "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
January 16, 2012 - 7:38pm | @ rattraveller: here's a start (its in the sathar project to keep it easy to find later): http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/6119#comment-23834 @Deryn rys: excellent observation: perhaps the pelethora of laser rifles is that the sathar prefer it since it has no recoil just for comfort sake. seeing as how combat and warbots can have machine guns they do have the tech they just dont like using it. I also like the idea of a squeeze trigger and no safety on their weapons. I also think that we should try to make sathar power devices different from UPF devices- change the amount of power they hold so that they seem different. It seems that weapons that are defended against with skien suits and inertia screens are not unknown to the sathar its just that they perfer to use the laser rifle. This sets up a situation that I mentioned before where a Ground fleet general could order laser defenses for his troops but the sathar have brought a mix of sonic and gyrojet weapons which also lack recoil. Ground fleet troops get slaughtered in this engagement. There's one possible answer to Rattraveller's question. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 17, 2012 - 6:34am | @Deryn good point there. Currently the M16 rifle and the AK74 are both 5.56mm rifles but there ammo is not interchangable. M16 ammo is centerfire while AK74 ammo is rimfire. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 17, 2012 - 11:08am | @Deryn good point there. Currently the M16 rifle and the AK74 are both 5.56mm rifles but there ammo is not interchangable. M16 ammo is centerfire while AK74 ammo is rimfire. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 17, 2012 - 11:47am | OK so we have the Sathar weapons just like the Orc weapons. Mass produced and generally cheap so not something our heroes want to pick up and use unless forced to. Since the Sathar kill themselves why has it never been mentioned that possibly thier weapons self destruct if tampered with. They need a special sonic key to open or the internal components melt or something like that. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 17, 2012 - 1:58pm | OK so we have the Sathar weapons just like the Orc weapons. Mass produced and generally cheap so not something our heroes want to pick up and use unless forced to.
A little devious but I like it. Since only some sathar (presumably higher caste) have the explosive suicide implant their rifles double as a suicide device exploding like a frag for a number of d10s equal to energy in the clip but if unpowered there is a capictor that holds about 1SEU that never fully discharges even when the weapon is shot empty that way there is enough residual energy for a 1d10 blast for a technician attempting to open one.Since the Sathar kill themselves why has it never been mentioned that possibly thier weapons self destruct if tampered with. They need a special sonic key to open or the internal components melt or something like that. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 17, 2012 - 3:22pm | A quick review finds that the Sathar appear in original modules SF2 and Starmist. In both they appear to prefer laser rifles but are more than willing to use other weapons when mounted on vehicles, robots or creatures. For creature who do not have a bone structure this makes sense since recoil and vibration would seriously affect thier aim. So pulling things together the Sathar use cheap but reliable weapons which have a simple squeeze trigger in the weapon's pommel. Thier power supplies are not compatible with Frontier tech due to a difference in power frequency and in number of contacts when connecting to the weapon (although a tech could rig a makeshift converter at a -30 difficulty with a small chance it will explode when first used). Also these weapons are rigged to self destruct if tampered with to prevent enemies from learning Sathar tech. Anything else? Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 17, 2012 - 4:09pm | Laser rifle is a default suicide device for lower caste cannon fodder sathar. They're able to trigger its self destruct and hold it against their chest (much like the Japanese on Iwo Jima activated grenades and clutched them to their chest). Also it should be illegal to possess or own sathar artifacts. Just the suicide feature on the laser rifle is enough justification but certainly Star Law investigates reports of sathar artifacts on the black market. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 17, 2012 - 7:07pm | It should be illegal to own any Sathar device for not only the suicide factor but it might be assumed anyone owning Sathar tech would probably be considered a Sathar agent. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 January 17, 2012 - 7:58pm | So for the self destruct mechanism. Do you have to do something to trigger it or does it automatically trigger when you use the weapon unless you do something to prevent it? In my First Sathar War story I'm working on, the characters are going to be capturing sathar weapons as their limited supply of Frontier weapons dwindles. So I'll deal with this either way but was curious which method you guys prefer. Doing something to activate the self-destruct is simpler. There is just another button or knob you have to push and you won't accidentally have your weapon blow up in your face if you forget to do something in the heat of battle. On the other hand, having to actively prevent the self destruct would do more keep technology from being captured (although it wouldn't prevent it completely.) Personally, I would go with the former as it is the simpler design and less likely for the lower caste sathar to mess up. I actually don't see the Sathar as spending that much effort on a mass produced weapon. Especially since I see most of the "big" enemies they have experience with already having laser tech. Although I do like the idea of the thing exploding on you if you try to open it up (as opposed to just picking it up and firing it). So I'd have a special knob or button that shorts out the clip and causes the whole thing to explode plus an anti-tamper devise that causes a small explosion and fries the interior electronics/mechanism if not opened properly (-40 to repair machinery skill on top of the -20 alien tech modifier) And Sathar "clips" have the equivalent of 16 SEU. The sathar use a base 8 (octal) numbering system (since they have 8 digits) and the clip holds 2 eights (written as 20 in their system) SEU. The basic rifles of the SWI era can be set to either 1, 2 or 4 SEU giving four to sixteen shots per clip. Typically, they are set to 2 SEU per shot for eight shots per clip (Shoot for 4 rounds, reload for 1). They also have a power pack that holds 64 SEU (8 eights or "100" in octal). It weighs 8 kg if you using the standard powerpack weights or 3 kg if you use a lighter weight system where the beltpack weighs 2 and the backpack 4. BTW, in my SFU, I see handheld laser technology for the Frontier being developed as a result of SWI and the capture of Sathar weapons. Before this time, they had ship based lasers and a really bulky heavy laser canon (double the mass, half the damage per SEU) but the manufacture of small hand held weapons hadn't occurred. Thus the laser rifle and laser pistol listed in the rules are somewhat rare compared to the other weapons and hence their larger price tag. The captured weapons showed a design/technique/trick/whatever that just hadn't been thought of yet. So by the advent of the SWII (which is where I take the AD/KH rules to be set), the technology is out there but is still relatively expensive compared to other "older" weapons. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
January 17, 2012 - 8:28pm | Personally I would say the self destruct is only to prevent unauthorized tampering so much trying to disassemble the weapons. Even if you win a battle you have casaulties and weapons lying around you need to recover no matter how cheap they are you still want them back. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 17, 2012 - 9:00pm | @rattraveller: That's pretty much my take as well. There is a way to cause it to blow up, i.e. suicide device. And something to prevent it from being tampered with. But if you just want to pick it up and use it, you can, although it will be awkward if you're not a sathar (i.e. the -20 modifier). Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 January 17, 2012 - 9:11pm | I don't know how much nit-picky details y'all may want concerning the personal gear self-destruct devices, but... ...a logical extension of your line of thinking leads me to wonder: Wouldn't the explosion be larger or smaller dpending upon the SEUs remaining in the e-clip at the time of detonation? The GM would end up having to keep track of the Sathar's energy expenditures and/or generate the remaining SEUs randomly I guess. Is that too much detail to keep track of? Maybe put it in as an optional rule or something. Also, the Sathar gear will be rigged to blow as mentioned earlier in this thread...but will the Sathar agent gear be similarly rigged? I remember reading somewhere recently that the Sathar use common Frontier gear simply to accomodate their agents. It was in one of the modules...Sundown on Starmist or Face of the Enemy maybe. I'll see if I can find it and post the quote. I don't have to outrun that nasty beast my friend...I just have to outrun you!  |
January 18, 2012 - 5:15am | For thier agents is the key there. For reasons of supply and camoflague the Sathar would use the available tech and equipment so as not to give away thier agents. Unless of course it was a specialty item needed to complete a mission. Even then they might try and use a Frontier equivalent to hide the true nature of thier spies. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 18, 2012 - 5:46am | I like the octal numbering system for the sathar, it should be added to the sathar project. Good stuff. That said I would also increase the number of clips a sathar carries in SF-2 and other modules where they appear since the amount of ammo is being reduced some. I also like the SEU firing settings described especially since I tend to write up an index card for each encounter or a master NPC sheet and could just put check off boxes for shots fired (its simpler and fast as opposed to actually writing a new SEU number after doing math in the head). @Rollo I dunno, I usually track ammo for the mooks on an index card or master NPC sheet so computing the explosion of a suicide rigged laser doesn't seem to be all that big a deal- I guess referees that dont bother with tracking ammo expenditure for the mooks will have to do a random method 1d8 or 1d10. I'm tracking with all that Terl Obar said concerning the development of laser tech and his take on sathar laser tech. Let me offer a new wrinkle- with only heavy lasers available at SW1 there were also no were no personal albedo screens available. There was a heavy 20 kg squad operated albedo screen unit that was powered by a parabattery that usually only saw action on vehicles or in prepared positions. it was could be lugged by 2-3 individuals- 2 to grab handles on the trunk like parabattery and one to lug the screen unit. Sathar had personal albedo screens (leaders did at any rate) and captured examples lead directly to the explosion of screen technology after SW1 as well as the introduction of personal laser weapons. fire fights in SW1 were short and bloody. UPF equipped with skien suits and slug throwers vs sathar with little to no protection and lasers- each sides weapon generally chewed up the other side right quick. Because the sathar forces on Pale and Laco are effectively cut off from resupply they have no opportunity to adapt to UPF tactics but the UPF has the opportunity to re-equip all vehicles with an albedo screen and extra parabattery frontline squads are given albedo units to lug etc. Now as to suicide- more on this in a minute after taking a child to the bus. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 18, 2012 - 6:15am | Sathar and suicide- this one might need a thread or document in the sathar project I dont think the point is that the sathar dont want their equipment captured but rather they dont want to be capture. If you kill yourself you have no control over what happens to your equipment so they probably dont really care what happens to the stuff and Terl Obar pointed out that their tech is close enough to UPF that its probably not about keeping secrets. If we were dealing with personal suicide/self destruct devices like seen in the Predator movies then yes it could be about keeping gear from falling into enemy hands but I dont think so. Some of the leaders presented in some of the modules had implanted explosives inside their bodies so that by mental thought or presumably by unconsciousness (0 STA) they blow. Regular grunts didn't get these devices but I figured that it would be cool for the laser rifle to be default suicide device for the grunt. He overloads his rifle and takes the full damage and everything in 2m takes half? If the rifle is shot dry or clip is empty the capictor inside still has enought for 1d10 and by GM fiat this will kill the worm. That said it doesn't make sense that it would be something that you have to do to prevent it from blowing but rather a feature to blow it on purpose. Plus the discussed anti tamper feature- which is not all that bad of a deal as a healthy technician should survive a 1d10 explosion unless he was dumb enought to leave the clip in the weapon while dismantling it. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 18, 2012 - 6:40am | I'm tracking with all that Terl Obar said concerning the development of laser tech and his take on sathar laser tech. Let me offer a new wrinkle- with only heavy lasers available at SW1 there were also no were no personal albedo screens available. There was a heavy 20 kg squad operated albedo screen unit that was powered by a parabattery that usually only saw action on vehicles or in prepared positions. it was could be lugged by 2-3 individuals- 2 to grab handles on the trunk like parabattery and one to lug the screen unit. Sathar had personal albedo screens (leaders did at any rate) and captured examples lead directly to the explosion of screen technology after SW1 as well as the introduction of personal laser weapons. fire fights in SW1 were short and bloody. UPF equipped with skien suits and slug throwers vs sathar with little to no protection and lasers- each sides weapon generally chewed up the other side right quick. Because the sathar forces on Pale and Laco are effectively cut off from resupply they have no opportunity to adapt to UPF tactics but the UPF has the opportunity to re-equip all vehicles with an albedo screen and extra parabattery frontline squads are given albedo units to lug etc. [/quote I agree. That very same idea was in my mind along with the lack of laser weapons although I didn't write it out explicitly since we were talking about the weapons and not the defenses. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
January 18, 2012 - 8:48am | What does Sathar "combined arms" look like? Infantry supported with cybo dragons? There are no real examples of air support in the modules though that does not mean it does not exist. Is lack of air support a natural blind side in sathar physcology? The auto cannon in SF-2 that must be taken out or the kurabunga hang gliders cannot be called upon for support is certainly an example that suggests they have dealt with air support. Perhaps they rely on client species to provide air support. The zuraqqor would be idea for this role, but again what would the hard ware look like that a bug like zuraqqor would use in the air support role? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 18, 2012 - 9:44am | Why should the sathar weapons have a manual self destruct? I think that the lower caste Sathar shouldn't have the option to use a self destruct, but when their weapons empty they go kaboom. Only the officers (higher Caste) sathar would be considered intelligent enough or due to Caste and Prestege, given the honor to commit suicide. My feelings have always been that to make the Sathar truly a scary foe you have to dehumanize them. If you give them a "Survival of the fittest." mentality, and a "There is no failure, only death." Phylosophy that makes them a truly terrifying foe. The UPF would realize that the Sathar can not be bargained with, cowed, or otherwise neutralized, they must be utterly destroyed. The Vrusk, and Yazirians would understand this, while the other two races would always have a "There must be a better way" mentality, but are resigned to the only solution currently available to them, to destroy the Sathar. The UPF also would always have to be on alert at some level because they know that the Sathar are unrelenting, and will never stop coming until either they are destroyed, or the UPF is. Hell perhaps the Sathar were bio-engineered by the tetriarch to be the perfect weapon, and one that ultimately led to their own destruction. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
January 18, 2012 - 10:24am | As I mentioned earlier, I'll post that tid-bit about sathar gear that I referenced. I guess I don't know how pertinent it is to the thread at this point, but I said I'd post it so here it is. :) From Face of the Enemy p3, section Alpha 6: "Sathar artifacts fall into two categories - those designed for use by both sathar and thier subject races, and those designed exclusively for sathar use." "On the other hand, many commonly used artifacts (like weapons, tools, computers, and electronics gear) employ the same basic engineering principles as found in Frontier Worlds technologies, and are designed to be used easily by sathar subject races, even those somewhat less intelligent and dextrous than the Frontier races." I don't have to outrun that nasty beast my friend...I just have to outrun you! |
January 18, 2012 - 10:27am | One thing the Sathar are not is stupid. They were losing but did not lose SWI when they pulled back and changed tactics going with the spy/sabotours until they felt they slowed the UPF down enough and built themselves up enough for another go. They have a different life view and culture which the Frontier is still trying to figure out. As to why they kill themselves I have another theory I use but need to finish up before presenting. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 January 18, 2012 - 4:51pm | Maybe it is only in the Frontier Races mind that there was two Sathar Wars. For the Sathar it maybe one continuous Campaign against the Frontier Sector and that their are only times of subtle warfare in the cycle while they prepare fpr another larger initiative. We assume that the Sathar think in terms that we do. I think one of the key reasons, other than being an adversary, that Sathar were never intended to be a playable race is that they are completely foreign and alien and do not think like we do or act like we do so their motivations and actions should always be shrouded in mystery. There never was a cease fire, peace treaty, or armistice with the worms and they weren't erraticated....so its not a big jump to presume that the war never really ended for the worms. They may have been forced to flee the frontier sector but that may not be an actual sign of deteat for the worms. They may have just been testing the frontier races. Seeing what they could do or would do when faced with an invasion and then just sit back and watched the results. |
January 18, 2012 - 5:11pm | I agree with the Sathar having a very different outlook and thier true motivations and reasons being unknown. In the Traveller universe the Imperium fought 5 wars against the Zhodani. Each time the Imperium declared victory and celebrated. BUT in the Zhodani supplements we found out the Zhodani set limited goals for each war such as taking control of certain systems or testing the Imperium or contacting certain races or etc. Point is the Zhodani never felt they lost any war because they weren't fighting to win (destroy thier enemy the common idea of winning today) they were fighting for short term goals as part of a long term security plan. Maybe our Sathar are the good guys preparing the Frontier for a much worse enemy to come (Klicks anyone?) OR something else entirely. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 18, 2012 - 8:48pm | No I'm not in favor of the weapon blowing when it runs out of ammo as many of the encounters in the modules state that sathar X is equipped with a laser rifle and two clips. No I just thought the laser rifle could double as an intentional suicide device for the grunts since they dont get much equipment. Also in light of the Octal counting system I plan to increase ammo clips by one per sathar. I like the suggested thoughts on sathar psycology AZ_Gamer; bears thinking on. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 19, 2012 - 6:06am | When did we get to blowing up when it ran out of ammo? The original intention was for an anti-tampering device to assist in preventing their technology from falling into the wrong hands/paws/tentacles. This goes back to one of the basics of intelligence gathering. Some people think "questioning" people is the only or even most effective method of finding out about the enemy. It is not. Observation and deductive reasoning are much more important. Let's say Star Law scientists swoop in and take all captured laser rifles. To our poor PCs they have lost their souvenirs. To the scientists they find that Sathar with symbol A on their heads use 45 megawatt rifles. Meanwhile symbol B Sathar use 60 megawatt rifles with 45 cm barrels while all other cadres use 60 cm barrels. Symbol C Sathar use a laser rifle exactly the same as found only in the attack on that PGC facility 15 years ago and nowhere else. You keep putting these clues together and eventually you learn things you never have before. Doesn't anyone watch CSI around here? Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 20, 2012 - 9:09am | Back to the original thought of this thread, while we have decided the Sathar use Laser rifles as their main weapon. But what of the other four races. Now we were done a disservice in the weapon listing of AD which was only PGC available weapons. Looking at the original Frontier most planets are single race settled (16 out of 22). This should mean most industry is directed toward producing race specific equipment. Example Hands. While Human and Yazirian hands are close; Vrusk and Dralasite are very different. Why would a Human factory on a Human planet make a stock rifle geared toward Vrusk who are three jumps away? Also like the four allies of WWI (America, British Empire, France, Italy) each race would not only have their own equipment but their own preferences. So as to weapons here is my theory on who contributed what: Humans---Automatic Rifles---The basic weapon for the basic race. Yazirian---Gyrojet Rifles---Low kickback to use while gliding but with the big bang they love plus sharpenal effect to take out other gliders Dralasite---Needlers---They are soft skin blobs with no circulatory system. Poisons could spread much faster in their internal fluids. Since they are more debaters than fighters would let them take down their enemies without resorting to extreme violence. Since ending a Dralasite ends their line on a racial preservation note they prefer this. Vrusk---Laser Rifles---Neatness. Vrusk just strike me as neat. Lasers don't leave shell casings lying around and Laser wounds cauterize instantly, neatly. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 20, 2012 - 11:25am | @ratraveller: you hit on a topic I've brought up before and even parsed out the weapons tech close to what I did. I would lean toward giving the vrusk electric and stun weapons and leave lasers for the sathar since we've discussed the UPF as only having heavy lasers at the start of SW1. Once PGC is a megacorp its show rooms are throughout the Frontier and pretty much anything is available. Prior to the UPF & PGC circa Free World rebellion then racial industrial focus impacts item availability. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 20, 2012 - 12:33pm | I like the idea of race specific weapons. Im not too fired up about self destructing equipment. ( I know; who cares. but dang it, I spent the 45 minutes reading all this so I am going to post my thoughts!) Whereas I agree that lower sathar casts wouldn't have the honour of suicide, I had an idea about the "scary factor" of the sathar. When going into battle, all lower sathar casts (and slave races) along with their weapons/equipment would be implanted with some form of explosives. When the battle is lost or seems hopeless, the ranking sathar detonates all the lower casts/races and their gear. An effective use of this in defeat would be to hold off on the detonation until the core races are clearing the battle field. To make this practicle, there would need to be one high ranking sathar who observes and oversees. He has a biological detonator to kill off the lower casts. It would be wired into his own suicide device as well as hooked to his bio-rythems ensure that they die if he does. |
