 January 25, 2012 - 11:08am | Currently I have the entire first season of Babylon 5 checked out from the library and came across something interesting: The Thrid Principle of Sentient Life is the capacity for self sacrifice: the conscious ability to override evolution and self-preservation for a cause, a friend or a loved one. I did a quick google search and turned up a site on the Minbari that miss labeled it as the Second principle when the episode clearly stated 3rd (I double checked). This is rather interesting to me; "The Principles of Sapient Life" Its suggest a set of standards by which sapient life is judged. For that I'm currious as to what the other principles might be; anyone know? My searches haven't turned them up. Any ideas what they could be? I've changed them from Sentient to Sapient as per this rant: http://www.colonialchrome.co.uk/Pages/Rants/Rant_Sentience.html I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 25, 2012 - 11:36am | I might need to relable this to be a philosophy thread; found this interesting like in my searches- perhaps this link could lend ideas and material for the dralasite creed. http://www.arcaneknowledge.org/science/anthropic.htm I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 25, 2012 - 11:53am | Another interesting link: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/astrometrics/Galactic.htm in particular: Traits of Ensouled Intelligent Life Forms 1. An EILF is composed of "creatures of reason" and as such will have an explosion of choices available to it as compared to other non-ensouled species on their planet. The greater their freedom of choices, the more advanced and intelligent the EILF will be. The extent or degree of freedom of choices across the planet may not be homogenous. The expanded ability to make choices is the paramount feature of an EILF. 2. The EILF will be able to (and will) deny choice to its own kind. Such denial can occur by murder, enslavement, imprisonment or some other means. 3. The EILF will be acculturated, exhibiting apparently irrational behavior patterns which are a function of its acculturated beliefs. It will not exhibit standard periodic behavior patterns which influence other planetary species. For example, a mating season will not exist because reproduction will be an act of choice and a variety of astrological conditions are necessary to express life. 4. Almost any living being can be ensouled. One way to organize the categories of ensouled life forms can be as follows: a. Independently mobile, like animals on earth. b. Dependently mobile, like pilot fish or parasites living on animals. c. Non mobile, like plants. d. Randomly mobile, like jellyfish. Ensoulment does not have to depend on a fixed organization of cells like a plant or animal. Hive creatures can be ensouled, like a hive of bees or school of fish. 5. The ensouled creatures may exist comfortably in almost any orientation (e.g. walk erect). Astrological influences of the group soul in animals (note: not humans) is apparently sensed through the spinal column . Animals sense this influence which seems to be generated by the vector cross product between the astral radiation from the Earth and various astronomical sources (above the Earth). Thus, animals - and alien animals - will prefer to have a linear structure of nerve tissue perpendicular to a radius vector from the planet so they can obtain data/guidance from the group soul. Plants require a similar structure along (parallel to) the radius vector of the planet. Ensouled animals often prefer to "walk erect" and ensouled plants reject geotropism and grow randomly, to demonstrate their independence from outside control. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 25, 2012 - 6:19pm | I believe the first two are: 1. Self-awareness 2. Tool-making Those are the ones identified in the Fuzzy Papers by H. Beam Piper. He defines "self-awareness" as a moral self-awareness by the ability to judge one's own actions and the actions of others as right or wrong upon the dictates of a social stratum. Oh, and 3. The ability to relate complex social ideas by some means of communication. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 January 25, 2012 - 9:00pm | Self sacrifice is not necessarily an intelligence trait. Many animals will attack a larger predator to protect their young or eggs. Also several species can be trained to put themselves in dangerous and deadly situations despite survival instincts. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 27, 2012 - 12:30am | Good point. Though I believe the self-sacrifice of that rule has a caveat of "the conscious ability to override evolution and self-preservation for a cause, a friend or a loved one." In other words, the ability to choose for one's self to override their instinct (a mother protecting her cubs is instinct or an animal protecting its mate), in order to sacrifice one's self for a cause greater than themselves or a loved one. I would argue that Japanese workers throwing themselves en masse off the top of a building falls into this category, or soldiers forming a line in which they know they'll be killed with certainty, or the light brigade charging across an open valley that has been thoroughly covered by the enemy to charge the enemy lines in a full frontal assault is definitely a sign of being able to overcome their instincts. Heck, just being able to fire a gun is against our instincts. So I think the real matter is just the ability to override instincts by force of will, regardless of whether it is by self-sacrifice or simply doing something that our nerves scream out to us is wrong. But I think that only defines the species as having free will. I contest that a species could be prone to following orders and still be sapient. Just because you can't stop yourself from doing something doesn't mean you have no awareness of whether it is right or wrong. It doesn't mean you're not conscious of your surroundings, and it doesn't mean you're incapable of making choices and inventing things. It just means that you don't counter your instincts, and even if someone else can order you about, you still have the capacity for self-determination and free thought as long as they don't give you specific orders countering them. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
January 26, 2012 - 6:07pm | There is one problem I usually have with the self sacrifice concept. Many people turn themselves over to various causes, factions, cults and other groups which proceed to convince them to sacrifice everything for the group. The many different methods of brainwashing aside can the people who no longer control their own lives be considered intelligent? What about people suffering from various diseases which destroy or ruin the brain like autism, alzheimer's mad cow and others. Are they no longer intelligent of sentient? Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 26, 2012 - 7:34pm | The many different methods of brainwashing aside can the people who no longer control their own lives be considered intelligent? What about people suffering from various diseases which destroy or ruin the brain like autism, alzheimer's mad cow and others. Are they no longer intelligent of sentient? You assume that people in a cult no longer have choice or that they are not using it. It may be that they prefer to not buck the system they are in for a reason or perhaps they are a true believer. In the course of my education I've read a few books about rescuing or leading someone out of a cult and I've also dealt with individuals both in a high profile cult that everyone would recognize as well as one that is a little more obscure. Yes these people are buying into a bill of goods that the rest of us could scoff at but they are by no means not using their brains. And the reasons they are holding onto bad belief even when they suspect its bad are myriad and conplex. It can be very fustrating to deal with these people but to write them off as unintelligent is very close to being as closed minded as they are IMO. In the hi-lighted portion I do not understand your point. disease process is something that happens. It really should not be a part of this discussion unless it was a disease that happened to every member of the species. The Principle as presented on B5 is in a philosophical context. We're really talking about generalities not specific cases. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 27, 2012 - 5:49am | My post was a bit off topic since it dealt with individuals in a species and not whether a species is intelligent or not. Just asking questions and getting opinions about a related topic. Since the Sathar have self sacrifice has part of their nature but we do not know if it is a natural trait or something force on them it could be the Sathar are not a race at all but biological robots programmed by another species as warriors who just can't help attacking other races. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 27, 2012 - 10:21am | That's an interesting idea. It works as long as Sathar retain some amount of self-determination, given their record of infighting and independent actions. Since there are no exceptions to the rule, I can definitely see it as a matter of no choice for them through some factor they can't control. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 January 28, 2012 - 10:56pm | @ Jedion: I have the whole B5 series. I will see if I can come up with something for you this next week. |
January 28, 2012 - 11:24pm | @ Jedion: I have the whole B5 series. I will see if I can come up with something for you this next week. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 29, 2012 - 12:30am | I have the whole Galactica saga old and new. I was having an addiction to collecting dvds for awhile. No more though. The library is a great place, but now I live in a place with a library that is about the size of a small 7-11. I have netflixs though. It helps. |
January 29, 2012 - 6:14am | I keep donating books and DVDs to the library that I feel I only need to watch or read once and the librarian wipes out the late fees on mine and my daughters card. Since the three of us go together, when there are fees it means there are fees for all three. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 29, 2012 - 8:42pm | Good idea. When I decide to part with my dvd's I will donate them. I have a few books too that I need to move on. |
 February 1, 2012 - 8:20am | I like the idea of this thread. I don't care for the idea of a prime directive for SF, but I do like the idea of an administrative directive of some sort requiring planetary exploration expeditions to evaluate native life forms to determine sapience, thus legal right for the native species to possess the planet and protect it from incursion. It also may help put a little more importance in the psycho/social (I love that term) class. I like to see a list of criteria and maybe even a policy write up for this. |
February 1, 2012 - 8:43pm | In using the determination for being sentient to determine rights could make for some interesting adventures of Mega-corps downplaying the races intelligence or abilities to claim some rights to some natural resources. On the other hand they might be trying to play off some races as more advanced so they could claim they signed "treaties" giving them the rights to certain lands. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
February 1, 2012 - 11:22pm | Whoa! I love the idea of a corporate officer assigned to a survey mission and leaning on the players to classify a species a certain way even when all the evidence is going the opposite direction. Great Idea. I suppose that it would be more of a check list of questions and you compare an individual species score against a scale with a lot off room for interpretation. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 2, 2012 - 10:38am | This could open a path for identifying races that are close but not quite there and then doing some genetic work on them to get them over the hump...not that a mega corp or some such would do that if they found a way to profit from it in some way. |
February 2, 2012 - 7:32pm | It's like you all are reciting the plot of the Little Fuzzies series. You all really need to read that series. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
February 2, 2012 - 8:00pm | Little Fuzzie? Written by H. Beam Piper right? Was waiting for the movie. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 3, 2012 - 6:32am | Heard of it but never got to read them. Are they downloadable some where? Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
February 3, 2012 - 7:21am | Heard of it but never got to read them. Are they downloadable some where?
If it was published by Baen then you'll find the first in any popular series by any of their popular authors in their free online library in several different electronic formats. They're like a drug dealer giving out free samples that way.I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 February 3, 2012 - 8:56am | You can get Little Fuzzies at project Gutenberg. http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/18137 |
February 3, 2012 - 7:21pm | Thanks, Tekrat. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 February 4, 2012 - 12:04pm | Leaning on the Fuzzy series. There is a mention in the Zeb's timeline about strict new laws on corporations owning a planet. In the first Fuzzy book the fight is over if the Fuzzies are sapient and this would cause the corporation to loose rights to the planet and bring in a colonial government. Zeb's could be meaning the same thing here as a way to keep the megacorps from claiming planets. -iggy |
February 4, 2012 - 12:34pm | Leaning on the Fuzzy series. There is a mention in the Zeb's timeline about strict new laws on corporations owning a planet. In the first Fuzzy book the fight is over if the Fuzzies are sapient and this would cause the corporation to loose rights to the planet and bring in a colonial government. Zeb's could be meaning the same thing here as a way to keep the megacorps from claiming planets.
That and the fact that they already have inordinate influence and the sudden addition of no less then four corporate owned planets between AD and Zebs actually gives them four votes, wholly owned, on the Council of worlds. I would think that any tough new legislation would be more tied to a fear of the Mega corps totally taking over the UPF then any benevolent concern for little fury critters. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 4, 2012 - 1:02pm | But I love the little fury critters and the evil corporations are out to squash all little fury critters everywhere. Save the little fury critters! Outlaw corporate ownership of worlds! -iggy |
February 4, 2012 - 7:53pm | Ah books without pages. I have heard of this. Do not use it at this time and currently have only 12 books on the "To read" shelf (I have been working on it hard) so will try and get to it. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
February 6, 2012 - 7:45pm | But I love the little fury critters and the evil corporations are out to squash all little fury critters everywhere.
Save the little fury critters! Outlaw corporate ownership of worlds!  I'm with you on that.  View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 February 7, 2012 - 1:00pm | What about a lifeform that has been around for much longer and puts little value on the lower lifeforms even ones considered to be Sentient. It works on a sliding scale depending on the moral values of the spieces. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
