 December 11, 2011 - 7:02am | Found this in the old list serv archive: "If a system is discovered, how do you claim rights to it?
Good Question!!!!! Do you guys remember MISSION TO ALCAZZAR? In that adventure the CDC Corp wanted to keep the mineral wealth of the planet a secret. Why, so that no one else would start mining there. If they were allowed to claim the whole planet as there own, I'm sure they would have. They would have had the whole planet to mine, all they would require would be some planetary defense batteries. Then they could mine the entire planet dry over the next 100 years. Ultimately, the "I got here first" approach really....SUCKS. But how far would the UPF go to enforce their laws, if one existed. What if some rich guy came by and set up a number of planetary defenses? What if this rich guy decided not to join the UPF, and made slavery legal or something else, just as nasty. The UPF overlooks Outter Reach all the time. Is it choice, law, or just the policital reality?" Probably a question for the colonization project, How to claim a planet? Comparing the Frontier between the AD rules and the Zebs installment there were a few mega corp owned systems set up, Pan Gal and New Streel, and Devco. Solar Major is often overlooked but it is also mega corp owned. Mega corp owned planets and system are both a good thing and a bad thing. They're good for conflict in the setting but realistically they create problems. Mega Corps already have a huge influence with the Council of Worlds and now they get a seat on the council? Plus if the company owns the planet what about the citizens? Lots of room for abuse there. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 December 11, 2011 - 11:14am | Lots of political and sociological ramifications are at play... as such the psychology and behavior of organisms is also involved at the rudimentary levels... and with that comes mutually acceptable theistic and philosophical paradigms and culturally established consensual reality models... In short.. it's a big fish-fry! In simplistic human terms, a charter is the grant of authority or rights, and one of these may be needed to gain a United Council of Planets sanction on any project conducted by members of the unified body or any of it's subsets (including corporations and citizens). In simple forms a License to conduct oneself in a given skill-set at a particular level of authority can be expected, and certain licensed authorities may be required to approve various temporary projects in previously unrecognized terrain (for purposes - terrain refers to any portion of space, any planetary body of any size or composition, AND any subsets of a system body smaller in scope). In more complex forms of Charter of [Insert Use] or especially a full Colonial Charter, approval from one or more governmental bodies may be required to gain sanctions of extended charter, and still only after licensed authorities of a number of various fields have given a full and exhaustive account of the expected benefits and hindrances expected to arise in the environments in question during the purported use. In the really complex political scope, individual colonies, and certain 'special provision' organizations, and even some 'specially sanctioned' corporations, may offer various forms of charter and sanction, at a benefit of freedoms that may prove more useful to the applicants than any of those granted by the United Planetary Council or it's Constituents - and/or the United Planetary Council may (as would be the case of a non-governmental body, acting as an arena of political interests for mutually agreeing governments, in an accord under a pact) have limited authority (or none officially) to sanction any charter for extension beyond that which they are (under advisement from security interests such as StarFleet and StarLaw) capable or willing to afford protection. In the event that someone (or more accurately, some organization of considerable logistics) moved beyond openly sanctioned frontiers to 'stake a claim' without being granted special sanctions for autonomous charter, they would be in violation of a number of protective assurances, and at the least could expect no help from StarLaw, SpaceFleet, MSO, or any other organization under the operational jurisdiction of the Planetary Council... they would therefore be at the mercy of; any pirate fleet, other claim-jumping corporations/organizations, neighboring planet or system governments with interests in the same location, incursions of aggressive xeno-threats, biological hazards, and their own civil disputes... etc... the potential risks of certain hazards resulting in the spread of these threats into the governments of accord within the Planetary Council body, would place pressures to make such 'rouge seperitists' illegal at worst and treated as a foreign political bodies at best... and as such subject to blockades and tariffs, inspections and rejections, and even outright quarantine and extermination... all for the safety of the UPF governments and their citizenry and interests. This all sounded like a legal thesis on international customs... probably because that is effectively the scope of the question here. Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 December 11, 2011 - 10:17am | Don't assume corps are evil and abuse ppl. Corps have very loyal followers, least a house divided falls. |
December 11, 2011 - 11:17am | Agreed!!! Good Question!!! After making that initial generica, and looking into this a little more... there are such a vast number of ways that a colony can come into being, and thus be recognized in one form or another by The Council and/or it's Constituents, as to make it difficult to nail down a simple one-size-fits all framework. In the case of the frontier Sovereignty seems questionable to such a high degree to make it a matter of fiat... only the agreement of the accords that sanction a mutual beneficiary in the UPF by member constituents really stands as any test to measure Sovereignty by pure legality... yet the "Capellan Rim Coalition", the "Yazirian Home Sovereignty", and the "Mutual Initiatives of Cooperative Hives", are points of sovereignty within their own frameworks and seem to be quite capable of standing outside of any UPF legality. The sovereignty of "The White Light over Clarion" also seems heartily capable of some independence from The Council. The PGC was placed as a Megacorporation by being given special autonomy by The Council. Most of the other Megacorporations are likely to have limited autonomy and fall short of the same special considerations. The colonies of New Streel, Devco, Solar Major (and the even more overlooked WarTech colonies) are likely to still be proprietary to some other sovereign body (at least in theory) and not directly ruled by the corporation. They are most likely - governed locally and/or by extension under special sanction or recognition by The Council as something like a provincial or proprietary member to the UPF or one of it's member constituents, or in a full suzerainty relationship as a protectorate to some other sovereignty. Megacorporations, including the PGC, are not likely 'given a seat' in The Council by a private interest's proprietary claims over such a provisional colony. What it still comes down to is that all these colonies are in accord with the protections and provisions afforded Transplanetary Law, the mutual benefits of Aid and assistance in times of emergency and war, and the ability to interact in an arena of good-faith amongst peers. Any rouge separatist element attempting an "I got here first" approach would be under no obligations, but neither would the UPF or any of it's members be obliged to recognize a mutual agreement of respects and customs be extended to the "illegal" nation. Outer Reach is a prime candidate for just such an example separatist, that may have garnered some support from other sources, but is not directly within the UPF framework of protection and obligations and thus StarLaw has little jurisdictional responsibility or authority there. Liberty is another, where it is StarLaw that has been afforded approval by local government, but no additional support or obligations to UPF are expected or offered. Lynchpin is dominated by obligations between WarTech and SpaceFleet, but is rather beyond any other influences other than the local governing provisional colony. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
December 11, 2011 - 11:11am | Good point w00t, it has already been shown through the evolutions of the cyberpunk genre that moral dignity is still a possibility within a dystopia... don't assume a 'strict evilness' ... ...but walk softly and keep your laser pistol handy.  Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 December 11, 2011 - 11:18am | One thing to realize is that people do not colonize worlds on a whim. Going to a new place is a huge financial undertaking requiring investment that may not be returned for decades. While we may think a Mega-corp could plunk down a mining camp and start reaping profits this is not the case. Millions of credits would have to be spent just to find the best spots to start a mining operation. Setting up a full colony I could not estimate the costs even with massive robotic assistance. Another point is that while most of our adventures take place on planets they seldom take place on the entire planet. Planets are just frigging huge. A government or mega-corp could try and claim one but unless they are willing to use a lot of deadly force and mass murder and keep constant surveillance on the entire planet hoping to own a whole planet would be ridiculous. If they could than we would not have pirates and other criminal elements. Also the rights of the native inhabitants need to be thought of. During the Age of Imperialism the European powers just moved in and moved out the savages in the Americas and Africa. India was too well established to be summarily kicked out but that did not prevent them from becoming part of the British Empire. We could expect the rights of native peoples would be better represented by the UPF in allowing anyone to just go and settle a planet for whatever reason. (Wonder what kind of trouble the PCs got into for stealing the natives of Starmists' sacred tank) When a new planet is found whether it be one with limited use like Venturi from Bugs in the System or Volturnus any group wanting to go there and set up a trade shop or a colony or just a mining operation there would be a lengthy bureaucratic process to go through. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
December 11, 2011 - 12:00pm | It could be a lengthy process, but it could be a quick in-and-out job with no stake in permanence, and afforded by licensed authorities kept in-house for all the survey and safety measures and other cut-tape tactics. however even then to do so without 'special autonomy' is likely subject to fines and confiscations of equipment... etc. "...bad corporation, now go find more resources for us elsewhere! (and don't get caught next time it's bad for PR.)" or it could just be turned into a "... mutually agreeable contract." like Lynchpin... and Liberty. The points of needing an organization to back it, and a government to sanction it, are right on target... It is a sizable logistics investment, and the benefits of having a sanctioned claim are about the only guarantees you can have for retaining planetary control... and that is still a difficult proposition, but at least you have the legal claim to back ejection of unwanted tenants. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
December 11, 2011 - 6:33pm | I'm working on creating corp owned systems in my BBSF setting and decided to look up "corporate authority". Great resources on the net. The most famous I can think of is in Star Wars, the Corporate Sector Authority". Reading this now; |
December 11, 2011 - 7:51pm | Nice find... some points that sprang out at me as being important in context... Earlier generations of Americans were quite clear that a corporation was an artificial, subordinate entity with no inherent rights of its own, and that incorporation was a privilege bestowed by the sovereign people. - ‘A corporation in law is just what the incorporation act makes it. It is the creature of the law and may be molded to any shape or for any purpose that the Legislature may deem most conducive to the common good.’ - In many states, corporations were prohibited from owning other corporations, prohibited from donating to political candidates or charitable organizations, and prohibited from owning any land beyond what was necessary for the carrying out of their chartered duties. Boards of directors and stockholders were held personally liable for all harms and debts. The ‘limited liability corporation’, as we know it today, did not exist. As exciting as the entirety of that article is, and as much as I am in support of educating the real world to it's own follies lest it repeat them... I am not... no rather... I am really very sure, I do not want to limit the Megacorporations in the frontier context... at least, not by much more than I already see them, which in my view is already weak enough to be manageable and still be a potential major plot-hook of potentially dramatic interest. Frontier corporations, especially Transplanetary corporations, need some room to exploit 'empty and unclaimed spoils of the wilderness' without excessive limitations or concerns for who the might offend (and with that the inherent potential to abuse that privilege, and make for an interesting place for characters to explore the drama and intrigue... or just blow up primitive aliens blocking the way of their civilizations advancement in a blissfully innocent robinsonade stupor...) and the frontier as a whole benefits from exploitations of the wilds, even if there are some grey areas that are crossed and/or overlooked now and then. It is a point of enlightenment here to acknowledge that other forms of corporate precedent exist... and can be accounted for on a sovereignty-by-sovereignty basis. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
December 11, 2011 - 9:16pm | I'm liking the idea of a house of worlds and a house of peoples (saw it recently and the brain is too foggy to remember where) thought it was a good idea and it gives you a two house system to the government though how you would get multiple human planets and multiple yazirian planets to agree on who was going to represent their race I just dont know without it being a situation of each human planet sends a rep to the house of peoples which makes it a little different from the house of worlds. perhaps my brain is too foggy to think straight right now I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 11, 2011 - 11:49pm | What are they looking for on these new worlds. In the Americas it was furs and pelts and the supposed veins and veins of gold just lying around waiting to be picked up. On some planet with really tall blue skinned natives it was unobtainium. Base metals would be too plentiful in asteriod belts or on the planets themselves since Frontier planets are relatively new colonies. Finding new and unique things like rare ores, medical items, the latest arm held pet or a world of lost pens still takes time. OF course we have not really gotten into the beings who want to leave civilization and go live on a dangerous uninhabited undeveloped rock. Or is that a separate discussion. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
December 12, 2011 - 4:37am | I don't think a Parliamentary or a Congressional model serves a Council of Planets well enough... as distasteful as some may find this comparison, it seems to be a little more likely that a U.N. model would be capable of serving the needs of The Federation Constituency... The Council is not a system involved in governing the individual citizenry of member constituents and therefor needs no direct house of plebes, it is more an active dialog between agreeing member sovereignties to abide with certain precepts of; an 'extended humanity' os recognized sapient members, transstellar customs, and exchanges of sovereign respects... "with a FEDERATION as its loose government..." an adhoc transstellar government of sovereign transplanetary governments, setup as "a central defense organization..." ... with a modicum of limited expectations of what makes a sovereign state sovereign, and in regards to it's methods of government... and an agreement for mutual protections for the plebeians en masse, afforded under the individual laws of it's Constituents formal governmet system... but not a direct contributor to legislation and enforcement within sovereign jurisdictions. The terms of precedent here may be, Corporative federalism, Greek confederation, Voluntary association... and given the loose formation and treatment of SpaceFleet, it is not even close to a regular Hegemony, as there is no transstellar politico–military dominance under a Cesar - be it a position elected by a Concilium Plebis under an imagined authority of justified doctrine rights, or forced onto the unwilling people's sovereignty of local governance by champions of absolutism and threats of might. The drive of exploration in every frontier has been 'because it is there... and no one has any idea what it is... so we go forth to be the first to see it and live to tell the tale...' exploitation of it comes after determining what it is in the first place... It is the frontier, it is the uncharted, it is the unknown... and in many ways it is the liberty and freedom of going beyond the known limitations and fully exploited here. That said, in the Frontier Sector it doesn't mater if their are base materials everywhere, those over there are not being used... and it is a known unknown what many mysteries await discovery 'out there', and many might be beneficial to the survival of our all-too-small 'extended humanity family' against the all-too-many known unknown threats. Motivation abounds for exploration, it is the logistics and bureaucracy alone that sometimes seem impossible to get past... but with ingenuity and an adventourous spirit it can prove to be profitable beyond imaginations, and easier than you might think... From Rocky Jones Spacewalker M.D. -to- Buster "Flash" Rogers and his young ward Jet Starbuck racing around in The Mach-Rocket Mark-0, just watch those popular tri-vid exploration heroes go!! Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
December 12, 2011 - 8:15am | Agreed that the need to explore is there and going to see it just cause it is there exists but that is also the basis of the tourism industry. Settling an undeveloped area is a totally different operation with very different motivation. Mostly economic to exploit newly discovered resources, occasionally military if the area has a strategic value, scientific to learn about what is there, religious but in the spread the word sense, and let us throw in the rebel freedom seeking element. The last one refers to not only those seeking a new life because of repressive religious laws (The Pilgrams were a cult yah know) but those seeking new opportunities they can not find in settled areas. Such as the millions of farmers who left Europe because the land was owned by the nobility and they were tired of giving away most of what they grew. One I did not mention above is displacement. Whether because of war, economic depression, natural or man-made disasters or because the situation at home has become extremely untenable (think Jews in Germany in the 30s). The key difference to remember is explorers do not stay anywhere. They just keep moving and are the stuff stories and legends are made of. Settlers are boring and the rednecks city folk make fun of. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
December 12, 2011 - 4:53pm | Frontier Spirit - there are a lot of reasons for a colony to be started, direct economic gains is just one, theistic and philosophical aspirations just another, freedoms and liberties (from oppressive or difficult environments) are a quite universally popular motivation indeed - and frequently merely the catalyst to some other justification. Explorers as such are legends, even long after they settle and live out their less well known, and much more boring years... which is typically shortly after that amazing discovery they are most known for. But then some never have the time to settle down, and fade to legend having been explorers till the day they saw their final sunset. The rigorous heroism and ingenuity involved in a settlement's survival are frequently the stuff of great stories rarely explored, and some legends can come from the seemingly most quiet and docile environs and circumstances. But no doubt the Frontier Sector is ripe with youths that will aspire to ventures into the unknown just to live up to their all too real heroes as children, repetitively told both in formal education and in popular media saturation. The Frontier Sector will live for long eons yet stranger than these, as it's nearly guaranteed an eternal Frontier Spirit. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
December 13, 2011 - 7:13am | Excellent post related to this topic; Refer to: Steve Bartell's Analysis of Star Law (a document page from the Star Law: Crime and Punishment project). |
December 13, 2011 - 8:44am | I like that article, but for relations to this discussion: assumption #1 a 'civilized world' is one that has become a full membership Constituent - to which not all worlds listed in the frontier necessarily are. assumption #2 StarLaw may not have a 'great fleet' or an 'official military' but can likely muster combat capable ships from among that array of fast, light armed vehicles for planetary and interplanetary transportation, such as flit-boards, rocket bikes, skimmers, etc... and in certain locations may have a larger number of stable ships 'on call' for emergency, than typically seen elsewhere. assumption #3 similar to the points of variation in assumption #2 this is not likely a uniform constant in all parts of the frontier, and their may be attachments of local militia designated for local StarLaw use by local arrangement... in some cases these may even be well armed and trained standing security forces divided into multi-role operational departments... StarLaw may not 'officially' head such an organization, but by local arrangement be given priority of attachment and duty of service. assumption #4 just because StarLaw has the ability to call for UPF to send in SpaceFleet as back-up does not guarantee they always will... the pride of StarLaw can sometimes become a motivation for handling things internally and just updating progress reports to the main office. assumption #5 would sound like no other scout authority exists, and to this interpretation I simply give a rejection... many different authorities for exploration may exist, some with ambiguous power, others exercising more authority than they actually have... This Authority over unexplored, neutral, or enemy territory, is both - where-in; Where ever Local Authority is non-existent StarLaw is still responsible for the safety and justice for all citizens of Constituent Worlds; however, where Local Authority is under a sovereign jurisdiction outside of 'civilized worlds' StarLaw is not the authority over Local Custom or another Recognized Sovereignty. assumption #6 stipulates the main four races, I broaden this to all Constitute citizens with clean records and initiative are candidates for StarLaw, and non-Constitute citizens may be attached as liaison to StarLaw after given authorization by a Council of Planets appointed Committee approval, and under good faith relations with the other Non-Constitute Law Authority involved. assumption #7 has no point of conflict, just a reminder that many motivations for such investigation exist, and StarLaw would not hold a monopoly on such investigation. assumption #8 is nominal, and expected standard operations. assumption #9 again there is no reason to believe StarLaw has a monopoly on such investigations, and other such groups would have their own Internal Affairs and Oversight Committee Authorities, and not always be under StarLaw jurisdictional authority - especially as per assumption #5 - even under a Full Member Constituency of an individual Sovereignty it is unlikely that StarLaw would be given jurisdiction over local affairs and investigations, simply because it is StarLaws place to protect the Constituency, and NOT to interfere with the local governments that extend StarLaw the authority to operate in the first place. assumption #10 thru #14, and the rest of the article stands - were it does not pertain to these points of definitions and refinements, and does not assume UPF to be a totalitarian force of authority - and obsoletes individual sovereignty of all local governments; that came to accord for mutual agreements and support, under the Council of Planets for a Unification Pact of Federalization via Cooperative Interests and Actions. or at least... this is how I see it benefiting the setting in a way that is open to the Frontier Spirit and political dramas, rather than a strict imperialist system lacking in any personal freedoms for it's citizenry, or diversity amongst locations of adventure. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
