 October 23, 2011 - 8:11am | Starting to assemble the nuts and bolts details of this class. HS5 100 to 125 m long by 15 to 20ish m diameter. 2 hatches. 3 class B atomic engines. LC, LB, RB(HARM)X6, MS X1 I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 23, 2011 - 8:24am | I think since this is a CFM design built in the Rim it should look different in someway to what we're use to seeing for UPF ships. Thus I've been imagining a "firefly" sort of a design with the engines on struts at mid ship. That one design feature will set it apart. It will require a workshop and technical section at midship and makes the bottom of the ship a logical place for a cargo hold. That said I'd like to make it that that cargo hold opens to allow a shuttle to enter and the hold to close, allowing the shuttle to be unloadedwith ease. Shuttle will attach to the side wall of the hold and gantry like walkways will extend to its hatch. If the hold is needed for cargo the shuttle can lock onto one of the air locks. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 23, 2011 - 9:55am | I don't see that this ship needs the 14 crew that were listed in its original post. Very likely it could get by with 6 or 7. I think that I'd interpret it as 14 is what the lifesupport is rated for plus a backup LS for 14 giving it a capacity of 28 in a pinch. If even more LS was required the shuttle's hatch could be left open and its LS run to contribute air. So with a rating of 14 on the LS there will be room for passengers. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
June 17, 2012 - 6:42am | Ok, as per the details in the as yet to be published Zebs guide to the Rim, the ifshnits had a long maritime history on Homeworld and the discovery of another planet in thier system with a world ocean completely delighted them. The CFM actually grew out of their long held practice of merchant captains banding together for mutual support on Homeworld's oceans. All of that adds up to a long standing maritime tradition and The CFM's headquarters on Faire (the world ocean) means they continue to have a strong association with the sea. So approaching ifshnit ship design it seems to me that borrowing of ideas from sailing vessels can lead to a whole new style of ship design that distinguishes CFM ships from UPF ships (and by extention the ships of the Flight and the Rim Coalition. For example in the age of sail the captain ran the ship from the back by the rudder. There is nothing that says a bridge has to be the top deck. Ifshnits may have simple built their space ships with the bridge at the bottom of the vertical arrangement. Naturally in many UPF ship designs the engines go at the back but they also go on pilons mounting them away from the ship due to the raidiation associated with the most common drive types. I had already been considering mounting the engines of this class amid ship much like they are on Firefly. but now the mid ships of this ship has three masts on which one of its three engines is mounted. many UPF ship designs has the top most deck as an observation dome, presumably for passengers and astrogators to take observations from. Now on the CFM ship the masts are hollow passage (with a ladder mounted on the side of the wall going all the way to both ends in case of 0 g) this is the access way for the engineer to access the engines directly but also the accessway to by pass the engine and reach one of 3 "crows nests" though the ifshnit's word for them actually translates to gull's nest in Pan Gal. The fore castle of a sailing ship was for stores and the top deck of the Dawn Trader class is dedicated to the ship's stores and supplies as well. possibly an air lock. Main hold is in the center of the ship. Ifshnits will likely use nautical terms prominently in describing their ships. Even though their space ships dont actually look like sailing ships the ifshnit love of the sea is obvious in them. Port holes actually looking out on space may have decorative elements that make them look like they were on an actual ocean liner. A common ifshnit diversion is sailing and CFM captains visiting the planet Faire rellish the opportunity to go sailing. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 July 11, 2012 - 4:02pm | Thus I've been imagining a "firefly" sort of a design with the engines on struts at mid ship.
Sort of a yachts & privateers look, I like that. |
July 11, 2012 - 8:00pm | I have to work those plans up for the Mooks without Number. I'm liking the "firefly" ship layout as the design philosophy for most/all ships built in the Rim. Clearly the predominent design philosophy in the UPF is tail mounted engines so I think making the Rim design philosophy a mid ship mount will 10 give us an easily recongizable design philosophy and 2) it doesn't really violate anything in the canon. Plus the Firerfly ship looks cool and if anyone has materials from that RPG they can use the Firefly deck plan and simply call it a Rim design. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
July 12, 2012 - 8:54am | I wouldn't say stern mounted drives is a Frontier thing, there are several fore-mounted drives depicted in the Warriors of White Light module (the two freighter deck plans and the drifting hulk artwork on the front page of the module booklet). But mid-mounts is definitely a foreign concept to the game...save for the yachts & privateers minis anyways. Perhaps a secondary distinguishing trademark can also be utilized, maybe something along the lines of a spherical fore (re: destroyer escorts of Traveller game) or other such oddity. 
Swap the drives and the pylons and you have a ship. Or one up, make the sphere the stern and replace the Traveller drives with an observation platform...make the stern/sphere the bridge. Distinguishly different ;) |
July 14, 2012 - 7:06am | Idea popped in my head this morning based on the mid ship engine mount/firefly concept- Dawn Trader is HS5 so it can land. Lets imagine engine mounts that rotate like some VTOL aircraft that allow it to come to rest on its side. It will of course be a massively ungainly pig to maneuver so piolots have a big negative modifier for this maneuver. But rather than have the ship crash for a failled roll the ship comes equipped with some maneuver rockets fore and aft (chemcial rocket fuel) that on a failled roll the pilot simply hits the maneuver rockets for an extra 20% to modify the roll to a pass. If the roll was so bad that he needs 40% its a hard burn and must be followed by a second skill check to make up for his overcompensation. There is a limited number of rocket burns and a fixed cost to replace the fuel for each burn. As an extra if maneuvering in space combat and the maneuver rockets are fully fueled the pilot and discharge them completely for a one time increase in MR by 1. Oh yeah one more thing to gain the extra MR in space these rockets are only on the underside of the ship thus the pilot must carefully align the craft to get the extra MR he wants which requires a skill check. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
July 14, 2012 - 3:19pm | I like that idea. Especially if you ignore the fact that the KH rules for landing are dependant on what kikd of drives you have on the ship (referring to the HS:3 starships/HS:5 system ships malarkey...in my mind that ruling was a preview to Zeb's Guide --- a less powerful drive can launch/land a bigger ship than the more powerful drive LOL). If you haven't seen Prometheus yet, the ship in that flick works the same way. Four drives (two mid/two aft) that rotate in the atmosphere for landing. The landng gear are built around the exhaust ports. And if you really want to get technical, have a chemical thruster paralleling each drive for landing on civilized worlds that do not wish you venting nuclear exhaust into their breathable air (or if the ship has ion drives). You can use whatever remaining fuel leftover from lift-offs for acceleration boosts in combat by firing both drive systems (+1 ADF for a few turns, must refuel the chem drives if you want to make landfall again). Alas that gets costly with a second drive system and the secondary bits of software to operate it (not just a second drive program, but second DCR and alarm programs as well). |
August 4, 2012 - 10:10pm | Talking basic shape here; hull has 3 distinct sections: Forward, Mid and Aft Forward: is sphere shaped- decks here are living spaces, bridge, two air locks , Weaponry? Aft: If looking at it from directly aft it looks like a rectangle with the corners sanded off which makes it an octogon except the four new sides(where the corners were sanded off) are short so while its octogonal in shape it still looks like a rectangle, mostly. Looking at the aft section from the side it looks like a rectangle as it it the cargo hold Mid Section: I guess a cylinder with three equi-distant pilons mounting the engines. Central cylinder holds workshops, workpod access, ship's launch, access to the pilons, ship'sactive defenses. I wanted the ifshnits to call the pilons "masts" due to their nautical heritage and if that's the case then masts should have a crows nest, which sort of fits but then the reason the engines are on pilons away from the ship is because of the radiation so you would need to be wearing the insuit. what a pain to go to the crows nest- having to put on the insuit first. But then why would you go to the crow's nest? it would make a good observation dome or a defense station for a gunner operating a heavy laser (AD equipment list) against possible boarders and launches or workpods. Unless we say the access tunnel is just shielded enough that if you dont dwadle when by passing the engine you're ok and once in the crows nest the shielding is heavier. the crows nest also functions as an escape pod. finally the 3 engine mounts to work right they really need to be equi-distant which present a problem for landing. unless they are not all that long and some really heavy duty landting struts deploy to keep 2 engines off the ground while the third is straight up Landing proceedures allow for the two engines to rotate like an osprey's and the third being straight up continues to provide forward thrust. Add air foils or construct the pilon/masts like air foils and even extend these wings off the two lower engines but at an angle so they don't impede landing and on the top mast the air foil functions as a vertical stablizer but the wing does not continue past the engine. Instead its the crows nest which is just past the engine and mounted there is the AD equipment list hvy laser which is purely used for anti boarding. When the ship lands the sphere sections is actually double hulled- a layered sphere or more properly what you see on the outside is purely shell and there is an inner sphere that can rotate to keep deck one pointing up. The hatch mating the sphere section to the mid section rotates down and becomes the belly hatch While the hatch that was on the side of the sphere rotates 90 to mate up with the cylinder while the ship is landed. It was only a fear of nuclear radiation and a bit of legistlation in the UPF that prohibited HS4 &5 ships with atomics from landing. The ifshnits and the CFM did it all the time. Reluctantly they outfitted thier Dawn Trader class ships to carry a shuttle. I'm still debating how this ship is docked and brought along. the cargo hold is large enough that the rear cargo hatch can be opened and the shuttle flown inside- there would be docking buffers for it but you give up a lot of space for cargo doing that. Since it was an after thought and not part of the original design the shuttle also has an external docking buffer on top of the aft section but perhaps with no air lock hatch. A hatch could have been cut through the hull near the docking buffer which would require the whole cargo hold to function as an air lock and the pilot would have to dock the shuttel there then EVA from the shuttle to the hatch. The cargo hold can function as an air lock since its cargo doors do open to space to allow the shuttle to fly inside. so while piggy backing the shuttle is a pain its doable. Also the landed Dawn Trader can use its cargo doors like a ramp an allow trucks and equipment to roll on and off the cargo hold. Since the Dawn Trader functions as a paramilitary and auxillary warship this is ideal for troop and armor vehicle deployment, making the Dawn Trader an ideal lander for hostile landings, weapon turrets are blazing away and the ship comes in hot. cargo ramp drops and tanks and APCs roll off after the magnetic grapples release them. shuttle flies wing man and escort during this proceedure. once tanks and APCs roll the Dawn Trader is lifting even as the cargo doors are still closing. Time on ground: 10 minutes. Since Space Fleet is ham strung with legistlation barring if from landing Frigates with atomic drives on the planets it has none. So if a hostile troop landing is called for they are forced to contract with the CFM for the ships. CFM captians are not always concerned with the nit pickiness of the law so if they think they can get away with it they will land on outposts or Light population level planets within the UPF and do damn well as they like in the Rim. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 4, 2012 - 10:33pm | I had to think through where the battery weapons would be One is on the belly of the sphere while in space but when landed it rotates to the nose position on the sphere. the other can only really go on the top side (landed) of the cargo hold but if they shuttle is docked there then it obscures the field of fire. So there are two docking buffers on the sides of the cargo holds with hatches that mate to the belly hatch of the cargo shuttle. this means the Dawn trader can piggy back two shuttles but to move cargo its done the hard way by opening the cargo bay and robotic arms pass it from the cargo hold to the shuttle waiting behind the ship. these hatches dont funtion as air locks themselves they simply mate to the shuttle and allow the crew of the shuttle to debark if there is atmosphere in the cargo hold. The LC of course is in the nose of the ship when in space but when landed points straight up. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 5, 2012 - 6:09am | Decks: my average rule of thumb is a minimum of the hull length divided by 10 for the number of decks and probably about double that for max number of decks. These are very rought number so I'm figuring the Dawn Trader to be about 10 to 12 or so decks, especialy since the cargo hold should be a large portion of the ship. I also assume that on a cargo carrier like this there is plenty of grated catwalks and "fence" sections that can be used to section off the hold even creating cages. So the tail section will be the cargo hold plus one deck (access to the battery weapon and vacuum suit locker and possibly cargo handling robots and tanks for compressing the air to save some of the air in the hold before openning the cargo doors. Mid ships: KHs ships dont really need an engine room like on star trek. but an engineering section that is a workshop and maintenance area and computer support for Damage control. is in order the ship's active defenses are here- water tanks for the MS, main Life support and ships launch and work pods (i think two like the UPF frigate but these are optomized to assist with cargo handling ie heavier duty robotic arms for grapsing cargo units- lets say it takes two work pods to push the average cargo container around in space. So arbitrarily I'm calling it 3 decks with pilon/mast access on the middle deck Fore: its essentially a gimbolled sphere that rotates 90 degrees. this requires a center deck at the equator that will mate to the side airlock when in space and to the hatch to the mid ship area when landed. then an equal number of decks above and beneath that so it will be an odd number: 3, or 5 (7 seems like too much) I'm leaning toward 5 decks here totall is: 10 decks with the cargo hold being being a huge cathedral of a deck. As with any ship I design there are crawl spaces and tubes between decks and the space between decks is filled with machinery, power runs, Life support ducks and such. so if the ship has 10 decks it almost has 20 in reality. Some of the equipment in the KHs manual that is part of the ship and almost never gets represented on a deck plan is also between the decks. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 5, 2012 - 12:07pm | I had to think through where the battery weapons would be.
I always like to mount battery weapons on the "fattest" part of the ship (typically the mid-section) so as to offer the largest possible field of fire/fewest obstructions. More so after reading the description of the East Indiaman freighter issue where the nose mounted LB has obstructions so as to limit fire to the fore and left only. Granted your mid-mount engines on the fattest portion of the hull present an obstacle here...assuming the mid-section is still fattest. Granted the cargo are (stern) should technically be the fattest, the mid mount drives obviously have to clear it so the mid will still be sticking "further out" so to speak. My suggestion for two batteries: arrange the engines in an inverted T rather than an equally spaced "Mercedes Benz" logo. The side drives can still rotate for atmospheric landing while the top drive is stationary for forward thrust. Plop one battery on the belly and the other on the upper engine housing (re: "crow's nest"). Or if the stern cargo area extends past the mid-belly, simply have the two batteries on the rotating side drives a la crow's nests. I have no problems mounting weapons on engine pods. Traveller does it, re: their 400T close escort... 
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August 5, 2012 - 1:14pm | Mid section is narrower. Dorsal aft section is a logical place though I'd almost like to say this craft uses two grade B engines instead of 3 grade A engines and simply have two wings; one to each side. Logically a battery weapon on the dorsal aft section would have a 360degree field of fire minus the FF arc covered by the LC and i could live with this as simply an ideosyncracy of the classes design. Make it the LB and between it and the LC there is 360 degree reach out and touch someone laser fire. As for the battery on the belly of the foreward sphere its not going to have any obstruction and when landed its simply rotated to the forward nose position. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 27, 2016 - 2:40pm | The usual problem attaches of course: belly-lander decks on a tail-lander ship. The gimballed sphere idea is interesting as a solution, but what about the aft section? |
January 27, 2016 - 6:12pm | The usual problem attaches of course: belly-lander decks on a tail-lander ship. I'm not sure if deck plans were rendered for this or not. If you're referring to the Traveller "Gazelle" graphic I posted, that was merely used to illustrate the feasibility of weaponry positioned on the drive nacelles. |
