 December 5, 2010 - 9:28pm | Thinking about the Rim did a little research: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_government But what would a coaltion government in the Rim look like? What sort of institutions would be associated with it? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 5, 2010 - 9:37pm | The name suggests that the 3 races have aggreed to cooperate in a parliment Is there a Prime minister? Does the CFM play a role? There are 9 planets with Hvy or moderate populations, that number jumps to 13 if you include light populations (I dont see any reason for outpost to have formal representation in the government) The above can be broken down another way 3 systems dominated by 1 of the 3 races plus 3 more systems with mixed populations. I think a 13 seat parliment might be the way to go and I think the fact that each planet with a light or higher population gets a seat might just be the ticket to explain the high amount of inhabitable real estate in the Rim. that all three races realized they'd have more control in the government if they controlled more planets thus they got real aggressive about colonizing at least within their own systems I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 December 6, 2010 - 4:48am | (I dont see any reason for outpost to have formal representation in the government) That's right don't give a lowly little outpost/colony representation in government just order them to pay taxes and do what you say with no representation in their government. Wait a minute I heard something like that happened a while ago. Now let me see what was the outcome of taxation without representation? Anyone remember? Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
December 6, 2010 - 5:41am | I think its a matter of scale and is better compared to an air force weather station above the artic circle wouldn't have a senator and rep. in congress. the word outpost suggest temporary, very new, and very thin population. I wouldn't have expected James Town to get a say back in England. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 6, 2010 - 9:10am | Weather station or University sponsored research station no representation but Jamestown the independent mining colony with 40-50 families and a whole lot of robots/automation producing sufficient revenue may not take to kindly having all their profits go toward housing for the four million population planet. Back on track a coalition government like in Europe or Isreal (real world ones I am familiar with) is formed when one political party fails to win a majority in the parliment/house. In order to get anything done they must have the support of one or more (usually several of the smaller parties) to even open the political session or confirm the prime minister/president. This may be unfamiliar to those used to the American two-party system but is actually much more common form of democracy. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 December 6, 2010 - 9:41am | If you want to see a Coalition government closer to home, look at Canada. While it is a sovereign nation, the head of state is still the queen of england, and it has a Governor general who communicates with the royals, a prime minister, and a parliment that is made up of 4 parties, including one that is conservative, one that is democratic, one that has been trying to have Quebec secede and one that is liberal. Recently we saw three parties try to form an allience to oust the prime minister, but it never came to pass. Anyway that might be a government you guys might look at if you're interested in a model for the Rim Coalition. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
December 6, 2010 - 12:18pm | I want to use this thread to constructively consider ideas for fleshing out a little bit of what the Rim Coalition government is, describe some of its institutions, and maybe policies- no doubt is has a constitution that details how much representation each planet gets and how new planets enter into the political process after they've been established and formerly joined. IIRC western territories had population requirements before they could become a state and join the US and I dont think that is unreasonable. Considering real world coalitions is a good idea though that might break down a little as it seems to me that the Rim formed a coalition government out of desperation to resist the sathar- not how real world coalitions seem to be formed, so I'd expect differences. I've suggested a prime minister and a parliment anyone else have ideas? The rules are a bit vague on what the different population levels are so lets table any arguements over whether an outpost should have representation or not. I'd be happy to debate that in a new thread titled "population levels: just what is an outpost anyway?' I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 December 6, 2010 - 1:10pm | Not sure there is a firm constitution for the Rim Coalition. I see the Humma wanting to dominate for planet ownership and the Ifshnit wanting to dominate for business interest and the two clashing. Caught between them are the Osakar who are political enough to play the two and manipulate them for the greater good. And the Osakar could really care less about Humma expansion or Ifshnit profits. Personally the Osakar would like to keep the Humma in check and the Ifshnit from monopolizing. Here then are the three parties of the coalition and their motives. The Osakar may want a constitution. The Humma don't see other forms of government not their own as effective or strong. The Ifshnit would rather just stick to contracts for everything. So what ends up happening is the Osakar try to form a representative government while settling with treaties and contracts from the Humma and Ifshnit for the time being. As for a prime minister I don't see any group agreeing to any other taking the post but their own. I do see each group pushing for more representatives than the other. Hence each tries to clam more planets to have representatives from. Thus our three inhabited planet system may be a stretch and the third planet is only barely habitable and inhabited just to get the representative in the council. Maybe they act much like the continental congress during the revolutionary war, Always arguing and serving their own interests. I'd also say that they only pick a president/prime minister when in session and his post is lost after the session closes. I also see mixed world colonies so that the extra representatives can be gained. All this shakiness in government is why the UPF has not just welcomed them in wholesale into the federation. They are not the Thirteen Colonies united against England. They are three sovereign peoples forced to unite for the common good. The Colonies were not sovereign and didn't initially want to break with England. Our three races do not have a parent to even think about breaking from. With out the Sathar they would have not needed to unite. One race is very proud, the other is very selfish, and the other would rather do it's own thing but can't. Yet for protection they had to turn to their neighbours. -iggy |
December 6, 2010 - 1:25pm | A coalition government could come about as various Trade cartels get together and work out trade agreements that standardize prices, decide on an agreed opon value for precious metals/goods, and regulate taxes imposed on imports and exports. These Trade cartels (the Capellan free merchants) eventually take on the role of a government run by a commitee comprised of representatives that have been assigned to a governing post on a colony that was built by the trade company. The Rim might have started this way and over time the trade colonies have grown in size to becoming city-states but they are still run by a corporate assigned governor who answers to the parent company (more then likely the Cappellan free Merchants) who is the actual "government' of the region. Of course it is the responsibility of the trade company to provide security for its colonies, which would explain the Flight. This approach does not center on the Sathar being the threat that creates the Rim, but rather focuses on trade being the impetus for the evolution of the Rim Coalition. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
December 6, 2010 - 2:05pm | @ Deryn_Rys now this is good stuff. I've also been thinking about the origin/evolution of the CFM and in light of the name CFM and the fact that the planet Faire in the Capella system is all water with only 5 islands (I've generally assumed they must be fairly large island) i imagine that the CFM must have started with a tradition of sea faring. any other ideas? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 6, 2010 - 2:48pm | Actually I always thought that the Ifsnits were the main trade cartel in the Rim, and utilized the Humma in the role of security, or as privateers who insured their trade monopoly in the region. Osakar would serve as diplomats, and even as missionaries, on expeditions. The odd man out so to speak have always been the Mechanon who I've always felt really didn't fit in the book, but were added in to round out 4 core Rim races. I think that instead of the Mechanons the Saurians (from Dragon magazine) would have been a better fit in that set but that would have given us two reptilian races and I think TSR was trying to give us one race of each species type (not counting humans). I like to think of the Rim being a kin to the era where we had the Hudson bay company and other trade cartels controlling large areas of colonial america and financing expeditions into unknown areas to expand trade, which is probably how they first came opon the Frontier. In my opinion they didn't come to help the Frontier because of the Sathar, they saw the Sathar attack as an opportunity to make a profit by providing the Frontier with much needed resources to rebuild after the war. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
December 6, 2010 - 3:00pm | IIRC one canon statement somewhere stated that the Sathar had plagued the Rim for a long time. and you are quite correct that the CFM is the major "mega corp" player in the Rim and the point was made somewhere that the CFM or the Rim government was not going to tollerate any of the typical nonsense from the other mega corps in Rim territory. The Mechanons were explicitly a NPC race. There isn't much room on the map for another race in that quadrant. Besides the system named Mechano seems to be outside of Rim territory. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 December 6, 2010 - 8:28pm | I never would have pegged the Rim Coalition as having a parliament and a prime minister. In the most general sense, a coalition is simply two or more groups who maintain their own self interest, but whose self interest happens to coincide on at least one issue which they have formally agreed to cooperate on. Members of a coalition needn't be united under one rule and they don't even have to like each other, they just need to have enough civility to see the common goal and cooperate on it. Since the Rim Coalition was created to fight the Sathar, I think NATO would be the best modern era example to model from. I think there is a political council of some sort that meets yearly, while a military council meets weekly. I think the biggest things they've done are standardizing a lot of parts, ammo, and weapons so that members can share supplies. They've also set up a command and communication structure that allows all NATO military assets to be placed under one command in the event of a war. If a member state was attacked by a foreign power all NATO military assets could be called upon to repel the invader.....but France is still France and Germany is still Germany. Likewise, I think the Rim Coalition would cooperate on military matters and would have some commonalities in foreign policy, but each member planet would still be it's own entity. That's just my thought on the matter. The Rim Coalition could be fleshed out a hundred different ways. |
December 6, 2010 - 8:40pm | @ Adamm: Thats a great take on it. How would you factor in the 3 systems with native races and the 3 systems with mixed race colonies? Any differnces in how they joined or how they participate? i suppose if the mixed race colonies were well established by SW1 then they would quickly sign on to the Rim Coalition Treaty. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 6, 2010 - 8:59pm | I just had a Duh moment: I read the entry in Zebs on the Rim "The Rim is a loose confederation of planets with a small spacefleet called the FLIGHT." after looking up what a Confederation is vs a federation it seems that Adamm's comment was dead on: soverign states that have agreed to work together for defense and foreign policy but at the end of the day remain soverign. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 6, 2010 - 9:51pm | Well since the War with the Sathar is over a possible example of a confederation evolving from a desperation to repel the invaders would be (drum is rolling) The United Nations. They have a selected leader and each member is independent doing their own things but all get together for things of mutual concern. Now whether they are general assembly or security council or have departments with both would be interesting. Also how minor races are represented would also need discussion. Something to work with. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 December 6, 2010 - 10:01pm | The name suggests that the 3 races have aggreed to cooperate in a parliment Is there a Prime minister? Does the CFM play a role? There are 9 planets with Hvy or moderate populations, that number jumps to 13 if you include light populations (I dont see any reason for outpost to have formal representation in the government) The above can be broken down another way 3 systems dominated by 1 of the 3 races plus 3 more systems with mixed populations. I think a 13 seat parliment might be the way to go and I think the fact that each planet with a light or higher population gets a seat might just be the ticket to explain the high amount of inhabitable real estate in the Rim. that all three races realized they'd have more control in the government if they controlled more planets thus they got real aggressive about colonizing at least within their own systems Prime Minister, Chairman, Adjudicator(I like this one), the head job is essentially the same; he speaks for the Rim in foreign diplomatic matters and can act unilatieraly in their name, provided he commands a majority in the Coalition Parliament. I would say the CFM would be very involved; it may even play the role in the Rim that PGC played in the Frontier. Thirteen seats sounds about right, just make sure the Cabinet posts are included as well. " 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death." |
December 7, 2010 - 3:39am | @ Will dude I like Chairman- especially in light of the CFM having to have some role in the founding Undoubtably each member planet gets a vote and a veto. This makes actually getting a bit of legistlation through a pain as just one hold out and its nixed. Unless we state that a 3/4s majority overturns a veto. Since Will mentioned Chairman, I'm liking the idea of calling the ruling body the Board of the Rim Coalition or just The Board for short. though other corporate titles could work here as well. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 7, 2010 - 1:53pm | Perhaps you should include a panel of special judges one from each race who would only vote in the case of a tie in the lower board of selectmen. This way you insure that if the lower house becomes deadlocked in a decision they could appeal to a higher authority who would vote not along planetary lines, but would vote on matters in accordance to what is best for each race. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
December 7, 2010 - 4:34pm | @ Will dude I like Chairman- especially in light of the CFM having to have some role in the founding Undoubtably each member planet gets a vote and a veto. This makes actually getting a bit of legistlation through a pain as just one hold out and its nixed. Unless we state that a 3/4s majority overturns a veto. Since Will mentioned Chairman, I'm liking the idea of calling the ruling body the Board of the Rim Coalition or just The Board for short. though other corporate titles could work here as well. Chairman will work, as will calling the ruling body simply the Board(short for Rim Coalition Board or, maybe Board of Governors, or even gods know what the full name of the Board really is, as it's only referred to in full in the Rim's charter/constitution/governing contract, and not even Board members know its full name). There definitely has to be a ¾ majority, or something similar, to override a veto, or nothing will get done. " 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death." |
December 7, 2010 - 6:43pm | Perhaps you should include a panel of special judges one from each race who would only vote in the case of a tie in the lower board of selectmen. This way you insure that if the lower house becomes deadlocked in a decision they could appeal to a higher authority who would vote not along planetary lines, but would vote on matters in accordance to what is best for each race. I think with 13 seats there wont be any ties plus the 13th would be the Chairman and voted so by the 13, it'd be his responsibility to break ties thus he votes last. the 3 judges, one from each race are excellent for a judiciary; each planet is soverign but there will be a need for a tribunal for matters arise between respective planets. probably should call this the Tribunal. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 December 7, 2010 - 7:02pm | A 13th member isn't necessary to break ties. There is usually 1 that is referred to as the "swing vote", the one you need to convince. This is the job of the chairman. The chairman's vote only matters if there is a tie. In the event of a tie, the chairman's vote decides, regardless of whether there is an even number or odd number of voters, as some voters may abstain. Thus having an odd number doesn't matter anyway. The number 13 was simply set by the number of founding colonies in the union. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
December 9, 2010 - 6:30pm | The number 13 would only work if each planet had only one representative. Few governments work like this simply because the volume of work involved in running any government especially an interplanetary one is so large. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
December 9, 2010 - 8:59pm | why not hvy populations get 3 reps moderate populations get 2 reps and Light populations get 1 rep? That would give the Rim 28 reps (a managable number and easy to remember and use) I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 9, 2010 - 10:57pm | Are we talking about a unified Rim government or a coalition of sovereign governments? I don't see Ifshnit living on a Humma world having much say in that worlds government. Same for the Humma on the Osakar world, the Osakar on the Ifshnit world, and the other combinations. These aliens will be carrying passports and visas when not on a world of their own race. And maybe even on some worlds of their own race that are separate sovereign governments. I don't think any of the Humma worlds are sovereign from the Highest One, but there may be an Ifshnit world sovereign from the other Ifshnit worlds and the Osakar are likely to have each world sovereign. Let's not give too much organization and power to the Rim Coalition. If we do it ceases to be a coalition. -iggy |
December 10, 2010 - 5:08am | If Each planet handles its own affairs much like the Frontier worlds then the Rim Coalition only handles interstellar issues. The 28 member government sounds good. With support staffs it would be much more but the number of representatives works. The UPF has alot of difficulty working since some members are do not cooperate (Dramune). Same thing could be happening with the Coalition especially since each race has a very different outlook on how to live. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 December 10, 2010 - 10:25am | Another thing to consider: the Coalition's "Executive Branch" or bureacracy. This great discussion has focused on the Coalition's legislature. But what about the bureacracy that carries out any government's work? I get the feeling from Zeb's that the Coalition does not have a very big bureacracy--unlike the UPF, which I would imagine has a very big and entrenched bureacracy. |
December 10, 2010 - 10:26am | I would gather their bueraucracy boils down to "let the CFM handle everything." " 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death." |
December 11, 2010 - 11:15am | Exactly what I was thinking. If I recall, it says in Zeb's description of the Rim that the CFM has dominated Rim society for centuries. |
December 14, 2010 - 12:25am | I've sort of sifted, compiled and added a new wrinkle and wrote up a doc on the Rim coalition government in the zebs project. http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/1718 Thanks for the great discussion and ideas I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 15, 2010 - 6:42pm | Hey, The Rim's navy is called the Flight so what do we call the other branches of their military is their version of the marines more of a european naval infantry? we have reference to the Hopping 109th humma regiment but that only tells us that all humma regiments are being raised. Does this mean that each soverign planet raises troops and contributes? Do we call their ground pounders the army? no doubt each planet has its own forces since they are all soverign and have their own names and such. air superiority will be their own responsibility but what happens when the ground forces fighting for the Rim need air superiority assets? are units from one of the member planets "federalized" and dispatched? If thats the case then can you image ifshnit wet naval elements from Faire being federalized for a need elsewhere and being transported to some sathar infested hellhole to support the Flight's ground operations in a riverine theater of action like in vietnam? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
