 March 18, 2009 - 5:53am | AD book page 11 says "Hypno-training is a teaching system that involves hypnotism, memorization and the use of drugs that improve the mind's ability to learn. a character with enough experience points can learn a new skill or skill level at a hypno-training center in five days (100 hours) for 100 Cr. Originally I had thought, and I dont know why, that hypno-training was like you go sit in a chair for 5 or 8 hours then go about your day but come back same time tomorrow for 5 days. Having just re-read the above it sounds like you go into the center for 5 days and the training process is 100 hrs straight. 20hrs/ day for 5 days and it only cost 100cr. If you're going into a center for 5 days like that then the center will handle the housekeeping and food prep and whatever have you so a 100 Cr seems cheap unless they've gone in for massive automation but still maintenance cost, spare parts for the robots, food cost, drugs cost, taxes overhead yada yada yada And that is the top of the line training you could just see an expert and be taught as long as he's 2 levels higher in the skill. But if the top of the line training is 100 Cr what do you pay a teacher? Then there is the po' mans learning: Practice. for which I'd say exact a 50 Cr fee in city environments to cover buying manuals, ammo, rifle range fees, and other materials for teaching yourself. and I'd limit this to a certain level (no higher than say 3) if your someplace like Volturnus stuck in the wilderness and practicing a skill then there is no cost obivously. Teaching: I like the teacher must be of higher level than you but the 2 levels higher means you can only rise to lvl 4 then suddenly you cant learn from a teacher, you'll do better practicing on your own? I'd go with 5th & 6th level being learned from a lvl 6 practioner as at this point you both are so versed in the arcana of this field that you're mutal expertise and professionalism will keep you on track. Hypno-training: I think its too cheap I'd say go with 200 cr / level but still leave it the fastest method. So that a lvl 4 skill would cost 800 Cr. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 March 18, 2009 - 2:11pm | Good points. But... In my experience, most people "hand wave" the training cost and training time requirements. In effect your character has the new skill or new skill level when he has the experience points to pay for it. About the only restriction is that your character gains his new skill/level in between games, not during the game itself. Some referees do make you pay the training cost. |
 March 18, 2009 - 2:58pm | what do you pay a teacher? My guess standard NPC hireling costs from the back of the Expanded Book. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
March 18, 2009 - 9:31pm | what do you pay a teacher? My guess standard NPC hireling costs from the back of the Expanded Book. That is the point though if a teacher must be 2 levels higher than the skill being learned then to get Technician lvl 1 you'd have to pay 70 CR/ day for a lvl 3 teacher which far out strips hypno-training in 2 days. Even if you go with the lowest paid NPC, sharpshooter, and if you wanted to learn lvl 2 projectile weapons you'd pay 50 Cr./day for a lvl 4 teacher. I really think that the number for hypno-training was really pulled out of someones butt at the time the rules were written. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 18, 2009 - 10:00pm | I really think that the number for hypno-training was really pulled out of someones butt at the time the rules were written. It does seem to be out of step with all the other costs. Maybe it's a Typo and should be 1000Cr. |
 March 18, 2009 - 10:59pm | Things are cheap in the Frontier. Try finding brand new transportation for $2000 here, or the latest assault rifles for $300...that was cheap even in the 1980s. I mean seriously, a star fighter runs under a million, even the cheapest armed USAF planes are in the millions (the A-10 Thunderbolt aka Warthog is considered a bargain at $18mil) and is restricted to atmospheric use. As an aside, I would only mandate the training for a new skill. Developing an existing skill shouldn't call for training, that's why it's called "experience"...you use the skill, gain the XP over the course of a few adventures, and move that skill higher as a result. To cite a real world example: A person goes to the local community college and learns via a class how to ride a motorcycle, buys a small 250cc bike and rides for a while. His skills improve, and he advances to bigger and better bikes over time. As opposed to the person who doesn't go to school and tries to learn on a powerful race replica (something that requires a good degree of skill to operate), and as a result stacks the bike up within his first 5 miles. |
March 19, 2009 - 4:55pm | I agree with jedi, hypnotraining is a bargain compared to hiring a teacher. Since it's a fast and dangerous mode of learning(especially if the hypno-learning center is, say, a Sathar front), I think it should cost more than hiring a teacher and learning things the slow and sure way. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
March 19, 2009 - 9:11pm | I agree with jedi, hypnotraining is a bargain compared to hiring a teacher. Since it's a fast and dangerous mode of learning(especially if the hypno-learning center is, say, a Sathar front), I think it should cost more than hiring a teacher and learning things the slow and sure way. Maybe not. Hiring a living teacher could be very expensive. There is the teacher, a place of instruction, books, equipment (if necessary), mock ups (if necessary), etc. This could be very expensive. The book entry is kind of vague. Let us suppose that a system, such as that in "Serpent's Reach" by C. J. Cherryh, is in use. You take a dose of "hypno drug" and are then hooked up to a "virtual reality hypno learning machine". You do everything in VR, no need for books, tools, mock ups. All that is necessary is a classroom, the hypno learning machines, the drugs and someone to collect the money and watch over things. This person does not need to even know any of the skills being taught. If such technology was common place it could be very low in price compared to live teaching. I like your point about the danger that this opens you up do. You would be really out of it when hooked up to a machine and under the influence of the drug. You could be secretly "programed" to do anything. Whoever controled the machine would have to be trustworthy. As you say, an excellent Sather front. |
 March 19, 2009 - 9:18pm | Interesting idea. Hypno training could be the start of a some cool adventures. At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
March 19, 2009 - 10:59pm | +1 on the Sathar front. That could be real interesting, telling your players that they need to break into a building and make off with some technology, which turns out to be some sort of UPF classified secret. The whole time they'd believe they are doing the right thing... |
March 20, 2009 - 3:23pm | The book entry is kind of vague. Let us suppose that a system, such as that in "Serpent's Reach" by C. J. Cherryh, is in use. You take a dose of "hypno drug" and are then hooked up to a "virtual reality hypno learning machine". You do everything in VR, no need for books, tools, mock ups. All that is necessary is a classroom, the hypno learning machines, the drugs and someone to collect the money and watch over things. This person does not need to even know any of the skills being taught. Or the learning virus from Steve Perry's Matador Trilogy...no expense save for the med tech, med facilities and the cost of manufacturing the virus itself. No need even for a classroom. Of course, in that particular story, the learning virus could only legally be used by the Confed government, meaning any other copies had to be purchased on the black market, meaning lots and lots of stads(credit standards).... But, good point about it being cheaper if it were commonplace. There could even be franchises in every shopping mall. "Want to be a star pilot. No need for expensive simulators or instructors, no time-consuming classes, no tedious ground school sessions. Just five quick hypno-sessions at your local SkillzRUs, and you'll be flying high before you can say 'Vincent Morgaine.' Dial Chronocom Subspace Relay 1800GETSKILLZ for a listing of store locations nearest you." "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
March 20, 2009 - 6:41pm | But, good point about it being cheaper if it were commonplace. There could even be franchises in every shopping mall. "Want to be a star pilot. No need for expensive simulators or instructors, no time-consuming classes, no tedious ground school sessions. Just five quick hypno-sessions at your local SkillzRUs, and you'll be flying high before you can say 'Vincent Morgaine.' Dial Chronocom Subspace Relay 1800GETSKILLZ for a listing of store locations nearest you." This is great. You should polish this up and submit it to the Star Frontiersman magazine as an ad. |
 March 21, 2009 - 1:27am | There is a good reason it is vague in the books... several different sci-fi series had variations on the theme. One version was a VR. Another was nanomachines that physically rewired your brain. Yet another was imprinting other's memory engrams over your own (Geo. Alec Effinger was the author). Another still was mRNA injected into your brain. Yet another was implanted chips. This was all stuff in short stories and novels in the late 70's & early 80's. Sten was a VR/engram hybrid; the Machine put you in the perspective of a hero... recorded from his memory engrams. In the one shown in the novel, Sten is "along for the ride" in the perspective of this hero, right up to his getting made a hero.* The variety of rapid training schemes in sci-fi was bewildering and varied. Good reason to leave a Semi-Generic Ruleset somewhat vague. * Remember, a hero dies for his country. A soldier's job isn't to be a hero, but to make heroes of the enemy. |
 March 21, 2009 - 9:29am | I hate training in RPGs. SF is no exception. In my book, you get the XP, you get the levels. It's... MAGIC! If I want to relieve PCs of extra cash, I have many ways of doing that. The biggest problem is that training time can severely disrupt a campaign - since most have some sort of timeline to deal with. So I just drop the whole thing. |
March 22, 2009 - 5:16am | It would seem to me, as long as the player character has someone or some source for learning a new skill, it shouldn't be an issue. No reason a PSA:tech character can't learn to shoot via some time spent with one of his/her PSA:military co-adventurers, as long as that player has sufficient XP to gain the skill. Yeah, it probably should take some degree of time to learn a new skill, but I'm sticking to my guns on the pre-existing skills. XP used to advance those should be automatic: no training, no time. Paying for it should be a last resort, unless it's something really extravagent (ship skills, bionics, etc) |
March 22, 2009 - 9:13am | Plus - just use Volturnus as an example - what if training facilities and experts are not available? Would the PCs be stuck at 1st level with a huge pile of XP as they go through the Volturnus modules? Dealing with remote alien planets and training just does not work... |
March 22, 2009 - 12:24pm | Plus - just use Volturnus as an example - what if training facilities and experts are not available? Would the PCs be stuck at 1st level with a huge pile of XP as they go through the Volturnus modules? Dealing with remote alien planets and training just does not work... no they'd practice their skills and the two separate pirate outposts would certainly facilitate practicing tech skills. They could also learn some basics of melee weapons from an Ul-mor (a four armed opponenet would keep them on their toes and a stone knife would be just as good as a sonic knife for practice) Plus with the eorna ability to wipe out memories they might also have some hypno training equipment as well. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 22, 2009 - 10:29pm | I suppose as a compromise you could make the PCs pause at certain times for training in the Volturnus series as described... My over-arching point is that training (or the need for it/lack of it) should not, under any circumstances, disrupt the campaign. A ref has enough to worry about with his story than to fit in that additional x-factor. That said, I could see some sort of commitment necessary after the campaign is complete - in the inter-campaign "dead time" when the PCs are sitting around waiting for their next job/assignment/adventure. |
March 22, 2009 - 11:52pm | My over-arching point is that training (or the need for it/lack of it) should not, under any circumstances, disrupt the campaign. A ref has enough to worry about with his story than to fit in that additional x-factor. I see your point however its not a terribly big deal in SF-0 as so much time is spent walking around on 10 hr turns in the desert and something close to that in the caverns- I was keeping track of days to properly pay the PCs and there is lots of time without tactical encounters I simply allowed practice during those times as much a week game time can be handled in 5 minutes real world time. plus a void trip to volturnus would require 50 hrs time to compute by the cannon and with a 20 hr day and if the ship only had 1 astrogator it would take 5 days unless he pushed himself to do overtime plus at least one place in the rules suggest that a 5 LY void trip would take 5 days then a 1ADF frieghter could slow form 1% of Light speed in 2 days that is a total of 12 with nothing to much happening- I handled it with 5 minutes discussion. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 April 3, 2009 - 8:04pm | what if hypno training (or other) wore off after a determined amount of time. GM: "Slugaworth is successfully in breaking the encryption code which grants access to the computer. As he attempts to retrieve the information something clicks in his head, he pauses. Turns around with a blank look on his face, 'I don't remember how to do this!'" Player: "Were screwed." GM: "Is that in character?"  |
 April 3, 2009 - 9:00pm | That would be an awesome limitation. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
April 3, 2009 - 9:55pm | what if hypno training (or other) wore off after a determined amount of time. GM: "Slugaworth is successfully in breaking the encryption code which grants access to the computer. As he attempts to retrieve the information something clicks in his head, he pauses. Turns around with a blank look on his face, 'I don't remember how to do this!'" Player: "Were screwed." GM: "Is that in character?" How about this a critical failure while using the skill cause the loss of the skill but if a character has learned say lvl 2 through hyptno training and then latter on learns lvl 3 by another means there will be no loss caused by a critical failure? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
