 March 11, 2009 - 9:54am | There was a WW2 movie of Jame Coburn as an American pilot? and a Japanese soldier alone on an island who though enemies become friends It was reprised in Enemy Mine as a sci-fi movie. So how would you approach this as Star Frontiers adventure? It would certainly work for 1 GM and 1 player situation. A sathar and one of the PC races? Sathar hynotizes the PC and then they get along as friends! Not much fun for the PC. for that to work as a game you'd have to eliminate the possibility of an easy kill by both sides- no ammo for lasers and autopistols the PC would have to have an effective defense against hypnotic effects or a very high ability that would make it easy for him to resist. You'd have to have a seriously dangerous enviroment to force them to work together to survive. Or would this work better with say a mechanon? or some other race? EDIT: I also think you'd have to have some well developed ideas about the NPCs culture to give the game the right flavor- that said the sathar might be impossible for this- I cant really imagine much in the way of culture for them. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 March 11, 2009 - 11:16am | How about this: a PC and a Sather Agent (could be any race or gender). Would that work? |
 March 11, 2009 - 12:20pm | I was thinking about a PC and someone from Snowball. They are untrusting of outsiders which in the begining would be interesting, than after time, a few blows, some root beer everyone lived happily ever after. ...wait.... oh and some football. |
 March 11, 2009 - 1:54pm | I would probably go with a Zuraqqorr for such a scenario. Less suicidal, less controlling, but same ambitions. Make the PC a vrusk for a bug vs bug spin. |
 March 11, 2009 - 3:51pm | I don't think a Sathar's ability to hynotizes is 100% effective, so a PC should have the ability to resist it. And Sathar on a whole are less phsyically able as most of the frontier's species, if finding the Sathar can not hypnotizes the PC may just go along just to survive. Planning to betray the PC once rescue is available, and depending on who's side comes to rescue first. For this kind of match up it would take a long time for either of them to even come close to understanding each other, never mind trusting each other. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
March 12, 2009 - 1:35am | I just don't see a sathar cooperating with any of the core four races (or Zeb races either for that matter). For one thing, it has to trust the other player enough to sleep at night, without the possibility of said person disecting the live specimen...something that nobody in the UPF has been able to attempt. Methinks it would simply try to seduce/hypnotize or decimate the other person, or kill itself as anything else would constitute capture. |
March 12, 2009 - 5:17am | @Sargonarhes: I see you're point about a sathar and the core 4 races having a difficult time understanding each other but how is it that 1 successful hypno attempt and the sathar's victem understands the aliens control? How do we explain that? is it that there is no communication with sathar just because they don't care to though they could if they wanted to? @ Pineappleleader: that was a Duh moment when I read your idea- sathar agent- so obvious and deffinetly workable; the NPC would be spouting lots of sathar propaganda all the time and though he may see the need for cooporation you'd expect him to attempt to kill the PC no matter who showed up for rescue. there is no friendship that develope though. I had a feeling that a lot of the other aliens would be put forward and they also have better potential for this scenario. It occurs to me that the sathar slave race seen in one of the star frontiersman: the bora kai would make a good oponent for this they must serve the sathar though they dispise them and yet an honest friendship could spring up with one of the core 4 or Zebs races. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 12, 2009 - 6:11am | I was thinking about a PC and someone from Snowball. They are untrusting of outsiders which in the begining would be interesting, than after time, a few blows, some root beer everyone lived happily ever after. ...wait.... oh and some football. When you say Snoball, you're refering to the Bugs in the System module? the alien you mean is that the Matrix or the ape like geneticly engineered servants? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 12, 2009 - 7:04am | I was thinking about a PC and someone from Snowball. They are untrusting of outsiders which in the begining would be interesting, than after time, a few blows, some root beer everyone lived happily ever after. ...wait.... oh and some football. When you say Snoball, you're refering to the Bugs in the System module? the alien you mean is that the Matrix or the ape like geneticly engineered servants? |
March 14, 2009 - 8:50pm | Well maybe one of the Sathar's slave races would work better for the scenario, but they might as well go home with the frontier's races once rescued. I don't think the Sathar would just take them back in with out heavy questioning and reconditioning. Knowing that they cooperated with the enemy and such, will they be able to fire upon them again? He spared your life then but will they do so the next time you see them? Any race freed from Sathar control would likely figure this out given time with the enemy. The Sathar would never trust them again either, being paranoid to the extreme. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
March 15, 2009 - 4:21am | ...add to that, who in their right mind is going to attempt to raise a sathar hatchling? LOL |
 March 19, 2009 - 7:06pm | Barry Longyears Book Manifest Deity from which enemy mine was written us a great mine of info and races for any scifi setting |
March 19, 2009 - 7:08pm | Sorry Manifest Destiny, kiddy assualt on keyboard. |
 March 20, 2009 - 3:37pm | ...add to that, who in their right mind is going to attempt to raise a sathar hatchling? LOL The Frontier Peace Organization. Or, the Frontier equivalent of PETA. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
March 20, 2009 - 3:41pm | Well maybe one of the Sathar's slave races would work better for the scenario, but they might as well go home with the frontier's races once rescued. I don't think the Sathar would just take them back in with out heavy questioning and reconditioning. Knowing that they cooperated with the enemy and such, will they be able to fire upon them again? He spared your life then but will they do so the next time you see them? Any race freed from Sathar control would likely figure this out given time with the enemy. The Sathar would never trust them again either, being paranoid to the extreme. "Never trust them again?" Try,"drain their brains then shoot them dead out of hand." Seriously, I think the Enemy Mine approach would work better with a different set of enemies, like, say, a Clarion Royal Marine and a Streel corporate goon stranded together, or a Vrusk fighter pilot and a member of the Krataar Liberation Corps....or, as someone has suggested, even a UPF pilot and a Zuraqquor one. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
March 21, 2009 - 6:24am | I find myself agreeing with will- I just spent 20 minutes searching Zebs remastered and the original AD and I can't find the reference to the Free World Rebellion, I believe the planet was Kdikit of Madderly's Star; this is the explanation for the human population of a vursk named planet. But a bigoted human from a society that kicked out all vursk would make a great bad guy in the enemy mine milleu. You wouldn't even have to pair him with a vursk as my understanding is they really dont like any aliens. I'm really stymied as to where I saw that bit on the Free World Rebellion. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 21, 2009 - 3:15pm | I find myself agreeing with will- I just spent 20 minutes searching Zebs remastered and the original AD and I can't find the reference to the Free World Rebellion, I believe the planet was Kdikit of Madderly's Star; this is the explanation for the human population of a vursk named planet. It's in the timeline ZEB's gave, don't have an exact date for you(I think it was in the 200s pf or thereabouts, but I'm not sure). "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
March 21, 2009 - 5:08pm | I find myself agreeing with will- I just spent 20 minutes searching Zebs remastered and the original AD and I can't find the reference to the Free World Rebellion, I believe the planet was Kdikit of Madderly's Star; this is the explanation for the human population of a vursk named planet. It's in the timeline ZEB's gave, don't have an exact date for you(I think it was in the 200s pf or thereabouts, but I'm not sure). DOPE! I read through the timeline 3 times and missed that- but in my defence I really hate reading on the computer and greatly prefer paper. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 March 22, 2009 - 10:51pm | The parallel here is strong, but also rather flawed. After all, SF is designed to be played by a party of PCs. The movie seems to work only on a 1-on-1 basis. Of course, with some thought and adjustments, it could work. An angry Mechanon may be a good angle here. There was another example of this exact scenario in one of the horribly cheesy episodes of "BattleStar Galactica, 1980" or whatever it was called (the terrible series after the first series) where Starbuck actually crashes and shacks up with a Cylon. Made me think of the Mechanons when I saw the episode recently. Another cool option might be to use this situation to introduce a new Race. Perhaps the relationship built by the PCs will be the foundation of a new diplomatic understanding, correcting the initial hostility of some sort of accidental violence in the first Contact? |
March 23, 2009 - 5:49pm | "Galactica 1980." It was the episode titled "The Return of Starbuck," where, through unused footage for flashbacks, it is revealed that Doctor Zee(the series' child supergenius)was Starbuck's love child with a mysterious humanoid woman. Oh, and the Cylon he makes friends with. Starbuck named him Cyrus, I think. Another cool option might be to use this situation to introduce a new Race. Perhaps the relationship built by the PCs will be the foundation of a new diplomatic understanding, correcting the initial hostility of some sort of accidental violence in the first Contact? A nice variation on the theme, and I'm surprised none of us thought of it earlier. Thanks, ImpLord. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
March 24, 2009 - 10:28am | I just noticed on page 60 of the AD book (last page) a Racial Reaction Modifiers table for NPC reaction. The subheading for the table says "Player Character Race" the then table lists the core 4 as well as sathar- implying that sathar could be a PC race  But to the point; since the sathar have reaction modifiers of -20 for humans, -30 for dralasites, -10 for vursk!?!, -20 for yazerians You could interpret that as a possibility that sathar could have a non violent reaction to a PC and even be used in an enemy mine scenario! I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 24, 2009 - 11:32pm | I just noticed on page 60 of the AD book (last page) a Racial Reaction Modifiers table for NPC reaction. The subheading for the table says "Player Character Race" the then table lists the core 4 as well as sathar- implying that sathar could be a PC race But to the point; since the sathar have reaction modifiers of -20 for humans, -30 for dralasites, -10 for vursk!?!, -20 for yazerians You could interpret that as a possibility that sathar could have a non violent reaction to a PC and even be used in an enemy mine scenario! Yes - you have noticed yet another totally bizarre rule of canon SF. Very strange indeed. Your scenario is possible, I guess, but... You would have to be prepared to solve the mystery of the Sathar completely in such a dealie, since the PCs would inevitably ask all sorts of questions to their new wormy friend... |
March 25, 2009 - 12:51am | Yes - you have noticed yet another totally bizarre rule of canon SF. Very strange indeed. Your scenario is possible, I guess, but... You would have to be prepared to solve the mystery of the Sathar completely in such a dealie, since the PCs would inevitably ask all sorts of questions to their new wormy friend... I was just playing devils advocate on that as we had been discussing this topic; I just cant see myself doing this with a Sathar- especially since in numerous places we see them suicide rather than be captured. To me that says inflexible hard line agenda that they on an individual level cant deal with changing situations. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 25, 2009 - 12:17pm | In our Campaign, the Sathar themseles were a "slave" races of yet another force. |
March 25, 2009 - 1:35pm | In our Campaign, the Sathar themseles were a "slave" races of yet another force. Something like that was in the Hymn Before Battle series by John Ringo but it was a good twist on it and you only got hints of it starting in the 2nd novel not till the stand alone book Watch on the Rhine do you unravel the whole story. I'd rather not say what it was as I highly recommend them as good reading and it would be terrible to spoil it. I will tell you this though the books are premised on a galactic civ shows up and says to 1990's earth Hi and by the way we're really getting are buts kicked by a rampaging race and we'll trade tech of soldiers who can fight and oh yeah by the way earth is like only ten years away from being hit by these baddies. For a number of complicated reason the galactics have difficulty doing their own fighting but they have rejuve that puts a human back into an 18 yr old body which lets us call back to service every man living who was ever in uniform. The 4 book series follows some American soldiers but Watch On the Rhine follows events in Germany and even though the Chanselor promises to never call up any of the former nazi SS when he visits Washington to tour the battle site before the Washington monument he litteraly craps himself and realizes they're gonna need everyone even the former SS. Its a cool book especialy as one of the former SS officers relives flash backs as to what he did after WW2 and and how he escaped detection in the French Foreign legion. I liked it a lot though if your Jewish you might not like SS officers playing a hand in saving humanity and yet their are a few Jewish characters handled very well in the novel. I had actualy had an emotional reaction to the i think 3rd book as even though I new it was just a novel I really felt like earth was doomed and the human race would be wiped out. I've never had that happen before from reading a book. Watch on the Rhine is the best in the series for my money though with a great and satisfying ending even though you state to think damn this book is gonna end on down note it give you a nice little epilog that feels good. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 25, 2009 - 7:51pm | Watch on the Rhine by John Ringo I read this too. I thought it was very well done. As for the debate about the SS. I doubt it will ever be resolved. I thought that Ringo handled it with tact. |
March 25, 2009 - 8:34pm | Watch on the Rhine by John Ringo I read this too. I thought it was very well done. As for the debate about the SS. I doubt it will ever be resolved. I thought that Ringo handled it with tact. I agree with you that Ringo handled it well and I really enjoyed the novel but having spent a 6 hours shift at work thinking about the book it occured to me that since you had the 92 year old high ranking SS officer open the book still selling used cars because the German parliment and declared that no former SS should ever recieve a pension and the other main officer with the flash backs being the main two characters I've now decided that Ringos book is really about redemption. as these two officers whether they really realise it are on a quest for redemption and as they find their personal redemption the SS as a whole finds redemption and despite my love for the book as great science fiction I find that an uncomfortable concept- but Hey I'm the guy who brought it up so serves me right. Stepping back; its a good question to explore: who are the most despise people you could find and can they be redeemed, can they be forgiven or should we bare a grudge against them forever. Picking the SS and exploring their history through a sci-fi novel and exploring the idea of redemption for the unredeemable certainly was a great idea but I do find it leaves me very uncomfortable since it is the SS. though I loved all the characters as they were so real. And that great line when the chancelor ask one of the young soldiers (like only 20 yrs old) who was inducted into the new SS battalions if he knew any Nazis and he said, "Yes, one but we put up with him because he is a good tank driver." was just cool withing the context of the story. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 27, 2009 - 10:26pm | Stepping back; its a good question to explore: who are the most despise people you could find and can they be redeemed Since you asked, rapists and pedophiles, especially scum like that bastard in Austria, who made excuses for locking his own kid in a freaking dungeon for 25 years and doing God knows what to her. Can they be redeemed? No. Not in a million years. Not even if they answered for their continuing deaths of their victims with their own blood. can they be forgiven or should we bare a grudge against them forever. Can you forgive Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols for making "war" on 169 civilians, including God only knows how many children? Can you forgive the nineteen men who murdered over 3,000 in NYC on 9/11? Or the politicians and teleevangelists who made book off their suffering(worse scum than the terrorists, IMO)? Can you forgive Fred Phelps and his lunatics for disrespecting dead American soldiers by using their families' grief to protest their homophobic agenda? Can you prove to me there's a hell after death where bastards like this can suffer for all eternity? If you can, then yes, I can send them to Hell. Then I'll forgive them. (Sorry, if I come off a bit strong, jedi, but that's just how I feel. It is a good question, tho....) "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
March 28, 2009 - 5:45am | @will: no I don't think I could forgive any of those that you mentioned either some more then others I do find it interesting that Ringo took a group of people who, for me, were percieved as nothing more that dirty nazi B__tards, probably because of how they have been portrayed in media and movies since I was a kid Yet Ringo had some really compelling characters that put human faces on the SS even the character who was a confirmed dirty nazi b___ was still human (to a degree) despite how detestable he was; so even though I still think of the SS as B__tards its a little complicated now. Nobody likes rapist or pedophiles and we all prefer for them to be locked up, at the very least, or to recieve sterner punishment but would you not look at one individual different if you discovered he had rushed into a burning building to pull someones grandfather out of a wheel chair and carry him to safety suffering 3rd degree burns in the process? As a father and husband I still wouldn't want him living next door and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be coming over for diner but my perception of him would be different. However to get back on topic a bit: I find the theme of redeeming the unredeemable to be, if not compelling at least interesting and I'm wondering how to incorporate that into an adventure. 1. the player plays a character that needs redemption? I'd be very uncomfortable with the PC being guilty of certain crimes. 2. NPC in search of redemption- this would be the most fun for me as a GM and it could help to drive the story. 3. PCs need to redeem an NPC- why is the first question and the statement implies the npc doesn't care or want it so if he throws up roadblock will the PCs persist cause if they dont the adventure is over. 4. NPC wants/needs to redeem the PC- again the PC has to go along with this I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 28, 2009 - 8:41am | @will: no I don't think I could forgive any of those that you mentioned either some more then others I do find it interesting that Ringo took a group of people who, for me, were percieved as nothing more that dirty nazi B__tards, probably because of how they have been portrayed in media and movies since I was a kid Yet Ringo had some really compelling characters that put human faces on the SS even the character who was a confirmed dirty nazi b___ was still human (to a degree) despite how detestable he was; so even though I still think of the SS as B__tards its a little complicated now. I guess it might, might be different if the miserable SOBs in question showed true remorse for what they'd done, as the SS in Ringo's book did. But, they have to be willing to live with what they'd done, what they continue to those who survive, knowing they could never make things right, never atone, only fight against they fought for, until they answer in blood for their actions, dying as they lived, pariahs despised by everyone. Hell may truly be other people. Nobody likes rapist or pedophiles and we all prefer for them to be locked up, at the very least, or to recieve sterner punishment but would you not look at one individual different if you discovered he had rushed into a burning building to pull someones grandfather out of a wheel chair and carry him to safety suffering 3rd degree burns in the process? As a father and husband I still wouldn't want him living next door and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be coming over for diner but my perception of him would be different. The answer is, unfortunately, no. If there is a Hell, I may yet burn for being so rigidly unforgiving, but that's fine. There are some things which cannot be forgiven, some acts of selfishness which even a lifetime of selflessness can never come close to erasing...if he risked his neck saving someone from a fire and suffered third degree burns in the process, maybe that's the Universe's way of paying him back, the wheel turning so that he gets some small measure of the pain he's caused. Maybe he knows that's what must be. I don't know. One thing I do know: The evil men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones Four hundred years after the fact, that line remains true. However to get back on topic a bit: I find the theme of redeeming the unredeemable to be, if not compelling at least interesting and I'm wondering how to incorporate that into an adventure. 1. the player plays a character that needs redemption? I'd be very uncomfortable with the PC being guilty of certain crimes. 2. NPC in search of redemption- this would be the most fun for me as a GM and it could help to drive the story. 3. PCs need to redeem an NPC- why is the first question and the statement implies the npc doesn't care or want it so if he throws up roadblock will the PCs persist cause if they dont the adventure is over. 4. NPC wants/needs to redeem the PC- again the PC has to go along with this In the continuing story "Last of the Breed," I introduced the character of Chek Groznal, who, twenty years ago, betrayed the Federation to the forces of the New Frontier and served as its most fanatical soldier, until one day, he couldn't anymore. Returning to Free Alliance space, he found himself sentenced to the ancient Yazirian punishment of sankvarot, the "blood answer," where he is to answer for his treachery on the battlefield. In the process, he is despised even by those who serve under him, no matter how many battles he wins for the cause of light. He also knows there could never be any other way. Similar is the character of Londo Mollari from B5. For what he thinks are good ends, he knowingly does evil, and, after he realizes what he's almost lost, he starts trying to fix what he screwed up...finding out the hard way, the evil he did does live after him, and the only way he could save his people from it is to let himself be claimed by it, setting the stage for G'kar and he killing one another at their end of their journey. Peace. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
March 31, 2009 - 7:04am | @ Will: Hey Will you should write up your Blood Answer in STar Law: Crime and punishment project, I think that is a pretty cool idea, does it include a "scarlet letter" or a "mark of cain"(classic biblical sense) so that every yaz seeing him recognizes him for what he is? I'm a great admirer of the yaz clan article from SFman and in it each clan has a symbol that the individuals of that clan usually wear around their neck. I'd love to see the blood answer incorporate a stripping of the original clan symbol and a requiring of wearing the "blood answer" upon pain of death. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
