 March 11, 2009 - 7:44pm | Before I begin my question I have already come up with some answers, but I am interested in what other people think. My question is, How do assault carriers recover their fighters? I have discussed this at length with my wife who has a degree in nuclear engineering and is my science go-to girl and we have tossed around a few ideas. The main one is that if one is to stay true to the canon Knight Hawks rules, the recovery of fighters is a difficult concept, especially with the way ships are designed in regards to providing gravity. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this because it is science FICTION, but I am greatly interested in what others think. Take care C.J. |
 March 11, 2009 - 9:15pm | I would think that the fighters would just have to match speed with the carrier, and they would enter the carrier bay in the movement phase, take one turn to rearm, and then relaunch, at the carrier's speed. However, there is also the interpretation that the carrier would have to go to speed zero to recover fighters. That does not make much sense to me. Of course, for a space station rearm, speed zero is necessary. But for a carrier, I would think that the fighter could relaunch in any direction and at any speed within the 5 ADF of the carrier speed (up or down, that is). This interpretation is a little bit liberal, but it affects both sides in SW2, so it has the potential to help the UPF and Sathar. It is slightly pro-Sathar, though, simply because of their reliance on the Assault Carriers. However, I can assure you that most Sathar fighters don't make it back to their carriers. Neither do most UPF fighters, I have found. In a big battle, they die quickly, or their MR is completely wiped out, and they fly away in a straight line... The fighter that even is able to make his third Assault Rocket run and return to his carrier in a major fleet action is both very brave and very lucky. The UPF should give a medal simply for launching three Assault Rockets and surviving!!! Not that there is a problem. In the big battles, fighters die. |
March 11, 2009 - 9:25pm | Appreciate the reply. Food for thought. Thanks. |
 March 12, 2009 - 1:31am | Yep, match speed. The carrier can not be involved in acceleration or maneuvers during recovery though...I say it has to be coasting along at ADF:0/MR:0 and no more than ADF:1/MR:0 during the rearming phase (as anything more will just toss everyone inside into the bulkheads, making rearming impossible as the assault rockets bounce around with them!). And ditto on the launch or relaunch, the fighters can start with the same start speed as the carrier (which again must be coasting for such activity) and accelerate to their heart's desire once free and clear. |
 March 12, 2009 - 6:01am | Shuttle and fighter recovery: Star Trek had clam shell doors Star Wars had magnetic shielding that kept atmosphere in the landing bay/deck Old Battle Star Galactica: some sort of shielding and fighters flew in also a cylon flew in once (kamikazi style) and started a hellacious fire In the Honor Harrington series by David Weber ships have a boat bay gallery with air lock and shuttles fly in and remain in vacuum while a docking tube connects to the small craft. Since artificial grav exists people must swim through the tube and painted line and hand bar warnes them when they're about to enter the artificial gravity of the ship. When the new LAC (light attack craft) designs came out making carriers and fighters a viable weapon system the LACs had individual bays they flew into with a hatch that shut allowing for the bay to be pressurized greatly speeding matenance and re-arming. all small craft is held in place by docking buffers. The first time the new LACs were used was on a Q-ship and then they just built a docking bay with in a cargo hold but it wasn't pressurized and had the basic gallery with airlock and matenance was done in pressure suits. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 March 12, 2009 - 7:28am | An area on the assault carriers (AC) hull is flat with painted strips and lights which looks much like a modern day airstrip. Several areas of the surface are slightly depressed. The depressions are re-arming beds that use mag-locks to hold assault rockets in place. All personal are in spacesuits with magshoes and rocket packs. Each spacesuit is equipped with a voice input that is used to control the rocket pack. "Ninety degree turn, mark." "Full forward stop." The platform (depressed area) is lowered into the ship where personnel reload the ammo beds. Once loaded the platform is raised just below the surface waiting to re-arm a fighter. A fighter matches speed with the AC and moves into position above a re-arming bed extending its grabbers. Once they are over the platform its lifted so the fighter grabbers can lock onto the assault rockets. I saw this on the TV. A show called , "How Things Work". It was a UPF AC, they didn't have access to a Sathar AC as you can imagine. |
March 12, 2009 - 8:04am | I would think that they would rack the assault rockets and the reloaders would pull the empty rack and attach a pre-loaded rack for speed of reloading in combat. Pluss a lot of automation would go into the process- robotic arms and robots under live supervision. It's not really neccessary but I also like the image of the launch tubes on the Old BSG. I believe the laser pod is a straight 1 for 1 exchange with the assault rocket- wouldn't it make more sense for a fighter armed with say 2 laser pods and 1 assault rocket? Sure the laser pod is Forward fire only but come on with a fighter's ADF and MR if you cant shoot that weapon every turn you deserve to be blown out of space. With laser pods you wouldn't need to rearm and fighters would have the option to function in a longer range sniping mode. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 12, 2009 - 8:26am | There is a 20% you will shoot down your own AR when firing both the AR and pods in the same game turn.  |
March 12, 2009 - 8:43am | There is a 20% you will shoot down your own AR when firing both the AR and pods in the same game turn. Sure but I only left in 1 AR to give the fighter a close in big punch- but if you think about it laser pod armed fighters always beat AR armed fighters. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 12, 2009 - 8:52am | I was just saying...  fighter against fighter or fighter against capital ship? I would like to see some KH rules that allow a fighter to come-in-close to a large ship and strafe it with a laser pod. The larger ship couldn't bring it's main guns to bear and would need some kind of point-defense-system, wether that is its own fighters or laser-pods mounted all over the ship. |
March 12, 2009 - 9:21am | I was just saying... fighter against fighter or fighter against capital ship? I would like to see some KH rules that allow a fighter to come-in-close to a large ship and strafe it with a laser pod. The larger ship couldn't bring it's main guns to bear and would need some kind of point-defense-system, wether that is its own fighters or laser-pods mounted all over the ship. If you'd like to read that in novel form I recommend "Echos of Honor" by David Weber but its deep into the series. though you could download a free copy of the 1st in the series at Baen.com I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 12, 2009 - 3:42pm | I believe the laser pod is a straight 1 for 1 exchange with the assault rocket- wouldn't it make more sense for a fighter armed with say 2 laser pods and 1 assault rocket? Going by actual volume, a pod laser chews up 20 cubic meters of space. An assault rocket launcher and three rockets chews up 40 cubic meters (10 for the launcher and 10 for each rocket). It's why I have the F-40C as a convertible fighter, it can have the original three rockets or a single pod laser system and one rocket. Or you could go so far as to install two pod laser systems and no rockets...firing off a pair of 1d10 shots indefintely, causing almost as much damage (assuming both hit) as a rocket (but no damage table modifiers). |
March 12, 2009 - 3:55pm | I would like to see some KH rules that allow a fighter to come-in-close to a large ship and strafe it with a laser pod. The larger ship couldn't bring it's main guns to bear and would need some kind of point-defense-system, wether that is its own fighters or laser-pods mounted all over the ship. Join in on the action over at TerlObar's forum, the Wing Commander game is starting where you can do all that and more. The Star Fighter Corps will teach your new pilot how to do that sort of thing and come back home for drinks and a hot meal. The trick with strafing a capital ship is to get in close, but not too close (stay out of the RB range), launch your birds (or fire lasers) and then utilize your entire MR in evasive maneuvers on the way out in case the ship is able to acuire you in their movement phase. Or you can join the Star Fighter Brigade in Dominion and see how the Sovereign Domain Authority does it...they'll teach you the art of "rat packing" where the entire squadron swarms in from all directions and blasts away. P.S. back on the topic, that's a similar description that I use for recovery on my carriers: each fighter has a bay (or on larger carriers two fighters per bay or one heavy fighter...the UPF Vincent has six double bays for any combination of HS:1 and HS:2 fighters...SDA carriers all have double bays as you can fit 1.5 S-series fgihters per standard HS:1 fighter, so that comes out to 3 per bay) with an elevator platform that lifts it up past a set of bay doors to the hull surface. Rearming can be done in the "up" position, but repair work is generally performed in the "down" position where the craft can be repositioned for artificial gravity and atmospheric pressurization can be enabled. |
March 14, 2009 - 12:56pm | You guys are funny, talking about fighter tactics. Trust me, in the big battles they drop like flies. Ask Woot. Speaking of which, Larry, we have not played in six months or something! When are we going to finish the SW2 mega battle of Cassidine? |
 March 14, 2009 - 8:40pm | Like Imperial Lord I've never seen a flight of fighters return from an engagement in a massive battle. I've been starting to wonder if it wouldn't simply be better to replace them with drones instead. That way they're smaller so you can carry more, and they're even disposable so you can use them like a guided missile as well. This sounds like something the Sathar would think of doing. Of course as drones their dog fight abilites would be weaker, but if you have larger groups of them that might over come that short coming. Or even better for the Sathar, hard wire a Sathar's brain up in a drone like a cyborg. Oh now that's a scary idea, knowing the UPF would never resort to such an extreme measure. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
March 15, 2009 - 4:38am | I've been starting to wonder if it wouldn't simply be better to replace them with drones instead Re: Day of the Juggernaut...the scorpion fighters in that mini game were robotic. Or even better for the Sathar, hard wire a Sathar's brain up in a drone like a cyborg. Oh now that's a scary idea, knowing the UPF would never resort to such an extreme measure. That's essentially what I did with the "Cythar"...they're sathar organics recycled from their fallen and wet-wired into a cybernetic body. As for UPF tactics...well, train the pilots (level:2 Gollwin graduates), upgrade your basic fighter to a 2-person cockpit (with a stress analysis linked auto-eject feature), and add a gunner to assist with the weapons (level 1 in both fileds or level 2 in one field) --- now your assault rockets have up to an 80% chance to hit assuming a direct "head on" shot. A six pack of those from 40,000km out will hulk a light cruiser (assuming average damage), possibly even a battleship if you can get lucky with the damage table modifiers. That leaves the target ship with only its energy batteries to return fire with a -20% range diffusion modifier, as the rocket battery is out of range. |
March 16, 2009 - 12:21am | [/quote] As for UPF tactics...well, train the pilots (level:2 Gollwin graduates), upgrade your basic fighter to a 2-person cockpit (with a stress analysis linked auto-eject feature), and add a gunner to assist with the weapons (level 1 in both fileds or level 2 in one field) --- now your assault rockets have up to an 80% chance to hit assuming a direct "head on" shot. A six pack of those from 40,000km out will hulk a light cruiser (assuming average damage), possibly even a battleship if you can get lucky with the damage table modifiers. That leaves the target ship with only its energy batteries to return fire with a -20% range diffusion modifier, as the rocket battery is out of range.[/quote] That's why I would always go with the hard hitting Assault Rockets and never ever bother with the Laser Pods. If you get lucky on the Damage Table, 1 AR can do up to 50 points of damage. Woot hit one of my Light Crusiers in the last battle with ONE AR and did 30 points of damage to its hull. Ouch. Anyone who flies fighters into the range of enemy Rocket Batteries, under any circumstances (except maybe to take shots for other ships in the stack), should not be playing Knight Hawks. Funny thing is how their drives and MR get hit too. I have seen several fighters now just streaking off in straight lines... Or their AR gets hit and they just fly around uselessly, trying to live long enough to roll damage control in a couple of turns... Or they light on fire, and blow up from hull damage. Does not mean they are useless, of course. The natural reaction under massed fight attack actually is to somewhat panic, and fire two dozen beam batteries at range 5 on def fire to put a dent in them. Then grit your teeth and line up some ICMs. But not too many, if your enemy is on a torp run as well... |
March 16, 2009 - 6:45am | That's why I would always go with the hard hitting Assault Rockets and never ever bother with the Laser Pods. Well the pod laser definitely has its place, primarily in an "anti-fighter" fighter role, such as a militia might have. I permit two assault rockets to be swapped out for a PL system (along with retaining the remaining rocket) since the PL is a 20 cubic meter unit, same as a pair of rockets (10 c.m. each). Why waste a perfectly good rocket against another fighter, when it could benefit the destruction of an intruding capital ship instead? The "anti-fighter" fighter wipes out the intruding fighter craft, thus protecting their own allied/friendly capital ships by forcing the enemy fighter to waste its own rockets defensively on a fighter rather than offensively against a bigger ship. And the kicker is once those enemy fighters have been dispatched, the A-F fighters still have that "parting gift" for the intruding big boats. Add to that when the intruding fighter gets off a rocket attack, the "anti-fighter" fighter pilot can use evasion skills...a subskill the enemy fighter can not employ against the pod laser (remember, it only applies against rocket weapons). Once the enemy fighter wastes its final rocket on a fighter that is actively attacking it (should the skirmish progress that far) that fighter become useless, while the "anti-fighter" fighter pilot may just ignore it and take on something else with functioning guns (unless the depleted fighter is a sathar fighter, in which case you'd want to finish it off before it rams a friendly craft). Finally, the PL fighter may engage in defensive fire, something the AR fighter may not do as the AR is an MPO weapon. So in the end the PL fighter is firing twice per turn and able to evade if needed, and will never run out of ammo. In my Wing Commander game, I upgraded the standard UPF fighter (the F-40 Vulcan) with a convertible system: 3 assault rockets or one rocket and a pod laser system (thus the F-40C designation). That way the fighter can be outfitted for the various roles as needed: system defense (PL + AR) or full-on offensive (ARx3). And one more thought: considering the total space of an assault rocket launcher and three rockets (40 cubic meters total) --- you could feasibly swap out the entire enchilada for a PAIR of pod laser systems, giving the fighter TWO shots per turn which together can cause near-AR damage (d10 each, assuming both hit), albeit without the damage table modifiers. Yet another option... If you get lucky on the Damage Table, 1 AR can do up to 50 points of damage. Woot hit one of my Light Crusiers in the last battle with ONE AR and did 30 points of damage to its hull. Ouch. Yep, hence the possibility of hulking a battleship, assuming a few lucky rolls on the Damage Table combined with the damage dice. Figure average damage of an AR to be 15 points { (5.5 x 2) +4 }, so a squadron of six fighters getting off a rocket each with 80% chance to hit has a very good chance of ending the careers of everyone aboard a light cruiser. |
March 17, 2009 - 2:10pm | So if you're going to have a laser pod on a fighter limit it to only one. You'll get more bang for your buck with AR. But really how often are your fighters going to engage in dogfights with enemy fighters? Seems you think most players use rocket batterys as anti-fighter weapons. I've always prefered to use the laser batteries for this job, as you'll have more of them with a very good range. The LB damage is more suited for anti-fighter work. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
March 17, 2009 - 10:36pm | But really how often are your fighters going to engage in dogfights with enemy fighters? Heh, heh...I have an entire game based on that concept. Played right, the fighter squadron can be the biggest threat on the board, but most folks treat them as front line pawns. What better defense is there than some PL armed fighters against an invading squadron of enemy AR armed fighters? Would you rather commit your limited supply of assault rockets from your own AR armed fighter group, rockets better suited for wiping out a bigger ship? Or would you commit assault scouts to such a dogfight, trying to pick them off with their laser batteries? Again, you waste another group of vessels that would be better utilized against invading capital ships. Nay, ultimately I'd want my 12 fighter carrier to have a six unit squadron of each: one with rockets for offense and one with pod lasers for defense. Or if it's a smaller carrier, go with a single six unit squadron with one of each to perform both roles. Seems you think most players use rocket batterys as anti-fighter weapons. Not at all. But consider six fighters coming in from behind with head on shots...the defender is going to want to fire anything and everything at their disposal, and if the RB is in range they will do so with hopes of reducing that inbound group as much as possible. So why give that defending ship the opportunity? Since the AR is effective from 4 hexes out and without range modifiers, that's the best range to deploy them: out of range for the RB and at -20 for the energy guns...their defensive fire is with a penalty and one less weapon system (with said system being the only one that DOESN'T have a range modifier penalty). |
March 18, 2009 - 2:42pm | Yes, but even the ships are moving in a formation. When a ship formation sees a squadron of fighters approaching the first reaction will be to open up with LB on both the offensive and defensive fire from all ships. Like I said we used LB as anti-fighter weapons more often as the heavier weapons are more suited to be used on other ships. Odds are fighters are going after cruisers and bigger, which will always be escorted by a few frigates or destroyers. More than likely frigates. I've had frigates specially made for that escort duty, the only change was the removal of it's LC and have a 2nd LB onboard. It's primary purpose is escort not attack, so it's lack of a LC is not seen as a problem as it still has torpedos should a larger ship get close to it's charge. Customizing ships for their dutues, attackers should be equiped for attacking. Defensive systems will be secondary. But that's just the way we played. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
 March 18, 2009 - 3:08pm | I've always used ICMs for fighters and missiles myself; 70% to hit fighters, DMG:8 HP. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
March 18, 2009 - 8:21pm | 70% to hit is probably a little generous...considering that the system is an automated one used against inbound projectiles and that it merely modifies the projectile's chance to hit. As it is a defensive system, naturally it could only be used as such during the defensive phase. Put into perspective, a HS:1 fighter is 31 cubic meters, a torpedo is 20 cubic meters or roughly 2/3 the size of a fighter. An ICM versus torpedo is a -10 chance for the torpedo to hit, and doesn't take into account of the torpedo gunner's bonus. Add to that, the fighter pilot will be able to utilize the evasions kill against an inbound projectile weapon. An 8HP of damage is pretty much a purpose driven death sentence for something intended as a defensive item...d10 or d10+2 would be more realistic. On the other hand, an actual offensive weapon system utilizing missiles would work. I have "Striker Missiles" in my Wing Commander game, 5cubic meter launchers that can accomodate up to a trio of 5 cubic meter missiles that cause d10+2HP damage with a -10 DTM, essentially it's half of an assault rocket by the canon rules, albeit with two launchers you can fire two missiles per turn. Swapping out RB salvos with pairs of missiles on a captial ship will give you the same effect, permitting the launch of two missiles per turn as the RB is presumed to include the launchers during the conversion. |
March 19, 2009 - 4:37pm | Hmmm...good ideas, Shadow, I'll have to play around with that a bit. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
March 20, 2009 - 8:05am | Um Will, ICMs cannot be fired at fighters... The laser pod is not useful. Most fighters die before firing all three of their ARs anyway - if in a large engagement. And by the way, destroying enemy fighters with Assault Rockets is NOT a waste! A hull hit on a fighter with an Assault Rocket is almost automatic death. Only a 1,1 on the damage roll will save the hapless target. Whereas with a laser pod hit, you only have a 20% chance of destroying the enemy fighter. And in a big fight, you won't have a chance to shoot at that fighter again. |
March 20, 2009 - 4:03pm | The laser pod is not useful. Most fighters die before firing all three of their ARs anyway - if in a large engagement. And by the way, destroying enemy fighters with Assault Rockets is NOT a waste! A hull hit on a fighter with an Assault Rocket is almost automatic death. Only a 1,1 on the damage roll will save the hapless target. Whereas with a laser pod hit, you only have a 20% chance of destroying the enemy fighter. And in a big fight, you won't have a chance to shoot at that fighter again. You're missing the point of the pod laser. It can be fired defensively, the AR can not. The opposing pilot can try to evade the rocket, he can not do so against a beam weapon. Sure, the rocket will kill a fighter, if it hits. If it misses, then you have to fire the second and third rocket, leaving your pilot with nothing to tackle the big boats with later. Meanwhile, the PL fighter has gotten off six laser shots in that time (1 offensive plus 1 defensive per turn), and may continue firing should both pilots consistently miss for three turns. Also don't forget a fighter's best weapon: speed. As such, the fighter pilot can dictate where his battle takes place. |
March 21, 2009 - 9:18am | Can fighters evade Assault Rockets? I thought they could only evade torpedoes... Also, in the big battles, the fighters are not dictating anything. They are part of the larger fleet plan, an important part, but just a part nonetheless. |
March 21, 2009 - 3:09pm | Yeah, but what I think Shadow means is that he can choose who and where to engage, because he has the speed to close with or break off from whatever might come his way. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
March 21, 2009 - 3:14pm | Well assault rockets don't travel as fast as laser or other energy weapons do, seeing as every game turn is a 10 minute span of time I would think a fighter pilot can see the rockets coming in on his screens. So in theory he could evade them. We could break down the ships weapons into two catagories of weapons with travel time and weapons that are instant hits. Although at really far distances even lasers will have a travel time when you get to the technicalities of it. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
March 21, 2009 - 3:17pm | And range diffusion, don't forget the range diffusion. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 March 21, 2009 - 9:21pm | On the scale of the KH map, the speed of light is 30 hexes per second. In a 10 minute turn, laser fire is effectively instantaneous. And Imperial Lord is correct. Technically, according to the canon rules fighters and Assault Scouts can only evade torpedos. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
