 January 17, 2009 - 6:58am | Here's the thing, from what I've seen, Zebulon's guide gets trashed and bashed quite often in forums and yahoo groups dedicated to this game. If there are defenders of Zebs they dont seem to speak up much, from what I've seen. I'm glad Zebs came out personally and no I'm not trying to champion it. but for the most part the majority of zebs is the new skills and equipment and that was great stuff. The resolution system which everyone hates, was just a "bright idea" that some one at TSR came up with and was also instituted in a Gamma World edition then dropped. Honestly I think that what they were trying to do with that: having a great roll to hit mean high damage was admirable just flawed in its implimentation (Remember it came out at that time in TSR history when Lorraine Williams was in control and had forebad play testing because she wasn't paying people to play games). I never used it. The extra stuff on mega corps and cadres in Zebs was just setting fluff- pretty much take it or leave as per individual tastes- I liked it as it was one less thing I had to develope. The time line; well I've never been happy with that but from the number of other fan timelines I've seen on the net I guess most people had the same reaction. The new races- yuck I only liked the humma at the time dwarves in space (ifshnits) just didn't grab me though after 20 years and warhammer 40k and all the cool dwarves with space kit miniatures out there I'm much more amenable to them (maybe with a better background) if for no other reason than to use some of the really nice space dwarves made by hasselfreeminiatures. as for the race with 4 legs and 2 arms that just didn't make sense to me and that one I could just leave, in fact I cant even remember the name. Yeah it was half finished revision and suffered from no play testing (Like all other TSR products of the time). but I was certainly glad to have it. most of it was usable even if it lacked space ship skills and all references to the new resolution system were easy to translate to the old system. The things I didn't like in it I just didn't use but enough of it was usable that I found it indespensible. Maybe you all see it differently? Jedion I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 18, 2011 - 6:58am | With an immense amount of respect to you all, Zeb's guide is Alpha Dawns ugly sister. Same family, but (shudders) you wouldn't want to date her.   No I wouldn't want to sleep with Zebs but I would sit and chat with her. Thus my work in the Zebs guide expanded project. IMO the resolution system, the skill and character development system can be ignored, and some of the equipment list can be pruned back. the multiplicity of scanners and bodycomp systems could do with a simplification as well as the plug and play rocket/missle component system that is way to complicated to figure out. Otherwise I'd happlily use the races, some of the equipment, the mega corps, the cadres and cults and even the timeline (with the caveat that the timeline is flawed and is only used for reference). I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 May 18, 2011 - 4:47pm | Put that way, it actually sounds like a decently considered proposal... considering Zeb's flawed and a little less than homely, reasonably respectful, I can live with that descriptor. Clarifying and condensing some of the reduncies, pruning back some equipment, and toning down the little bit of the Ultra-Tech creep that started to take hold, setting the chaff aside for a separate project. Keeping the mega-corp, races, cadres and cults, timeline, and other various bits (including the rules options, though I don't use them I know others that do use them, and use them well enough to keep them in there), with perhaps some clean up and clarification. Basically, put her in the hands of a team of beauticians, and give her a weekend trip to the spa to sort her thoughts, a nice cosmetic and style make-over, and sure, then she might be ready for a night out on the town. (still might not sleep with her, but at least she wouldn't be too embarrassing for dinner and movie.) She still retains her character and personal charm, that being more subjective than appearance most of the time, I realize. [nothing quite like beating an analogy into dirt, but that one works.  ]Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 May 18, 2011 - 6:43pm | Basically, put her in the hands of a team of beauticians, and give her a weekend trip to the spa to sort her thoughts, a nice cosmetic and style make-over, and sure, then she might be ready for a night out on the town. (still might not sleep with her, but at least she wouldn't be too embarrassing for dinner and movie.) She still retains her character and personal charm, that being more subjective than appearance most of the time, I realize. [nothing quite like beating an analogy into dirt, but that one works. ]Seriously, really, there are somethings even a spa day don't cure. If "someone", like Zebs, is ugly in the core than all the paint, make-up, perfume, and elloquence lessons will not fix. Extreme make overs only work on TV and rpg games. |
 May 18, 2011 - 8:32pm | It was truly hopeless. When I tried taking "Zebbie" out on a date, I was thinking of her sister "Alphie Dawn" the entire time. I asked Zebbie to go out with me to the local space themed adventure park. She seemed dressed nice, and I initially thought that the date might not turn out so bad afterall. But then Zebbie started to talk. Yackity yackity yackity! Oh gawd, she liked to talk! She gave me a whole list of things that she didn't like about her older sister Alphie Dawn; most of which were the precise reasons I found Alphie Dawn so attractive in the first place. Then I began noticing her caked-on makeup, some goofy Mechanon pendant she wore around her neck, her little Ifschnit earrings, her unplucked Humma eyebrows, and her crazy Osakar leggings. I'll admitt that she was surprisingly well informed on topics such as corporations, astronomy, and a few other things, but by the end of the date, I dropped her off at her house and burned rubber in a hurry to get out of there. (sighs)  My SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
May 18, 2011 - 8:34pm | well, for me it is a love affair with Star Frontiers, so I can keep the kids around and treat 'em well... no favoritism, they can all be sent to college, trade school, and supported equally. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
May 18, 2011 - 9:02pm |  My SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
 May 19, 2011 - 10:32am | It was truly hopeless. When I tried taking "Zebbie" out on a date, I was thinking of her sister "Alphie Dawn" the entire time. I asked Zebbie to go out with me to the local space themed adventure park. She seemed dressed nice, and I initially thought that the date might not turn out so bad afterall. But then Zebbie started to talk. Yackity yackity yackity! Oh gawd, she liked to talk! She gave me a whole list of things that she didn't like about her older sister Alphie Dawn; most of which were the precise reasons I found Alphie Dawn so attractive in the first place. Then I began noticing her caked-on makeup, some goofy Mechanon pendant she wore around her neck, her little Ifschnit earrings, her unplucked Humma eyebrows, and her crazy Osakar leggings. I'll admitt that she was surprisingly well informed on topics such as corporations, astronomy, and a few other things, but by the end of the date, I dropped her off at her house and burned rubber in a hurry to get out of there. (sighs) Oh my dralasite puddings!!!! This is great.  We gotta publish this... what say ye? |
May 19, 2011 - 7:33pm | Glad that you enjoyed the post wOOt. Like the ol' saying goes, "enter my mind and risk losing yours!" It's an honor for me to contribute whatever I can to SFM. Thanks. My SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
 May 19, 2011 - 7:55pm | Well everyone seems to have missed an obvious linkage. The Zeb's guide was not a real innovation it was simply an attempt to turn a unique game (Star Frontiers) into the most popular sci-fi game of all time. If you don't know that game is Traveller. Extended skills, never ending war history, optional mental skills, a new empire which may or may not have been friendly (Solomani). It goes on but we can only wonder what the other two volumes would bring; tech levels, a nobility system maybe the home worlds. Personally I get along just fine without Zeb's and stick with the original material. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
May 19, 2011 - 9:32pm | Honestly, I would've enjoyed checking out Zeb's 2 & 3. Strange that they would pull the plug on the project before completion unless they were getting a lot of negative feedback from Zeb's I. Odd.  My SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
May 20, 2011 - 11:26pm |  Sounds like a short check-list of things every campaign-setting either needs, or will evolve for itself over time.Gave a long thought on that, and I can't think of any published setting, that doesn't compare those elements, to some part of it own setting... in any genre. An Extended List of Skills (really it is difficult to ever 'have enough' for an open campaign setting), Never-ending Plot-Arc (war is easy and brings an 'obvious enemy', and can usually be circumvented by those that aren't following the arch on the front lines.), Obvious Antagonist Groups (either these comes from or they create an 'eternal war' feel, until the Plot-Arc's End-Game finally changes the setting, like World of Darkness, and requires a completely new rewrite, and eventually the inclusion of another Meta-Plot.), A Mysterious Empire(from High Elves, Frall, or Elomi, to The Q to or the Shadow & Vorlon, every setting has at least one...), Optional Esoterica Skills(...because it isn't just about wizards and medieval-medics, sometimes it's about the ancient secret societies of rational thinkers years ahead of the average scientists, and the reality consensus adherents of religious philosophy, that will manifest in an evolving culture in some form. No mater how much the objectivist-cults might unwittingly disagree with their own rational necessity, they are as inevitable to sapience as any other philosophy-cult, and lines are drawn in philosophical opposition to any given rise of conceptual thought, simply for comparison if nothing else, and such consensus is one of the foundations of a culture. Put more simply there is a 'science' behind such 'fiction', and it deserves availability to those who want to use it in their games... even if it's just to toss around uber-kewl pyrotechnics, or bathe the unclean in the healing blue-white light of righteous redemption...not all sci-fi, or every group of gamers, ignores such heavy social elements as religiosity faith and the edge-unknowable science.)Though it is quite-likely that the success of Traveler had some influence, and I agree to some extent that it influenced Star Frontiers, definitely the success of several new 'enhanced skill sytems' in games published around that time, was the cause of such expansion in Star Frontiers. All these campaign elements are just to trope-ish to ascribe any 'one' influence, too easily included into any setting. I rather think Zeb's was the 'test-bed' of many includable suggestions that had arisen in both the games play-tested by the group, and from fans asking for clarifications and additions that suit their own needs. In addition to something that needed to be sent out quickly, and was shipped in a poorly managed state, I think it was intended to be seeded sparingly in a campaign, and used as a stop-gap that later works might delve more deeply into, should that have become a possibility. It would be nice to know what might have come next, but I can't find enough information to draw such speculation on conclusively. I imagine that further clarifications of various elements, ignored in previous books, would have been published in later supplements. And likely a few more gadgets, races, and creatures to include in the crowded unfinished map (unless they finally got around to expanding that too). With any luck a more detailed Traveler/Gurps/Star Frontiers-Unique detailed planetary exploration map and survey rules system, for all those planetologists, xenoecologists, and first-contact specialists that the AD box gave some focus too, would have something to enhance their role, and a more detailed small-craft combat and astro-navigation detail, for fighters-to-privateers in scale. Of course some detailed break-down of UPF military, Planetary militia, and possibly some Corp-books would have been nice too, and an atlas of the 20+ UPF Colonized worlds, with city and region; maps, descriptions, and overviews... yeah, I could go on and on about what I would like Santa Zeb's to bring me next chrismachkaniquaniqule. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
May 21, 2011 - 10:03am | [yeah, I could go on and on about what I would like Santa Zeb's to bring me next chrismachkaniquaniqule.] Touche TSC. My SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
May 22, 2011 - 5:40am | Honestly, I would've enjoyed checking out Zeb's 2 & 3. Strange that they would pull the plug on the project before completion unless they were getting a lot of negative feedback from Zeb's I. Odd. In reality the answer is that Gygax lost all control of TSR when he brought in Lorraine Williams, for her financial expertise, to help straighten out the mess the Bloom Brothers were making of TSR (Gygax and each Bloom owned 1/3 of TSR). The Blooms (spelling?) were hiring family members to do nothing and giving them company paid for limos etc. Lorraine cut a deal with them and bought them out gaining 2/3s of the company. Gygax realizing that he'd been back stabbed sold the rest to her in disgust and went to GDW with some new ideas that he had. Lorraine Williams, who's family owned the Buck Rogers IP declared that the company would now go with that instead of STar Frontiers. She organized it so that she got paid for each BR product that was printed, NOT for what actually sold! Thus TSR churned out tons of BR product that never sold and eventually went to land fills. To be fair she was a business wiz and made TSR on the strength of the novels that were published but she also gutted the company and it was in trouble when WOTC was looking to expand. Its rumored that she sold out to them and even managed to hide some of TSR's liabilities; basically she screwed WOTC in the deal. This has been a internet rumor and WOTC refused to comment but it seems that there may have been something to it and for myself I prefer to believe that their was something to it because I've decided I really dont like this woman. Eventally WOTC sold out to Hasbro and that of course is owned by Oprah. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 22, 2011 - 9:35am | So it was a TSR rock, paper, scissors thing eh? Greed beat Creativity, Sloth beat Adventure, Fartface beat Funface.  So where is Gygax these days and how do we use the force on him to come join our forum? My SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
May 22, 2011 - 9:55am |  Didn't some foppish 'down-on-his-luck' playboy, rake Oprah back in the 90's during, or was it just before, the WotC take-over, maybe it's that guy's fault...  Gygax? Why not the original creative (and largely unnamed) 'Design Team', many that, as I hear it, were not even aware they were working on a TSR product, until it came out. ("Ma'am, the free-labor is revolting...", "...well, pick friends that shower!") I think it is interesting, that there are only three names on the AD product, and one is an ambiguous amorphously undesignated team, and the other two are titled with generic no-creative-interest managerial positions. It's like the entire project is liability free, because no one really knows who is at fault anyway, so noone can be blamed for any mistakes but; The Editor, The Artist, and The current CEO, and they were not actually involved in the creative process. Play a round of the corporate-shell-game, anyone? Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
May 22, 2011 - 3:50pm | So it was a TSR rock, paper, scissors thing eh? Greed beat Creativity, Sloth beat Adventure, Fartface beat Funface. So where is Gygax these days and how do we use the force on him to come join our forum? Gygax has transitioned over to the same place in the force where Obi-wan went after his duel with Vader in Star Wars. He passed in 2008 and I remember my DM calling for a moment of silence before we started the game that week. RE: Design Team- Not sure I'd want to recruit anyone to come on board. People who post here and submitt to the fan zine do so out of a love for the game. If you love the game or are even mildly affectionate toward it then you'll find this site and the Star Frontiersman. Recruiting in "hired guns" is problematic for many reasons, IMO. Post Script: I just checked his bio in wikipedia and it doesn't look like Gygax actually worked on Star Frontiers directly I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 22, 2011 - 5:28pm | Wow. Sad news about Gygax. And you're right about inviting those who do not find us of their own accord. If they don't already have an interest in the game, then they'd only stop by to troll. My SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
May 22, 2011 - 5:58pm | Did you say Oprah has interest / owns Hasbro..... that explains everything. Anyway, there's no way around it, Zebs just sucks so bad |
May 22, 2011 - 7:36pm | Just wanted to chime in and say it's been an impressive run for this site and the Star Frontiersman to continue where AD/KH/Zeb's left off. Lots of talent in our pool. If I could shed tears I would. So let me instead dump a bucket of water over my positronic brain casing. :-) |
May 22, 2011 - 9:23pm | (Capt'n Rags splashes water on the MechanOn's pOsitrOnic brain) FLA-OOSH!!! [sparks] "Dais.....zee......dais......zee ....tell.....me.....won't..... yooo.... dooo..." My SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
 May 22, 2011 - 9:23pm | I thought that when a robot cried it showed up as sparks from the power leads to it's photo-receptors. -iggy |
May 22, 2011 - 9:27pm | @Captain How is it we were posting at the same moment? I wasn't thinking to splash w00t on his suggestion. I was just imagining what how a robot would cry. So, everyone! Read the posts in both orders and enjoy as you prefer. -iggy |
May 22, 2011 - 10:51pm | The ambiguously described Design Team I refered to was made up of some who worked for .... Pizza and Mt. Dew... but if you can figure out who worked on what in a company that kept loose informaton on such accounts, and has since lost much of it's 'royalty contract' information... kewl... again: It's like the entire project is liability free [from content blame], because no one really knows who is at fault anyway. So noone can be blamed for any mistakes but; The Editor, The Artist, and The 'current' CEO, and they were not actually involved [directly] in the creative process either. Play a round of the corporate-shell-game, anyone? @w00t "No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader. No surprise in the writer, no surprise in the reader." — Robert Frost @AD "I am not a teacher, but an awakener." — Robert Frost @Zeb's "Poetry is what gets lost in translation." — Robert Frost @Oprah "Forgive, O Lord, my little jokes on Thee And I'll forgive Thy great big one on me." — Robert Frost @TSC "I'm not confused. I'm just well mixed." — Robert Frost Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
May 23, 2011 - 7:12am | @iggy: Yeah, I typed up my dribble, hit 'post comment', and bibbled my dibble as Mr. Iggy, or so I thought. (forgive my stylin' hip-hop lingo; haven't had my first cup o'java yet zibble.) My SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
May 23, 2011 - 2:03pm | @TSC "I'm not confused. I'm just well mixed." UP. |
May 23, 2011 - 9:10pm | Mechanon 'Mirth Beam' Gun [RANGE: Point Blank, DMG: 1d10 to brain only, DEFENSE: Unknown]  My SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
 June 6, 2011 - 6:34pm | I didn't use any of the Zeb's equipment. But I did embrace all the megacorp info, the larger/expanded frontier map, and the bits & pieces from the timeline that gave me ideas for new adventures. I used the races but wouldn't let my players look in the book because I described the Ifshnit better lol 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
June 6, 2011 - 10:21pm | No doubt there's some helpful info in Zeb's, and I basically did the same thing as you (although I'm interested what you might have changed about the Ifschnits. You didn't make them 3 meters tall like I did, did you?) [deep echoeing voice] NEW FROM ZEB'S GUIDE: "ATTACK OF THE GIANT MIDGETS!!!" My SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
June 7, 2011 - 12:47pm | Stop rag'in on Zeb's.   Ya know.. I wonder what the body types the Zeb's races use for robots. Wouldn't they follow their own biological design? Humma bots hop, Ischnti are small compared to other races, Ossakar bots have long necks, multiple arms and legs mounted on a barrel. These are the things that I refuse to keep me awake at night. Now... world domination of human worlds. Oh ya. ------------ Human delivery guy dropping of parts to w00t, "Aren't you a little too metalic to be recieving high-grade determioumn?" w00t, "Yes. Yes I am." w00t, "Hey jedion, I know what were going to do tonight." |
