 January 17, 2009 - 6:58am | Here's the thing, from what I've seen, Zebulon's guide gets trashed and bashed quite often in forums and yahoo groups dedicated to this game. If there are defenders of Zebs they dont seem to speak up much, from what I've seen. I'm glad Zebs came out personally and no I'm not trying to champion it. but for the most part the majority of zebs is the new skills and equipment and that was great stuff. The resolution system which everyone hates, was just a "bright idea" that some one at TSR came up with and was also instituted in a Gamma World edition then dropped. Honestly I think that what they were trying to do with that: having a great roll to hit mean high damage was admirable just flawed in its implimentation (Remember it came out at that time in TSR history when Lorraine Williams was in control and had forebad play testing because she wasn't paying people to play games). I never used it. The extra stuff on mega corps and cadres in Zebs was just setting fluff- pretty much take it or leave as per individual tastes- I liked it as it was one less thing I had to develope. The time line; well I've never been happy with that but from the number of other fan timelines I've seen on the net I guess most people had the same reaction. The new races- yuck I only liked the humma at the time dwarves in space (ifshnits) just didn't grab me though after 20 years and warhammer 40k and all the cool dwarves with space kit miniatures out there I'm much more amenable to them (maybe with a better background) if for no other reason than to use some of the really nice space dwarves made by hasselfreeminiatures. as for the race with 4 legs and 2 arms that just didn't make sense to me and that one I could just leave, in fact I cant even remember the name. Yeah it was half finished revision and suffered from no play testing (Like all other TSR products of the time). but I was certainly glad to have it. most of it was usable even if it lacked space ship skills and all references to the new resolution system were easy to translate to the old system. The things I didn't like in it I just didn't use but enough of it was usable that I found it indespensible. Maybe you all see it differently? Jedion I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 17, 2009 - 9:48am | Zeb was one of those things that were a pick and choose. I didn't care for the resolution chart myself either, it wasn't what I was use to in SF. On one hand it did make a very successful roll giev you better result, but I always thought there's a better way to get that with out a chart. All the detailed skills were nice, but then when converting old characters over into Zeb it became a burden to translate the blanket skills of the orginal rules into the mass of specialized skills. Surely some of the skills in Zeb crosses over into each other, didn't they? I mean if you have the computer skill of bypass security why isn't the ability to defeat security included as well? Do they need to be two different skills? And if they can include space dwarfs where are the alien lizard men? In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
 January 17, 2009 - 9:52am | That about sums it up, Jedion. I didn't get a copy of Zebs until years after I had stopped active playing so I never really felt strongly about it either way. I loved the setting information, didn't like all the things in the timeline, and never really tried the resolution system to have an opinion although the old one worked for me. I liked the idea of lots of skills though. I'd been playing a purely skill based system (RuneQuest) for several years at that point and loved it. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
January 17, 2009 - 10:05am | Again the I get the point of the Zebs resolution system but your right charts are lousy- they slow down play. And if it had been play tested then it most likely wouldn't have been used. I'm only in favor of space dwarves with a better background than the ifshnits had and because I'm a miniatures painter and I love the figures hassel free has- thats a lousy reason to include them in the setting, I know but I love good miniatures. As for lizard men we have them in the form of saurian races (I keep toying with doing something with their space kit equiped dwarves plus a squad of thier WW1 british kit equiped halflings- just for the fun of it plus this company's figs are a joy to paint.) I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 17, 2009 - 12:01pm | Dwarves in space...Games Workshop did it better. The Mechanon art was cartoonish, and their reason for being was not that well thought out, IMO...but, Bill and Shell both did an excellent treatment of the Mechs in SFMan #8, with conversions to AD rules and all. The mechanics stank(RoleMaster turned me off of charts), the artwork was worse, the timeline was all funked up, but there are items which can be salvaged from the mess(like the equipment and some of the weapons). "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 January 17, 2009 - 4:12pm | The timeline is too extensive. Granted not every PC is going to survive every game, but it would have been nice to permit one PC to have the possibility of experiencing the major focal points of the game (re: the modules). I mean the introductory adventure (Volturnus) takes place in pf40-something and the second sathar war is 120 years later, lasting a decade itself. Beyond the Frontier series takes place decades later. I think most of the antagonism for ZG stems from the fact that because it was so poorly designed and obviously not play tested, it flopped and therefore lead to discontinuation of the entire line of product. There are theories out there that TSR was pushing another SciFi game (Buck Rogers) and intentionally killed SF in the process. It's not the first time a business killed off a successful model in order to shovel something else down the consumer's throat. Promised future volumes didn't help either. The Mechanon art was cartoonish, The entire interior art was cartoonish at best. The four races were mediocre and every page turn from there got worse. It's like they turned a five year old loose with some zip-o-tone. A real let down after that awesome piece of cover art. |
 January 17, 2009 - 4:22pm | I'm the odd man out. I hated the rules for core SF. I love the universal chart in MSH/AMSH, which predates the use of it in GW or SF-ZG. I'd played it before, in HS, in fall '83, before getting into traveller, for about a month. (5 sessions a week for 3 weeks.) It was fun, but it wasn't enough fun, and the guy running it wasn't doing a great job (tho' by no means a horrible one, either). I walked when my Dralasite got laid up in hospital (and OOP) for a large lump of time. I didn't look back at SFAD for two more years. Fall '86, I got into V&V, and then converted from that to AMSH. The chart was a major revelation. I loved it. (I was running a lot of different games, a few sessions each, on friday nights, plus running Twilight 2000 at lunch in the ROTC room.) At some point, I had SFAD and SFKH, and played a little bit of it now and then (and I like KH far better than AD). I got Zeb's to read. And noted the new skill system. I loved it. my players didn't. They preferred paladium. :) I still prefer AMSH to any other supers game out, tho' the Saga MSH is pretty sweet, too. I didn't mind any of the races added to SF in SFZG. I do think that a new edition, rather than just a supplement, would have been a better idea for SF; really, SFAD doesn't integrate well with SFZG, and SFKH is not converted. I've tried several ways to do so, and never get feedback. |
 January 17, 2009 - 5:30pm | I liked the new skill system in Zeb's. The one I currently use is a mixture of that and SF2000. I also incorporated the new races, although I am personally not fond of the Humma, just because I dislike alien versions of obviously earth-type creatures. At least Vrusk and Yazarians are a little different than their earth inspirations. The Humma are just intelligent kangaroos. I did like the Osakar, though. That is an alien alien. "Rome didn't build an empire by having meetings. They did it by killing those who stood in their way." |
January 17, 2009 - 6:49pm | I agree, Shadow, all the interior art tanked, it was just the Go-Bot-like images of the Mechs was just the most flagrantly bad, IMO. The three glaring problems I've had with AD and KH were: Little or no integration between the two(I've heard Tyrannosaurus Rex's reasons, but they should've at least implemented a rudimentary starship design, movement and combat system, like other SFRPGs have), the pre-reqs for spaceship skills(and, I'm sorry folks, I didn't get into SFRPG so my character could travel from place to place on the freakin' Love Boat), the inconsistent skill resolution mechanic(½ STAT+10%/level for every thing is just so much simpler), and the higher XP costs for spaceship skills(and their being, in effect, a separate PSA), when they could've just as easily have been integrated into the three core PSAs without fuss or muss. All of these were easily fixed. ZEB's, on the other hand, were as Shadow has mentioned, un-playtested, un-thought-out mishmash from start to finish. Albeit, there were some good bits; however, not enough to justify buying it a second time, if given that option. It was especially unnecessary to add five new races to the mix, given that at least four of the five were re-treads of the core four and a bad rehash of bit players in the Volturnus module, and the fifth...clone Tripods with no fashion sense?! C'mon.... On the other hand, it's nothing which can't be fixed or redeemed, assuming anyone wants to. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
January 18, 2009 - 3:49am | I think Sathar agents penned the Guide. It worked, the Frontier disappeared into the printing press dust afterwards. |
January 18, 2009 - 9:21am | @ Shadow: the breakdown at TSR was that Gygax owned the company with the Bloom brothers (unsure of spellin on that name) and they were kind of running the comapny badly hiring family and providing them with limos and perks when they added nothing to the game. Gary made a play to wrest his company back from them and brought in Lorraine Williams for her financial expertese. She in turned cut a deal with the Blumes to buy them out and Gary, understandably ticked off, sold out to her and started his own company. Lorraine Williams hated gaming and gamers and went on record of saying they were not her social equals and shes the one who decreed no play testing at TSR which caused all their products to suffer. Zebs Guide had been in development and was planned for 3 vols. as a take of Hitch Hiker's Guide in fact each zebs volume was planned to be smaller (# of pages wise) than the actual vol that was released. Lorraine, being the grand daughter of the owner of the rights to Buck Rogers, decreed that TSR would dump SF and go with Buck Rogers. In fact besides collecting on the royalty rights TSR paid to publish BR she got paid for every BR product printed and she forced the company to print more and new stuff reguardless of whether it sat on warehouse shelves. TSR only stayed afloat on its very successful lines of novels (Drangon Lance, etc.) which were her brain child (to give her credit). If you look into Buck Rogers game at all, you will find an incredible # of materials for it which is surprising for such a dog of a game. Getting back to Zebs: When the announcement about killing SF and going with BR was coming down the designers quickly packaged everything they had (enough for 1.5 Zebs volumes) and rolled it out the door as what you see. It wasn't finished, it was half baked and I think they were hoping that it would sell and possibly save SF (probably why they left vol.1) on the cover. But saddly the fix was in. Lorraine gutted the company and WOTC most likely got stuck with hidden liabilities that they only discovered after the sale. (cant prove that and WOTC has never and most likely will never talk on the subject but many people believe that to be the case) Zebs much like SF fans are more then anything else a victims of corporate greed in the person of a snooty CEO. Part of me dreams that somewhere is an alternate universe where Gygax regained control of his company and Zebs had been done right. A universe where the undisputed king of Sci-Fi RPGs is a Game call Star Frontiers. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 18, 2009 - 4:17pm | That last post was more humor than anything...but I'd heard bits and pieces of the demise, thanks for filling in the blanks. |
January 18, 2009 - 6:17pm | It's not the first time a company kills off decent product for the sake of something they're proud of and coincidently doesn't sell. Sadly it's also not the last time it will happen either. I continue to be amazed at how the higher ups at such businesses cling to such trends, wishing for the best while blindly accepting the worst. I'm no business expert, but the "never mind what the customer wants, this is what WE want" attitude just doesn't seem to work out very well. Also brought to you by the letters G, D, and W. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 February 2, 2009 - 1:58pm | Can't resist throwing my hat into the ring on this one... For me, my animus against Zebs derives from several sources: Timeline Problems and the Second Sathar War: Just very poorly done. I was particularly disgusted with the idea that the Sathar would negotiate, and that the UPF would see it as anything but a hollow ploy. Plus, what was the signifigance of that remote asteroid base? The whole SW2, as I saw it, revolved around the battles of the fleets. Why would some dopey rock base matter? Not only does it matter, it dominates the conclusion of the war! Mechanons and Mechanon Revolt: Absolutely retarded. This has been explored in greater detail elsewhere, but the idea that the Eorna would not stop, or at least warn Star Law/UPF about a Mechanon threat is just absurd. Plus, part of StarSpawn is convincing the Mechanons (through a very tough role play, I might add) that bio lifeforms are worthy of respect and alliance. Don't these bots have any gratitude for the efforts made to save Volturnus from the Sathar hordes? No doubt that the Sathar would have blasted them into components if they conquered the planet. Wouldn't the Eorna (who created them, after all) have any capability to control the Mechanons - at least to the point where they would not be a threat? The Races - UGH These are the worst. They are cheesy and unimaginative. All Osakar look exactly the same? Hummas are total jerks? Dwarves in space? No thanks to all. It seems to me that they were just put in there. "Hey kids, here is a new sourcebook, so here are some new races. Have a nice day." Compared to races in other games, they are just lame. I have said this many times, more races does not improve a game. A much better move would have been to "flesh out" the existing races in the modules. How about being able to play an Eorna? Or an Ul-Mor, Edestaki or Kurabanda? Or even a Notui or Mehmne from the War Machine series? These races would have folded in quite well into the existing system - particularly the Eorna. Granted the Eorna creations were primitive, but with a little bit of work, they could have been "modernized" (for lack of a better term) and brought into the setting. Resolution Table: Might have been good, but totally unnecessary. Why re-invent the wheel? Equipment and New Skills Good stuff here, but I suspect that most of it was untested. Plus, it seemed to me that the new weapons, particularly, would have rendered some of the original weapons obsolete. Not the end of the world, but there are game balance issues with this that Zebs obviously just ignored. Mentalists If I want The Force, I will play Star Bores. Nuff said on that one. At least they had the decency to name it optional (right?) Poor Artwork Others have explained this better than I can. Ditto to what they said. Violation of the "spirit" of Star Frontiers This is the most important problem. In this reckless expansion, they damaged the original goods. Look at the cover of the Warriors of White Light module. Look at the rough-and-tumble technicians in the artwork of the other books and modules. See the theme here? A gritty, hard core corner of space of loosely organized planets and cultures struggling to make a living, survive, colonize, with the vicious Sathar hanging over them at all times. Not to mention pirates, creepy corporations, and dozens of other possibilities. Zebs tried to "Star Trek-ize" the game with all of the new races, while at the same time "Star War-izing" with the Mentalist stuff. Rather than focusing on and developing the initial joys of the Star Frontiers setting specified in the paragraph above, they flailed about and spiralled in all kinds of directions, stumbling everywhere. They tried to plagarize themes from other sci-fi sources, all but abandoning the unique quality they had developed in the original game! In conclusion, Zebs was just an effort to expand for the sake of expanding. As a result, shiz was just poured into the book, pell-mell. Very poorly done. |
February 2, 2009 - 7:02pm | Imperial Lord, for games I played I did allow the Eorna as a PC character. It seemed like a natural thing, they were intelligent and advanced compared to the rest of the planetary life. I'd rather run a game my way instead of however TSR or WotC wants it to be. If a player wanted to be a Kurabanda or Ul-Mor I would not oppose it, although they would be lacking in a lot of technical knowledge. They'd pretty much have to be educated first with the basics of the Frontier's schooling, which is what you would think will happen. Unless some dirty Mega-corp or politician wants to keep the dumbed down and controled. I've read all about Lorraine Williams and her retarded buisness model. Flooding the market with so many different sourcebooks for D&D that were not directly linked to each other. I think you could say Zebs Guide was just the test bed for that, changing SF rules in the middle of the game so to speak. I liked the old rules, still like them. But I've been working on and off to bring SF to SilCore rules. Feels like a blend of the old rules combined with a better version of the Zeb rules. No charts needed. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
February 2, 2009 - 7:55pm | I guess I'm more forgiving of Zebs in light of what I think those developing it tried to do by rolling out anything and everything they had before Lorraine Williams could kill it all together. I kind of interpret their actions as "We feel bad for whats about to be done to our customer base so lets dump everything we've got into a cover and rush it out the door." To me that feels like they were trying to do us a favor but as good as the intentions were it didn't come off well. So that begs the question: would it have been better for them to do nothing and let Zebs die still born rather than rush a premature delivery with its associated defects? Would we have been better off without ZEBs altogether or has it servered a purpose in the greater scheme of things- pushing people to develope house rules taking the best from Zebs and fusing it to the best from AD and in the long run we get stuff like SF2000 and Frontier Space. Would Frontier Space be a reality right now if people hadn't been tinkering with Zebs for years till the community comes to the corporate realization that we need to band together and jointly develope Frontier Space? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 4, 2009 - 4:43pm | True that, jedi. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
February 4, 2009 - 10:58pm | Oh there's definitely lots of possiblities and inspiration for SF expansion, no doubt there. Yes, I incorporated the Rim and its inhabitants into my campaign (although made some improvements to the carbon based lifeforms). Yes I incorporated the Mentalist disciplines, albeit only for NPC allied and/or nemesis characters. I broke down the sub-skill system to work with AD. I incorporated the vehicle modifications. Still up in the air about body comps, not really sure how those should blend into an AD game. As for the timeline, well I rewrote it according to my perspective of the upstart government faction that overthrows the UPF andmerged all the modules within less than a one hundred year span enabling one set of players to live through all of the events (if they survived each one). So to answer the question regarding release it as is or let it die off anyways? I think we benefit from it more than if it had not been printed, as poorly designed as it may be. If anything, it gave gamers an extra year to hunt down any remaining TSR printed material before they folded up the Frontier tent for good. |
February 4, 2009 - 11:25pm | Either way, having it printed or not, it would not have deterred any of us from striking up SF discussions here and elsewhere these days one bit. If it hand't been printed, I wouldn't be on these boards. I'd still consider Star Frontiers an irrevocably piss poor has-been system. I'd have never given the setting a second shot. |
February 5, 2009 - 12:06pm | Aramis I'd think you'd be the exception to the rule here. And I can see your point about Zebs chart. After all DP9's games SilCore, Heavy Gear, Jovian Chronicles also use a system where the margin of success roll determins how successful the skill roll was. Only it doesn't need the Zebs chart to check with. I suppose Zebs chart was the influnece for other games methods of determining skill checks. So I'd say the Zebs guide was good that it was released in the long run, even half finished as it was. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
February 7, 2009 - 1:46am | Quite simply put, the chart works great in MSH/AMSH, and I like the chart in SFZG, tho the monocrome really did it no service.. I only wish a KH addition had been done. |
February 7, 2009 - 4:20am | If it hand't been printed, I wouldn't be on these boards. I'd still consider Star Frontiers an irrevocably piss poor has-been system. I'd have never given the setting a second shot. Okay, I stand corrected...it would not have deterred any of us save for one from striking up SF discussions here and elsewhere these days one bit  Suffice it to say, I believe most of us enjoy SF for its simplicity. |
February 7, 2009 - 2:17pm | Personally I liked the ZG skills and disliked (not hated) the AD skills- just seemed to boxy and I liked the possibility of near infinite variety in starting characters under Zebs verses the fairly finite possibilities of starting character under AD. Sure good role play overcomes the boxy AD skills but you can equally have good role play with ZG. To me the skill options of Zebs is a chance to really personalize a character and that makes me more attached to him. I'm glad to have gotten ZG but to be honest the inconsistencies in it still aggravate me. As for the resolution system since it was introduced into Gamma World 2.0 as well as ZG I think that it represents an attempt at a universal res system they may have envisioned as superceding Boot Hill, Top Secret, Gamma world, and SF- unfortunately the business philosophy of the top TSR brass banned play testing as a unworthy of being paid a salary for other wise a lot of things would have been different. If Gygax had wrested control of TSR back he would have maintained the philosophy of not hosing the customers by degrading the quality of the core books and would have kept the emphasis on great modules (at least he claimed that would have been his plan long after the fact) would he have had the business accumen to keep the company on top of the RPG market long into the new century- no way to know. But certainly things would have been different. As for Zebs I always took it as a buffet- I load my plate with the things I like and I'm happy to have options. and theses days you can get a free PDF of it so what the hey its not like its costing you. I dont always like or use the things I find in StarFrontiersman magazine but I'm still glad to have it. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 8, 2009 - 1:55am | Y'all keep forgetting to mention that the table system was, effectively, already present in MSH and AMSH, where it was quite successful, and where it originated. And, since I've played and run both Rolemaster and Spacemaster, it should be obvious tables don't bug me. |
February 8, 2009 - 4:38am | It seems to me, and I'm going to make a parallel comparison that may work...old style versus new style depends on the target audience. My comparison is going to be in the field of motorcycles: while I'm no old rider that had the good fortune to sample many of what are now considered vintage machines, and at the same time I'm no young whipper snapper that mandates the latest and greatest in goes-fast technology...I prefer the cleaner simplicity of the older bikes. My personal ride is something that is an 80s design with just enough "20th century technology" to make it reliable but at the same time a bit of a pain to work on. I've worked on older bikes and I've worked on newer bikes, and quite frankly I'll take an older bike for wrench bending any day of the week and twice on Tuesday over the modern super sports with their nightmarish labyrinth of electrical spider webbing. I also like the styling of the older bikes, which has influenced the modifications I've done on mine. Many a high dollar builder has gone back to the 60s for styling inspirations but ends up mucking it up with modern technology and the aforementioned nightmarish mish-mash while the end result is cluttered (and arguably even functional). The old style versus table style gaming is obviously a similar love it/hate it thing. I would guess, and I say guess as I really never followed role playing history much at all, that the table style was a "new, exciting, and flashy" system that was targetting new gamers i.e. fresh blood to the fold. Possibly us older fogies prefer the older style while the younger group prefer the newer style, and a further possibility is that maybe a few older fogies tried the new system, and some liked it while others hated it. Throw me into the "those that tried it and didn't like it" category. Now from what I've gleaned in this thread on the history of TSR and the lack of play testing tells me that like my motorcycling comparo above, Zeb's Guide was the high dollar builder trying to amalgate the old with the new. And sadly like many high dollar bike builders, they lacked the basic knowledge of the end result (if you watch enough "American Chopper" you'll note that Paul Jr. tends toward style at the sacrafice of safety and engineering while Senior goes the other way...it's obvious which family member knows about bike building) as was evidenced by the lack of experience i.e. play testing the product before releasing it to public. In bike building terms, they threw together a franken-bike and hoped it wouldn't fall apart when the customer bolted down the road on it rather than going for knowledge in the field combined with proven methods. But again, not knowing much of the history I could be wrong. That's my theory... |
February 8, 2009 - 10:09am | It wasn't Franken-Bike...it was Franken-Bike's Monster.... Seriously, the Zeb's hate just might be another case of OT vs. prequels...me, I mined it for some gear, some cadres, cults and corps, a little bit of the history, and now, since I'm running Space Rats, the Rim races as well(expect a project or SFMan article on the Coalition's Flight soon). The table resolution system put me off for the same reasons Aramis liked it so much...that, and too many games of SFB and Squad Leader.... I'm not against PCs having psi abilities—provided they're from an extremely limited list provided by me—but the Mentalist system in ZEB's needs a great deal of work before being inflicted upon an unsuspecting Referee. The Rim races suffered from bad art and poor development, but they're not completely hopeless cases(except maybe the lawn gnomes....), provided players and refs can take the material at hand and create something decent, like Bill and Shell did with the Mechanons in SFMan#8. In fact, one could use the idea that Humma are just Yazirian kangaroos as a springboard for an interspecies war 'tween the Yazzies and the hoppers. The timeline is wack(doesn't go nearly far enough, for one), but can be mined for ideas for one's own timeline. Oh, jedi, if you go on the starfrontiers.org forums, you should be able to get in touch with member troyterrell, who is pretty much the biggest ZEB's fan on that site. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
February 8, 2009 - 7:18pm | Jedi - I would call it more of a "cherry pick" as opposed to a "salad bar", but yes, there are some things redeemable from Zebs. Particularly the skills and the equipment. However, beware the play test problems. If I do add tech and skills from Zebs, it will be in a slow flow to make sure that nothing gets out of hand with the power of some of those items. Aramis - I think the explanation for your support of Zebs is that you saw it BEFORE playing the main game. That way, you saw all the material at once (more or less) as opposed to playing a dozen+ modules and THEN seeing Zebs. That might explain everything, as you would be looking at the books in reverse order chronologically, and you would not have any of the passion or nostalgia as to the "spirit" of the game. Am I correct with these assertions? |
February 8, 2009 - 11:20pm | My approach to adding Zebs material is this- I use SF2000 rules with a few mods of my own. I have not worked up a timeline out of shear laziness but my players dont seem to care so I'm not worried. I started the volturnus campaign with only AD equipment available and periodically add stuff from either ZEBs or StarFrontiersman by doing up a frontier magazine (Play Robot, Popular Technology and such) with "review" of new frontier products, a nice photo shopped cover and sometimes a campaign clue- the first magazine was found half hanging out of a waste recycler and when a pc said he would pick it up and examine it I handed over the stapled sheets and on the back was a hand written clue that was written by an npc. this approach lets me add stuff piece meal and i get to have a james bond going to Q moment in the campaign. though thats harder now that their on Volturnus so I've planned for a copy of Play Robot to be found at the first pirate outpost in SF1. it will have the new info on shot guns from starfrontiersman and i'll be arming a few of the pirates with shot guns; nothing to jazzy. I've combed the web for sexy looking robot art and even came up with a centerfold for this "magazine" Also since one player wanted to take his character down a jedi knight kind of path I told him ok and worked that into the Ul-mor background where they take part in the great link ceremony ( the time of hieghtened telepathic ability) and each PC has a vision based off of some forshadowing of what I know is coming in the modules and the one PC will have a severe reaction to the great link with side effects of mentalist abilities- I pre warned him to stockpile some exp to spend on raising his LOG score and paying for what he needs in this new move for his character. its actually a very low key approach to ZEbs- I only work in bits and pieces as I need them otherwise we use the rest of AD or SF2000- I love all skill checks being 1/2 an ability + 10%/skill level as their is not chart consulting and play stays fast. its so refreshing to have game night with 3 combats plus some role play and problem solving compared to the D&D 3.5 game I sit in on which can barely handle 1 combat/ night. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 9, 2009 - 1:30am | IL: No, I played SFAD 4 years before I found Zebs; it was, in fact, my first non-D&D game 2nd & 3rd week of HS, M-F 40m at lunch. I hated SFAD's rules from the get go. ZG was the "wait, there may be something here" moment. In between, I found AMSH, and loved it. (I also found SFB, Civ, Diplomacy, Traveller, T2K, GURPS, Champions 3rd, Space Opera, Spacemaster, Rolemaster, Robotech, TMNT, and about a dozen more games in that same time frame.) ZG literally redeemed Star Frontiers for me. (And I bought it cheap; $4, IIRC.) |
 February 9, 2009 - 1:33pm | the reason that zebs is trash talked so much is that they knew if was unfinished. and I beleive they also knew that the project would not be finished.. that zebs would be the last book... they put it out to make money on what they had done knowing that it was not finished and woulld not be finished.. The trash talk is not for the book .. Its optional ruled for petes sake.. The trash talk the blame is for the comany that put it out and then abandoned the project.. i have used zebs in game. I will use zebs in game again if i get a group... |
 February 17, 2009 - 11:32am | I am one of the few, the Proud (Yeah, I'm a Devil Dog too, I like the Zeb's amd will tell anyone so. True, I never use the resolution table and system, but I use everything else EXCEPT the mentalist profession. THAT STUNK!!!!! But I digress. I loved the new way that they broke down the skills. I offer players a choice of systems to build thrie PC's on. I say that the AD system represents a character that grew up on a restrictive world like Yast or one of the MegaCorp worlds where education serves the Corp. The people who grow up ther are trained in the skills that the Mega Corp need. I say that anyone who uses the more liberated system in Zeb's are from a freer ssytem like Prenglar. On Port Loren and Morgaine's World, people are free to choose what interests them to learn about. I didn't care a great deal for Ifshnits, but they are OK. I don't look at them as Dwarves either. They don't have the personalities of Dwarves. They are traders and merchants. The Osakar are vastly underrated as a PC. They offer a vast field of individuality for a player. They are all so alike(Like identical twins) that they streatch out to express some individuality. They spend obscene ammounts on clothes, just so they look diff. They can speak any language and make lots of sound effects. Just imagine one of them and a Dral in a fart sound contest! Just think about how one could sound just like a Sathar on a Radio and fool them into al;lowing you into an outpost. Trojan fourlegs anyone? The new gear was de bomb!! I love the proton beam! But, it was already out in the Polyhedron mag anyway so it wqsn't new for the Zeb's was it? The maxiprogs and bodycomps were sublime! Just think of how you could screw up a player who becomes dependant on one, then looses it in a fire swamp or to rustmonsters! )Like a Paladin loosing his armour !) I loved it. The artwork coukld have used some major revamping that's true, but it wasn't disasterous. just not up to snuff as we had come to expect from SF I wanted some powered assault armour,, but found a good system in an old Dragon article and use that with the PAA operate skill:) so, in short, Zeb's GOOD!'mostly. FIAWOL
TANSTAAFL!! |
