 November 29, 2008 - 9:25am | The StarFrontiersman has come up with a lot of new stuff, some of which
works, some of which didn't work as well. But all of it is thought
provoking. Therefore, we'll need to decide on a core set of mechanics
for the game system. We should decide as a whole how much of SF we
want to use and how much of the community material we want to add. Discuss? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
 November 29, 2008 - 9:50am | I guess I will get the ball rolling in this area... #1 I believe that Bill's recent (in terms of zine contributions) treatment of the Skills is the best I have seen. Flexible, moldable, and yet essentially comapatable with the original mechanic. That being said, I would like a few additions be included that allow for psychic powers, paranormal issues, or even a rudimentary energy control (ie magic). Of course each could be placed into optional blocks, but I would like the game to be able to be flexible to allow for a variety of game types that might include: cyberpunk, babylon5ish style, horror (haunted spaceship anyone), or even a dimensional or time travel style. It does not need to be core, or even relevant to any proposed setting, but the rule mechanics should be in place so that we can appeal to the largest audience right out of the gate. #2 We need to revisit what 'core' technology is. Although I agree that the game should try to espouse a retro-tech feel, real technology has come along nicely, making many concepts downright silly. Computer, Data size, Power usage or generation, communication gear, all come up in my mind, and there is more. Remember, we must appeal to a crowd that includes folks who were not even born before MTV, Cable, Cell-phones, or the Internet. Retro is cool, but it should be retro-science from 'now', not retro-scrience from 1980 ideas. #3 Space Travel and Spaceship design. Can we try to retrink the stellar distances, hyperspace or equivalent, ship design. Also, using the current ship design (look & feel) could be construed as IP. If we move to a more generic style (star trek, traveler, and others' flat ship design with artificial gravity considerations) then we keep ourselves safer from any legalities. I will come up with more later <insert witty comment here> |
 November 29, 2008 - 10:15am | A note on your last topic, RK...2300AD also lack artificial grav tech, other than rotating ship sections(though I think plans are still parallel to long axis), just in case anyone's interested. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 November 29, 2008 - 10:49am | I would like to retain the ship types ( I don't believe vertical decks are IP ). I like the long travel times, this gives the game a frontiers feel (Which I believe were tying to capture). I would revisit the types of engines and planetary landings. Galaxy Rangers had tech, psi and magic all in one universe. Doc and Qball were always arguing about tech -vs- magic. In the heart of Tarkon it was a computer and magic? They did an excellent job balancing it all out. I think were all middle of the road when it comes to tech. wood staves ---- 2008 with space travel ---- psi travel, alternate universe SF did a good job for the amount of tech during the time the game was created. I agree with Will, taking SF and updating for 2008 adding some well thought out guesses. |
November 29, 2008 - 10:58am | Just remember that rules are not IP, but look & style are. We should refine anything that reflects the style of the original game. Tweaks or something distinct that separates this endeavor from the original should be encouraged. I agree, distances should continue to be great. Anyone know the common distances to nearby stars in real life? I am no astronomer, but we should do the stellar map in more realistic terms with loads more unknowns in-between the known worlds. <insert witty comment here> |
November 29, 2008 - 11:00am | Tech and magic can exist side by side...we have the Force from SW, elven magic from the Borderlands anthology, technomancy from B5...the possibilities are endless. As are the headaches. My opinion, FX powers should be low down on our to-do list, after mechanics, settings, tech, races and such, and that such powers should be sharply limited for PC races, lest we have Monty Haul rearing its ugly head in every adventure.... "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 November 29, 2008 - 11:16am | Closest star is 4.2 light years away. The spacing in the Frontier is about right, maybe a little crowded, but it was supposed to be in a denser region of a galaxy. As to the parallel decks, I wouldn't worry about that being an IP issue. If we don't have artifical gravity there is no other way to do it. It's just basic physics. The truth is, the layout of the KH ships is just what you'd get given the technology choices. The only thing you could do different is make them wider and squatter. They wouldn't have to be long cylinders. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
November 29, 2008 - 11:50am | Parallel decks are not IP - I'm certain of that. In fact, they were extrapolated from a concept popular in the 80's that relied on acceleration as a form of artificial gravity, having occupants strap in mid-voyage while the ship spun itself around, then reverse acceleration causing gravity on the return trip. The faster the acceleration, the greater the gravity. Because it was a popular scientific principal at the time, it was used by Star Frontiers development team who wanted their work to have a hard science feel without being bogged down in technobabble. I think parallel deck plans are fine. I even found a wiki page once that described it as a scientific theory for artificial gravity - and it didn't cite Star Frontiers as a reference :-) One of the things I'm wondering about is the ability score list. Yes, game mechanics aren't copyrighted, but if we have a game whose likeness too closely resembles SF, it might raise hackles on a legal team or two. So... I. Attributes (I worry about being able to use STR/STA, DEX/RS, INT/LOG, PER/LDR... we may have to consider our own attribute set that is equally comprehensive) II. Skills (Thanks for the kudos on the skill system from SFman#9 - this can serve as a starting point for sure, though I'm sure we'll think of things to add or define clearly). III. FX (how much/little, how core/optional, etc. Smoot, w00t, and Will all have excellent points. Just because some people think it has no place in a hard science game doesn't mean all players want to play a hard science game. Some of us are inspired by different sources than others, and some of us like a little more fiction in our science. This could be a big and well-tested optional section in the Referees book maybe? How core then? Maybe in the setting book we can have optional sections in the timeline or pop culture or political details which only apply if you're using certin optional mechanics - Psionics, Channeling, etc.) IV. Money (Credits is a term used in a ton of Sci-Fi, so we're safe there... but nobody ever defined to me what exactly a credit is. Is it paper currency? Can you rifle the pockets of your persuer and scavange 40-50Cr? Or is it some complex thing like the Wealth system in Marvel or d20 Modern? How much should things cost, keep the same basic cost structure as SF or should someone with an economics background come up with something more unique?) V. Technology (I think we all generally agree that we need to update computers and robotics. This will be fun, and I'd like to suggest some nice linedrawn images like I did for the SFman - they look cool to me :P As Smoot says, we need to decide what is the core technology of the Frontier's modern era) VI. Scope (Same sized Frontier? Same rate of communication and travel? These things seem necessary in order to preserve the "Frontier" feel of the game) 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 29, 2008 - 12:36pm | I. How about STRength, DEXterity, MIND, PERsonality? Generic enough that we're not ripping anyone off, unique enough that we're not ripping anyone off? II. Agreed. III. Making FX an option seems the way to go. Personally, as long as it's well thought-out and balanced, I'm in favor of it. IV. I've always seen it as pure electronic currency transferred wirelessly between two points and not scrip at all(cept on low tech worlds without access to the interstellar computer network). V. Agreed. VI. Maybe even multiple "frontier" maps, but yeah, sounds about right. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 29, 2008 - 12:46pm | I think we will defintely want to come up with our own mix of characteristics. I also think we should break them apart, i.e not have them in pairs. Beyond that, we just need to come up with a list of 5-8 characteristics that will be important in the game mechanic and have at it. As to FX, I would defnintely make them an optional part of the mechanic (I'm on of those who don't like it in my SF setting) but there is no reason it can't be a core optional rule (i.e. in the core rule mechanics section) as long as it is well developed and tested. For the scope, I think that depends on some of our technology choices. I like the rule of thumb given in one of the other source books (I think it was GURPS Space). The basic idea was if it took more than 1 month for the calvary to arrive from the other side of your region of influence you were controlling too much area. That's about how big the Frontier is with the SF tech choices. In the end though this is more of a campaign setting issue not a mechanics issue. I would recommend that we not worry too much about organization right now and just get down to cases. We can organize it all later. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
November 29, 2008 - 1:20pm | <snip>... I would recommend that we not worry too much about organization right now and just get down to cases. We can organize it all later. Agreed, but I suffer from developer ADD (no, not a medical diagnosis haha - just my opinion of myself). Having topics like these to jump to now and then keeps my brain focused at least on the project as a whole while still giving it other fat to chew, ya know?3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 29, 2008 - 1:24pm | Perhaps for Abilities we define a certain attribute, then we can have sub-abilites that are derivative. For instance and these are quick examples: Constitution (Strength, Endurance) Dexterity (Agility (for the body), Deftness (hand-eye coordination) Intelect (Recall, Wisdom) Personality (Leadership, Willpower) I think virtually everything can be tied to one of those 4 base abilities. The others can be used to divide and diversify characters with something similar to the +/-10 adjustment.... While on the topic of abilities, remove the upper limits but put in place a graduated scale for advancing. This allows for certain races/types to exceed typical limits, infinite character advancement (theoretically). This has been discussed in few other threads, as well as what is the median score. I would also like to see modifiers based on abilities. One way is to configure all scores to have a relevant modifier calculated exactly like PS or RS (whichever). More uniform method. <insert witty comment here> |
November 29, 2008 - 1:27pm | <snip>... I would recommend that we not worry too much about organization right now and just get down to cases. We can organize it all later. Agreed, but I suffer from developer ADD (no, not a medical diagnosis haha - just my opinion of myself). Having topics like these to jump to now and then keeps my brain focused at least on the project as a whole while still giving it other fat to chew, ya know? . Let's just make a few more of them specific topics. I started a few more threads in that vein.Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
November 29, 2008 - 1:35pm | <snip>... I would recommend that we not worry too much about organization right now and just get down to cases. We can organize it all later. Agreed, but I suffer from developer ADD (no, not a medical diagnosis haha - just my opinion of myself). Having topics like these to jump to now and then keeps my brain focused at least on the project as a whole while still giving it other fat to chew, ya know?You too? You mean I'm not the only one?! :D "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 29, 2008 - 2:03pm | Perhaps for Abilities we define a certain attribute, then we can have sub-abilites that are derivative. For instance and these are quick examples: So in your ideas above, we would still have abilities coupled or paired, but just in a different manner. I like your list and have some suggestions of my own:Constitution (Strength, Endurance) Dexterity (Agility (for the body), Deftness (hand-eye coordination) Intelect (Recall, Wisdom) Personality (Leadership, Willpower) I think virtually everything can be tied to one of those 4 base abilities. The others can be used to divide and diversify characters with something similar to the +/-10 adjustment.... While on the topic of abilities, remove the upper limits but put in place a graduated scale for advancing. This allows for certain races/types to exceed typical limits, infinite character advancement (theoretically). This has been discussed in few other threads, as well as what is the median score. I would also like to see modifiers based on abilities. One way is to configure all scores to have a relevant modifier calculated exactly like PS or RS (whichever). More uniform method. Physique (instead of Constitution) seems to describe a combination of strength and endurance to me. Dexterity is great - or even Prowess or something - with Agility and Coordination as subabilities. Yes, deftness works too but seems to have a British quality that many of us don't associate with hand-eye coordination. Since people always use "hand-eye coordination" as a definition for the ability that refers to fine motor skills, let's just call it Coordination? Just a thought. Intellect is perfect for an ability that includes all mental faculties. I sorta see a sub-division of deductive reasoning versus acquired knowledge/wisdom. For example, I know I have high deductive reasoning but my mom always seems to beat me in Trivial Persuit (which relies not on Reason but Wisdom). Maybe Reason and Wisdom? Personality is great for a charisma-based category that includes the strength of the superego (or Willpower). Where does charm fit into your subdivision of leadership and willpower though? Certainly Han Solo has a charm about him that isn't necessarily leadership or willpower - not sure. But one question I have... do these four attributes exist only to define the other two paired with them, then they are no longer used? Or are these the core abilities and if players WISHED they can adjust them (sorta like AD&D 2E players option book did)? For example, if I'm happy with just the definition constructed by those four scores, my character's attributes are done. However, if I rolled a low Intellect score (40) and wanted to explain that I'm naive but not unintelligent then I could show it as Intellect 40 (Reason 45, Wisdom 35). If I didn't differentiate (which many starting players would prefer) then any roll having to do with Reason or Wisdom would simply be against a score of 40. But since I differentiated, I now have different chances of success based on the situation, though as an average my Intellect is still 40. Or maybe this is just complicated? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 29, 2008 - 2:24pm | I was just throwing out some organizational examples that divorse what we are doing from the original. I can see the roots of the original still being there, just a little obscured by re-organization and redefining. We could have third derivatives for abilities. For instance, Charm could be the third for Personality. Recall, Reason, and 'Common Sense/Wisdom' could be the breakdown for Intellect. Physique (I like better) could be Strength, Endurance, and something like Athleticism (call it an aptitude towards sports - as one might be oil-rig worker with lots of endurance and strength, but little aptitude towards the organized sports, and the Football player who couldn't even begin to endure the rigors of that job). Dexterity could be thirded by a Reaction score. Of course a third ability break would be a excellent way to make the game look very different from the original while still holding onto the roots. It would add greatly to my sense of character differentiation, which can help define the role play aspects. Roll once for each Triad (comes up again), then modify with +/- 20 through the set. Anyhow, just fuel for idea generation. It would need refinement anyhow <insert witty comment here> |
November 29, 2008 - 2:34pm | I'm going to make a thread for Primary Abilities and reference this thread. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
