 August 28, 2008 - 6:29pm | Hi! I don't expect anyone to know who I am (I barely do), so I'll just say: I'm Dr Rotwang! I heart gaming, and I have a blog. On this blog, I recently mentioned that I got a copy of SF Remastered (and Knight Hawks to go with it), and following an invitation from Bill Logan I thought I'd come over here and talk SF with the SF dudes. So far, I like it. I like its simplicity -- no, I mean its uncomplicated directness. I don't like that PCs start out kind of low-powered, and I REALLY don't like that the prereqs for Pilot skills are so high. Thankfully I'm sure I change change all of that as I will, without fearing repercussion from...uh...I dunno, the Star Frontiers Police. Has anyone else held this opinion, and what'd you do about it? Dr Rotwang! Totally Different Head. TOTALLY. |
 August 28, 2008 - 6:57pm | I know you from RPGnet, Doc. Yes, there are some wonky bits in the system. The prereqs for Spaceship skills were put in to enforce the "PCs don't go running around in their own ship from the get-go" setting conceit, as far as I can tell. There are multiple projects here dedicated to tweaking the rules, which just goes to show how flexible the whole thing is, at least in my opinion. Star Law will definitely not come and take your dice away. If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. -- Carl Sagan |
August 28, 2008 - 7:11pm | Heya, Corvus! Yeah, I remember you, too. that night in...beijing? Buenos Aires? No, Juneau! No...uh... ...anyway, yeah. I figure I can just say, "Okay now that you're done with your characters, you have...uh...fifteen XPs to spend! And Starship skills are their own PSA that you can start with!" and be all done with it and stuff. I mean, why not? Dr Rotwang! Totally Different Head. TOTALLY. |
 August 28, 2008 - 7:16pm | Welcome to the site. The high pre-reqs for the space ship skills were built into the orginial system back when it came out in the early to mid 80's. The Knight Hawks rules were an expansion to the original (now called Alpha Dawn but orginally just called Star Frontiers) rules that came out a couple of years after the orginal. As for them being too high, you'll find mixed feelings about that as well as mixed feelings about whether there should be pre-reqs at all. On the topic of chracters starting out low-powered, I personally don't see that as an issue. In the end they are only low powered if the referee throws things that are too tough at them from the very beginning. Plus you can always start your campaign by giving the PC's some set XP to flesh out their characters with. We have games going that have started both ways and they work out just fine. And you can call the system simple, that's one of the things we love about it. It's simple to use and simple to expand or modify. If you're interested in playing, there are quite a few games going on and starting up. Check out the Online Star Frontiers Games project and the Gameroom on this site and swing on over to The Star Frontiers Network site and drop into the gaming forums there. At the Star Frontiers Network, we've got one game just getting off the ground (with room for one more PC) and two more starting up and looking for players. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
August 28, 2008 - 7:25pm | Welcome to the site. Thanks!On the topic of chracters starting out low-powered, I personally don't see that as an issue. In the end they are only low powered if the referee throws things that are too tough at them from the very beginning. Plus you can always start your campaign by giving the PC's some set XP to flesh out their characters with. We have games going that have started both ways and they work out just fine. Yeah, but I know what kind of character my wife likes to play...Extra XP is how I'd go into it. just a gut thing. And you can call the system simple, that's one of the things we love about it. It's simple to use and simple to expand or modify. I do call it simple, but please note that I don't do so disparagingly; in fact, that's why I said "its uncomplicated directness" -- in other words, the fact that it doesn't screw around and just goes for results. I might join a game. My daughter (4 years old) helped me make a character tonight -- she picked out a Vrusk, said "she's a bad guy", and that she "fights good guys" with a flintlock. I had to change it to an autopistol. She also named the character "Apron", and, uh... I think I'd change that, too. Dr Rotwang! Totally Different Head. TOTALLY. |
August 28, 2008 - 7:36pm | Extra XP is how I'd go into it. just a gut thing. Yeah, that's how we do it as well. I do call it simple, but please note that I don't do so disparagingly; in fact, that's why I said "its uncomplicated directness" -- in other words, the fact that it doesn't screw around and just goes for results. I know you weren't being disparaging, my point was we don't take the work simple dispaagingly, at least I don't. We use it all the time as a positive aspect of the game. I might join a game. My daughter (4 years old) helped me make a character tonight -- she picked out a Vrusk, said "she's a bad guy", and that she "fights good guys" with a flintlock. I had to change it to an autopistol. She also named the character "Apron", and, uh... I think I'd change that, too. Yeah, probably want to change the name, but you can keep the flintlock  if you want. The game has stats for muskets in the archaic weapons and they fall under the projectile weapons skill. Of course I assume you saw that and just wanted a bit more fire power.
Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 August 28, 2008 - 8:33pm | try this: http://copycat042.googlepages.com/Starfrontiersm20v.03.pdf |
 August 29, 2008 - 8:26am | I know you from RPGnet, Doc. Yes, there are some wonky bits in the system. The prereqs for Spaceship skills were put in to enforce the "PCs don't go running around in their own ship from the get-go" setting conceit, as far as I can tell. There are multiple projects here dedicated to tweaking the rules, which just goes to show how flexible the whole thing is, at least in my opinion. Star Law will definitely not come and take your dice away. "Star Law! Throw out your dice and come out with your hands/psuedopods up!" "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
August 29, 2008 - 8:30am | Heya, Corvus! Yeah, I remember you, too. that night in...beijing? Buenos Aires? No, Juneau! No...uh... ...anyway, yeah. I figure I can just say, "Okay now that you're done with your characters, you have...uh...fifteen XPs to spend! And Starship skills are their own PSA that you can start with!" and be all done with it and stuff. I mean, why not? A duhhhhh! An obvious solution to which I was oblvious. Starship PSA with XP costs the same as for Technological PSA, or, even make two PSAs, Spacer(Military) and Spacer(Civilian), with the former PSA having the XP costs equal to the average of the Military and Technological PSAs. Oh, and welcome to the site, Doc. I'm Will, and I'm here to confuse...I mean help. I think. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
August 29, 2008 - 8:32am | Copycat does good work, Doc, assuming d20's your cup of tea. RL bit me in the posterior, copycat, but as soon as I get a moment free, you can find your work in the d20 Conversions project. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 August 29, 2008 - 1:11pm | welcome Doc, Well, Star Law may not throw ya in the clink for rules changes but they definitley might spy on seditious posted threads with the UPFS Daedalus. Which is currently in orbit around Gran Quivera and busy watching free viral vidlinks after hacking the UPF com-net. So you'll probably be free to post any proposed rule changes or house rules you like.  Welcome! And yes the 80's Totally Rule! |
 August 29, 2008 - 3:11pm | I guess that it is hard to fly a space ship. Not everyone would know how to fly one. Sorry Wang, around here your trying to convince the converted. At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
August 29, 2008 - 3:31pm | P.S. That is cool that you made a character with your daughter. My son really took to it also. It is an easy system to learn. I like the idea that it is not level based. At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
 August 29, 2008 - 11:41pm | Hey bro - Great to see you! Your blog is great. You reviewed my article on creative refereeing some months ago. Way cool. Thanks again. Yes, the controversy surrounding the Pilot skills is very disliked around here. Most people modify it or do away with it. A good proposal, put forward by Aramis (I think) suggested that the skill reqs get halved, rounded up, with a minimum of 2. Myself, I am cool with it. Why, you may ask? Well, let's just say that sometimes it's the journey that is the most fun, not the destination. Welcome aboard! -IL |
 August 30, 2008 - 1:05am | After having been involved as both a player and a GM over the last several years in what I would refer to as a micro-managed RPGs, we won't mention any names (WotC), I've come to enjoy the simplicity and sometimes vagueness of the rules in TSR's games. I feel it makes it easier to keep the game flowing and it is easier to morph it into something more likeable by players and GMs alike. The game dosen't get slowed down by a "rules discussion" on some conflicting rule in one or more of twenty plus rule books on how a situation should be handled. With TSR's games you ussually didn't watch your game disitergrate into a rules debate as the players would forget that the GM has final say in all rulings. |
August 30, 2008 - 11:38am | They won't forget once the GM tells them to look at the specific passage in the book what says that. With their nose between the pages. WHAP! "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
