 April 24, 2008 - 6:08am | During the brief Site shutdown I visited a thread at SF.org that was discussing the general characteisitcs of UPF and Sathar ship design and recognition. While as a matter of strict game canon I think this was a good idea for standardized ship construction but as a creative referee of a long standing campaign I think that these characteristics are too limiting. For example (I dont remember the list verbatim) but one point I thought was rather silly was that all Sathar Ships use Spherical command modules and have engine nacelles mounted on pylon stalks. Ok, as a matter of original canon this is true, however I do not think that the Sathar have a monopoly on the use of Spherical module design or engine nacelles. The use of Spherical module design is universal and a very efficent use of space. Personally while I feel that having a standardized ship recognition is a good thing it should not be limited by a race specific geometry. Size, color scheme, technology, are all factors at work in starship design recognition. Obviously, common ship design would depend a lot on what shipyard(s) currently have the contract for designing and building the ships that are in current fleet service. However, as those ships are decommissioned with age, damage, or obsolete tech, new designs and configurations are bound to be seen in successive generations. In the recently submitted chits which are based on my warship designs contructed by a private mega-corp shipyard for use by UPF (or the highest bidder) a spherical module design is the construction norm employed by this shipyard. Now, I recognize that these are most definitely alternative non-canon designs they are based on the canon ship archetypes and concepts. In the future I am will be working on some Sathar designs that do not rely on the use of outboard exterior engine nacelles as these tactically provide a distinct target of oportunity. If ship shape and color was the sole design factor for recognition then the UPF would be in big trouble if the Sathar decided to build vessels that used stocky cylindrical designs with angular features and aft mounted engines. Imagine that conversation..."uhhh captain, that destoyer with the federation configuration, well it's is painted red and has established a target lock on us." As ship configuration often depends a lot on function and efficent use of hull space I think that we should take a page from our own millitary history. During the WWII era a distant vessel on the ocean horizon were just grey chunks of metal in the water until it could be identified friend or foe. Coloration, Flags, engine design, (and later during the cold war engine sound detected by sonar), weapon battery placement, intercepted radio traffic/code, draft in the water, etc. all went into consideration in identifying an enemy vessel. In the SF universe, with the exisitence of powerful detection technology, identification transponders, energy emission signatures, comm traffic, and even analysis of material construction are far more reliable means of ship recognition then a glimmering reflective hull silhouetted in the black of deep space. On a humorous note and in the words of one my friends' PC, "Don't matter if its shaped like cigar or an egg, if it shoots at 'ya it ain't friendly". |
 April 24, 2008 - 6:19am | Interesting point. In the d20 Future book they tried to build ships based on race characterists. For example the Vrusk ships the bridge looked like bug eyes. In the SF Universe it appears there are three classes of ship design:
..but why wouldn't each planet has a specific design type? Or each cooperation? Any more thoughts on this? :-) |
April 24, 2008 - 6:35am | I have not seen the D20 concepts. However I do like the idea of the vrusk engineered vessels having a insect like appearance. I assume, that UPF canon ship designs were probably a collaborative effort blending features contributed by all member races...ie humans may have designed components in the hull as well as vrusk, dral, yaz etc. But I agree that each planet or star system may have individual ship configurations too. For example a vrusk-an assult scout may use the standard UPF configuration of triangular wings struts with engine pods and a conical primary hull but it might possibly be inverted with the wings/engines in front shaped like a dragon-fly or have buggy features to it  |
 April 24, 2008 - 6:39am | I could see the UPF SpaceFleet having a standard ship design for each type/class of vessel. That way, when Ensign wOOt transfers from one destroyer to another within Fleet, he knows where the brig would be. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
April 24, 2008 - 6:55am | LOL......ensign woot would probably be esorted by the ships security/marines to the brig and not just wander down there by himself at least without looking at one of the convienently placed ship maps on the wall first. I agree that UPF ship general layouts ...ie where is that darn bridge located at..would be standard in placement but the shape of the exterior and interior maybe very different from ship manufacturer to ship manufacturer and from class to class. So while the brig maybe in the same general place or deck it maybe round instead of square. So ensign woot has a little more leg room in for a better chemical toilet and larger cott or maybe not if the accomodations are very spartan. Speaking of brigs wouldn't that be an unused storage locker on an assualt scout. Great feedback! |
April 24, 2008 - 11:14am | Very good points AZ. I like that line of thought. I am just looking at it from a government contract point of view. Or at least looking at the vehicles that the US Army has. For instance: a 2-1/2 cargo truck manufactured by AM General in 1968 will be identicle to the same truck made by Kaiser Jeep that same year. However the truck made by Stuedabaker in 1953 will stand out due to the years of changes that have been made. To include outward apperance, load capabilities, and engine performance (to say the least.) Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
April 24, 2008 - 1:28pm | I agree RR, but lets take a similar example from the air force. When the contract for the F/A 18 was being considered two very radically different aircraft were proposed for the same job..the Hornet and the F-20 Tiger Shark (which looked a lot like an F-5E on steroids). Eventually as we all know the Hornet won the contract and is currently in service today. However the important point is that while function should be strict to canon, unless creating a new ship class or custom design, form and appearance should be open ended to lend more freedom and excitement to game development. While the hummer and jeep do pretty much the same job they most certainly don't look the same and I am willing to bet that while both use an internal combustion engine and have similar parts they don't follow the same configuration. It's that innovation that makes a dyson a dyson and a hoover a hoover. |
April 24, 2008 - 3:45pm | I understand your points much better now. It looks like we have been on the same wavelength. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
April 24, 2008 - 5:10pm | Yes, upon checking the regulations in my UPF tact manual I see that yes in fact ensign woot is to immediately report to the brig of any UPF vessel including assault scouts....lol |
April 24, 2008 - 5:43pm | Make that MODIFIED assault scout buds  I report to the brig to visit you two punks. ;-) |
April 24, 2008 - 7:28pm | Make that MODIFIED assault scout buds I report to the brig to visit you two punks. ;-) Thats 'casue we modified the brig into a makeshift pub.  gotta toast in the new crew.Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
February 26, 2011 - 10:28am | Some of the alternate Ship Configurations from my campaign world, enjoy! (Update The images were removed a while ago bc of storage space issues. However, If anyone ever wants to see these you can PM me and I'll be happy to send them to you) |
April 24, 2008 - 7:46pm | nice. Interesting look. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 April 25, 2008 - 1:13pm | Make that MODIFIED assault scout buds I report to the brig to visit you two punks. ;-) Thats 'casue we modified the brig into a makeshift pub. gotta toast in the new crew.Wouldn't an ensign command an assault scout? "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 April 25, 2008 - 3:50pm | I live in house that looks like everyother stinking house along a 5 mile radius. It's because its cheaper to mass produce the same parts over and over (no new specs, no new architects, no new materials, no new design trials, etc.).
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 April 25, 2008 - 3:58pm | "Wouldn't an ensign command an assault scout?" You mean Junior Lieutenant? Fleet Lieutenants command assault scouts. Larry can fire some guns though, or astrogate or maybe lead the boarding party. I don't know if I would want Larry leading my boarding party, though. Or firing guns... Or astrogating...  |
April 25, 2008 - 7:54pm | I live in house that looks like everyother stinking house along a 5 mile radius. It's because its cheaper to mass produce the same parts over and over (no new specs, no new architects, no new materials, no new design trials, etc.). Did you actually read the article? While I respect your opinion, However, I think in SF universe were just a little far beyond looking out the porthole seeing a silhoutte in the distance and just shooting a torpedo at what ever round long object crosses our path. Otherwise, all of the SF canon frieghters would be shot to pieces entering UPF space, as if you look at their oblique profile with rounded command module and nacelle engine stalks looks a lot like a Sathar Frigate. Thats what transponders and long range detection sensors are for and INT check rolls are for. And if you settle for medicority in ship design medicority is what you'll get, I think I'll continue to think outside the box and the cookie cutter ship designs. Lets not forget that there is no ambient light in space unless your very close to a reflective surface such as a planet near a star or near a star itself. So everything in space is just dark objects passing each other in the night. Truthfully ships could look like just about anything. You could put a cube in space (oh wait a minute I think one TV show did that already, oh thats right and they all looked the same too). Seems to me that If the Discovery rolled in UPF space, an advanced space farring culture would probably be wise enough not to shoot at an object just becuase it was round or else every AG ship would burn upon entering a UPF system. Thats Like saying the US navy should shoot down any freighter with three smoke stacks instead of two. Honestly I think we can move on from the argument that canon ship shape is the only way to go. LOL But, I am mature enough to agree to disagree as well. In my campaign I'll keep on adding and innovating and keeping my players happy and excited about every new adventure. Game On! Thanks for the input |
April 25, 2008 - 7:56pm | PS. Have you seen the new Assault Scouts designs in the GDJ's CGI art section. They rock! I love the old design but I'll take one of those new flashy models any day too! |
April 25, 2008 - 8:41pm | I don't know if I would want Larry leading my boarding party, though. Or firing guns... Or astrogating... Doesnt the first one in the boarding party usally refferred to as "Meatshield"? 
Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
April 26, 2008 - 8:38am | Why use meatshields when you have robots? "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 26, 2008 - 10:50am | Junior Lieutenant? That's sounds like something Soviet. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 26, 2008 - 12:27pm | Well Will, there is no ensign in the canon. Not in the UPF, at least. I'm sure there are militia ensigns, though. |
April 26, 2008 - 1:45pm | I know, ImpLord. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
February 26, 2011 - 10:33am | Anyone finding this old thread can find the evolution of this discussion in my Classic SFKH Inspired Starship Project |
 February 28, 2011 - 7:27pm | I like to adjust the configuration based on era. Older ships have a more vintage sci-fi look about them, while newer ships would have that "wet-navy" layout do to the advent of anti-gravity technology. General designs evolve like: Retro-styled rocketship -> Sathar-styled ship -> UPF-styled ship -> Star Wars-styled ship. I like to make Dralasite designed ships look bulbous, with lots of tight transport tubes inside. These tubes a ribbed, so they can crawl swiftly though them. Their workstations look like a 70's-styled pitted seat, surrounded by a wrap-around controls and screens. Vrusk designed ships are like Dralasite ships, but more bug-like, and with large round grated corridors that can be walked-on by Vrusks at any angle. Their workstations look like a workout bench, with a U-shaped control set (they have a wider field of vision, with highly articulated arms). Yazirian designed ships have a wide vertical wind-tunnel that connects to all rooms along the walls, with vine-like netting to climb on. The power of the draft can send a gliding Yazirian or paragliding Human upwards quite swiftly, but proper maneuvering allows for a controlled descent. Their workstations look like a Human one, but with cubby holes to keep their slack glider wings in. They prefer to sleep in hammocks, then the cubby holes used by humans. Ifshnit designed ships are modeled after human ships, but smaller. Their workstations are cubby holes built into the floor. Osakar ships are a lot like Dralasite ships, but they tend to barrow designs - often in a garish way - from all other races. Their workstations are stools in front of a pair of highly elaborate key pads - their complex system of language requires keys that works like a musical instrument. The Humma have yet to design ships uniquely theirs - they just pull the seats from other types of ships. I like to make Sathar ships look like Zentraedi ships from Robotech. Their workstations are like cribs, with joysticks for the lower limbs, and computer controls for the upper limbs. They sleep in liquid-filled pods. Mechanon ships have a highly angled, boxy look about them. They have no personal areas - rec room, quarters, head - as they have no need for them. Its just all work area, storage bays, and exposed utilities. They dont need to rest, and they can link-up to their ship with a data port, so workstations are not that important. |
 March 1, 2011 - 7:17pm | RE: Malcadon's Ifshnit ship/ control station design I can imagine that the control station, though in a cubby hole in the floor, actually sits above an escape pod. if the bail out is called for the whole work station drops down a meter or so and the escape pod seals up above the ifshnit's head and then blasts sideways out of the hull. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 May 1, 2011 - 7:00pm | General tendency of architectural preference, for the purposes of satisfying divergent biologically influenced aesthetic experience, does not require a complete paradigm limitation to be imposed on the professional engineering vocation as a strict dogmatic environment, but can still allow for the development of universal objective functionality, within the overall subjective style. Just because the species thinks one ship looks pretty, doesn't mean they don't understand the appreciation of a more utilitarian design. Just because I put spoilers on sportscars, doesn't mean they have to be put on trucks. Malcadon summed it up well, as far as a general overview of style, as I think the aesthetic tendencies are. Only immediate divergences, I see: Ifsni ships to be somewhat Disk and/or Tube oriented, with the hallmark compromise being a giant torus. Humanships to be somewhat Rocket-Classic and NASA-Chic. Decks designed on a vertical-to-thrust is nearly exclusive, numbering isn't always uniform. Vruskanship designers to be somewhat excited about using platonic-solids, with variations of the Hexagon-ideal. Designed on a aft/bottom-to-fore/top deck numbering, but vertical layout is slightly more lax than Human and Yazirian. Piloting seats are cushioned tubes that are either, griped by the legs, or crawled into, and may be ridden forward or backward in relation to thrust. Yazi own few shipyards, and set up most for smaller hull sizes and planetary defence craft, effectively making them the first source for trans-atmospheric space superiority fighters, assault shuttles, and privateers, where they prefer 'glide wings' and lots of menacing styles. Larger ships are built to the contract specs of other corporations, when yard space is possible, and have no trademark aesthetic. Almost all considerations for layout are compareable to human designs. Mechani come in two camps, those that are effectively Borg-like and build simple Boxes and Balls, of whatever size suits their need, and the 'Pinocchios' that are usually only able to build replications of these 'perfect volumetrics' out of whatever they scrounge from the fringes of frontier settlements. Some other factions, such as 'Loreites' on a semi-mystical quest, seeking an origin and a home-world in the ruins of the precursors, or 'Hugnaughts' that espouse some philosophical attachment to the ideals of The One, The First, and The Jordi, might have more or less trouble building anything of decent size, being more anti-social separatists. Merchani are not always requiring an accelerated gravity oriented hull, and can be comfortable in free-fall for longer durations. Osakarans end up with ships looking like modern-art sculptures, as they are effectively works of art in progress, and constantly being adapted, to include the next amazingly-new-thing that strikes a chord with these biologically eclectic aesthetics. No two Osakaran Captains will have the exact same ship design, modularity being the only common feature built into the design from the shipyard. Vertical to thrust layout may still be required in initial philosophy, but numbering and orientations of extensions to the base ship can boggle the mind. Dralasite spot-on, add the memory-metal I mentioned in another post, and go. Designs that do not conform to the fore/outboard - aft/inboard, vertical to velocity, accelerated gravity, deck layout, are possible, since these issues are not as severe to the Dralasite biological structure, but are still in common use for the consideration of other species, and useful for many other reasons. Though rotating hydroponics drums are the more common solution for on-board farming and extending life-support bio-systems. Sathar are capable of anything, age, diversity, and scope of dominance means that whatever they throw at you for the moment, still only represents less than a blink of the whole, and they have a technological advantage of inheritance, that even out-does their own capability of design and construction. Yeah, the Mac-tech Robo-cross Xenotraders is a good example overall. Including designs that do not conform to the fore/outboard - aft/inboard, vertical to velocity, accelerated gravity, deck layout. The Humma and other such non-interstellar species are either not making anything. or haven't settled onto an aesthetic yet. These will use whatever is available and adapt it to their use. I don't hold to a uniform dispersal of technologies between the races, nor do I hold that the diversity of biological sensory experience between species is irrelevant to their tendency of aesthetic preference. And most certainly does the extreme variation on physical form require largely different needs for internal composition. A Human, a Vrusk, a Dralasite and a Yazirian simply can not use the same acceleration couch comfortably, their structure requires differences in pressure and support to be properly ergonomic. Put more specifically, a Human skeleton will never be confused for a Yazi skeleton, they are both far too unique to their own evolutionary requirements. Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 May 1, 2011 - 5:40pm | Two thoughts on topic: As the ship technology for all SF races is essentially the same (atomic, ion or chemical drive, decks perpendicular to line of travel, life support, computers, weapon systems, etc.), what a particular races' ship looks like is (to me anyway) not a top priority. The other point I'd offer is even with today's military tech, they have IFF (immediate friend or foe) scanning. If a vessel is detected that is approaching and NOT transmitting a friendly IFF, it doesn't matter what it looks like; it's BLAMO time! My SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
May 1, 2011 - 7:25pm | Actually, observing todays ergonomics, future ergonomics for the core four would probably result in the design of an adjustable one seat fits all acceleration seats/couches. One that can be laid flat for vrusk to starp into and folded down and widened for drals. Humans and Yaz could pretty much use the same settings with some minor adjustments. Having seperate seating for each would be wasteful in federation starships. The ergonomics would just have to be core-four friendly compliant However I could definitely see work stations and seating as modular, adjustable, and adaptable for each users needs. Now of course all races will have to adjust a little, for example Vrusk who are acustom to round shaped hand grips may have to get use to leavers and handles. |
May 2, 2011 - 12:08am | I was worried that that blanket statement would cause such a reaction, I will attempt to clarify. I am sure that a seat could be adapted, with considerable effort and pressure on the part of the engineer, to be used by multiple races. I don't see it as worth the effort, when the seat, or an entire module, could be made interchangeable upon need, with far less research and construction effort. I do question just how far such a theoretical multi ergonomic design could be pushed for equal comfort for multiple species, when it is difficult enough to design for multiple races on just this one planet. Which is where this entire discussion would breakdown into subjective theory and belief on all sides. however it does matter that the structural differences between races, gender, and age, all using the same basic frame, does cause problems with universal ergonomics within the human species. A Human skeleton will never be confused for a Yazi skeleton, they are both far too unique to their own evolutionary requirements. This means that differences in preasure distributions between the two structures, are even more radical than that between genders, ages, or races. Vrusk and Dralasite are even more so by multiples of that difference, and it still remains that a Vrusk will never be comfortable in a Dralasite pilot-pit, and a Dral will never be comfortable wrapped around a Vrusk cylinder-couch, but neither would wantto give up their own comfort for some other uncomfortable hybrid. Each of the Core Fore have their own ships, their own habitation requirements, and their own worlds, for just these reasons. Even on those worlds that have mixed populations, neighborhoods are largely segregated. Just like the Human Races on Earth, why would it be any easier between a difference as found between a flying-lemur and a caterpillar-ant? The other side of this is the question, which of the Core Species is constructing the ship, which was the reason for showing the differences in ships. A Vrusk ship, built for a Vrusk crew, has no need to install Dralasite tubes, and a Dralasite has no need to apply for work aboard a Vrusk ship, they have their own. Yazi and Humans co-opt the same designs easily, Dralasite can learn to adapt to whatever form is common fairly easily, but Vrusk, are largely segregated to their own requirements. This suits most Humans (as stated in the books) and Yazi (a logical extrapolation that was expanded on these boards, and dropped into a project once) well enough, as they don't have to cope with the issues of Human Arachnophobia (Some Humans have problems disassociating the insect form with predetor) and Yazi Arachnovenator (Some Yazi have a problem disassociating the insect form, and some other animals, with prey). Plenty of reasons to have separate ships, and replaceable modular controls. Plenty of reasons things arn't 'cleanly homoginized' in every corner of the Frontier. My favorite reason is I don't like the idea of making the Core-Four into 'rubber-suit aliens', when they have the potential and foundation, to be as deep as that found in the genre literature, rather than as shallow as that found in Star-Trek. But yes, I still think that some ships are given to a multi-species crew, and are adapted to accommodate, I just feel that there is good elements of play that are often overlooked in doing so. Anyway, just my thoughts on it, for those that have called for a more diverse approach, and would like to have the rational to base that diversity on. It's easier to just say, everyone gets along all happy, and everything works for everybody as designed without problems, and nobody ever suffers xenophobia, greed, anger, jealousy, poverty, or any reason to do anything other than breath, work, eat, and occasionally breed, after all the robotics technology in the frontier can cover everything else, and all the shipyards are automated, building robot drones, to reduce the risk to those precious lives, who are enlightened enough to only seek physical pleasures from their own gender, and keep populations levels in check, with no need for a debt-based currency economy, because we really just want to replicate the Greek Ideal Philosophers Utopia in space, and sit around asking "so... what do you want to do today?", until the space master builds another robotic minotaur to go behead. but thats another subject..... ignore my digress into socio-polotics, and manifest destiny, please.... Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
