 March 29, 2008 - 8:56pm | New Skill System Proposal There are nine professional skill areas (PSAs) describing all potential aspects of a character's knowledge and ability. None of these PSAs are skills unto themselves, but instead a categorical collection of related skills. For example, you won't have a military skill. You'll have a melee weapons skill, or a demolitions skill. More Skills. Although there exists a list of skills under each PSA, this list is not exhaustive. Players are encouraged to develop their own ideas for skills to complete their character conceptions. Referees must approve the skill and the PSA under which it falls. Different players may even have the same skill under different skill areas if the Referee allows, representing different types of skill training. For example, Sarah wants her character to be good at data encryption. She looks throught he skill lists and can't specifically find that ability. She suggests it should fall under the Agent PSA. The Referee likes the idea and approves. Robert's character is a Military specialist and also wants skill with data encryption. He asks if he can have a data encryption skill under his Military PSA and the Referee allows it. In the end, they are both the same skill, but the training was derived from a different source. When decrypting military data, Robert's character is the obvious choice, though really they are both able to perform the skill the same. Character Generation All players must decide which PSA is primary to their character concept, and which two are secondary to it. List one PSA with a "P:" next to it. List two PSAs with an "S:" next to them. All seven other PSAs are tertiary to your character concept, and need not be listed on your sheet. Your character will begin with two level 1 skills. One of which must be from your character's Primary PSA. The second can be from any skill area desired. For example, your character's primary PSA is Military, and your secondary PSAs are Tech and Agent. You begin with two level 1 skills. One of which must come from your Military PSA, the other may come from any PSA (Military, Tech, Agent, or any other). You select Beam Weapons level 1 from Military, and Robotics level 1 from Tech. Character Advancement Instead of keying the costs of individual skills to the skill area itself (as it was done in Alpha Dawn rules), the costs are keyed to your PSA selections, rewarding a solid concept. Some people are good at learning sciences, some are good at learning languages... Some are natural born pilots. Whichever PSA is chosen as your character's primary one will have the easiest experience point progression. Your secondary PSAs will advance slightly slower, and all other skills will advance slowest still. After earning experience points, players may spend them on new skills or to advance skills they already have. The cost of the new skill level depends on whether the PSA which governs that skill was important to the character concept (i.e. was selected as either Primary or Secondary to your concept). The table below summarizes experience point costs. Table: Experience Point costs
Example: Logan is quite good at technical things. He can't change that about himself. Tech PSA is Primary to his concept. He's quite knowledgeable in many obscure areas and therefore Scholar PSA is secondary to his concept. Finally, he's a fair artist and that creativity often gives him insight to troubleshoot where hard facts fail him. Artist PSA is also Secondary to his concept. All other skill areas are tertiary to his concept. Skill Checks Where are the subskills? Where are my character's chances of success listed? The existing Alpha Dawn skill system requires lists and tables to be present at the gaming table, something that has been an antiquated idea since the early 1990s in role-playing evolution. This skill system takes its mechanics from the way Alpha Dawn expressed chance of success in combat. This helps keep your ability scores relevant even when testing one of your character's skills. To make a skill check, use 1/2 your character's ability score relevant to the situation, then add 10% per skill level. This applies to any roll having anything to do with that skill. There is no list of "subskills" defining what you can do with a skill: if you have a Survival skill (from the Scout PSA) for example, you get to make any roll having to do with survival in the same way. Modifiers apply based on any situational condition the Referee decides applies. Example: A robotics expert (someone with skill levels in Robotics, a skill in the Tech PSA) would be using his Intuition coupled with robotics skill when guessing where an access panel might be located on an attacking alien robotic technology, but if he were repairing it, he might be using Logic. There may even exist situations where the robotics skill could be used in conjunction with Dexterity or even Persuasion (haggling over the price of robotics parts with a chop shop owner?). In each of these cases, the player would use half his relavent ability score added to 10 times his skill level. Unskilled Skill Checks If you are asked to make a skill roll for a skill that is from either your primary secondary PSAs, yet you have no skill level in that skill, you may (if the Referee allows, based on the situation) use 1/2 your attribute but add nothing for skill level. This is called an Unskilled Skill Check. If you are asked to make a skill check for a skill you don't possess and is one that is from a PSA tertiary to your character concept, you can only succeed on a 01-05 (which is an automatic success in alpha dawn rules). Unskilled skill checks can be abused by players, and Referees are to be the final arbiter in such situations. For example: Uwan is a yazirian fleeing for his life from natives on a dangerous world he's gotten himself stranded on. As he rounds a corner in the canyon, he sees a place he thinks he can quickly climb up to a higher level. He needs to do this before the natives round the canyon, or they'll see him climbing and he'll be in trouble. His player, Fred, is told to make a climbing check using his Reaction Speed. His character's primary PSA is Scout, but he never thought of devoting any experience points to a climbing skill. He is allowed to use 1/2 his Reaction Speed score and use 0 as his skill level. Since his Reaction Speed is only 45, he has a 23% chance. He fails, and is half-way up the canyon wall when natives round the corner, spears in hand. Fred decides that after the adventure, he'll buy a level of climbing if his character survives! The Skill Areas Rather than provide an exhaustive list of skills, this system provides nine categories of professional skill. Individual skills are to be drawn from these PSAs. After each skill name is an example of the types of situations where that skill might come into play. This is meant to be a short example, not a comprehensive list of all situations.
Standard Rules Many skills from the tech skill area involve repairing equipment. These will use the standard repair rule from Alpha Dawn rulebook. Application of medical science can use the standard rules from Alpha Dawn as well, or a simpler mechanic: a successful Medic skill roll will heal a number of d10 equal to the medic's skill level, but require a like number of hours of recovery (thus a 3rd level medic might roll 3d10 and get 15... meaning he heals 15 STA if the patient rests 15 hours afterwards). If the full period of rest isn't taken, the healing will be halved. Finishing notes: Effort was made to allow this skill system to integrate seamlessly into existing campaigns. For example, all thirteen of the existing Star Frontiers Alpha Dawn skills are mentioned here, so converting a character is seamless. However, since there are more skills (and PSAs) than the original game, Referees might allow starting player characters to have Level 1 in a third skill drawn only from a tertiary PSA, just to round out the character and add more diversity. The defining factors about this skill system are the following:
3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
 April 2, 2008 - 8:19pm | You're missing the point I think... or I'm misrepresenting it... I was forgetting myself. I was thinking along the lines of it as a skill set, instead of each listed item in the list as individual skills.The same can be said for the grouping of most skill areas... for example, being an effective Computer expert doesn't give you a hoot of a chance to be a technician or a robotics engineer. They're all completely different fields of technology, completely unrelated. The only thing that groups them logically is their relationship to Technology. And explain to me how being a Martial Artists makes you have any better chance at being a Demolitions expert? That's why I grouped all these forms of creativity and expression into a category. Realistic? No. But it's organized for game mechanic sake. I agree with you in principal - but for a game I think it works quite well. I agree that all the implementation of these forms of creativity are very different. But I also think that being a creative, artistic character should help your character learn any of these forms of expression, art, or entertainment better than an uncreative character. I'm rewarding the character concept, nothing more. Thus I think they're grouped fairly logically. If you want your character to be an effective professional painter, you select Artist for a primary or secondary PSA and select Visual Art as a skill. Just because it's inexpensive for you to learn sculpting, doesn't mean you have to spend a single xp on it, and you'll be no better at it than someone with Artist as a Tertiary skill area. However, if you wanted to also be able to sculpt, you'd take on structural art as a skill as well, spending XP on it. Because you chose a creative path, it's easier for you to pick up despite being different skills. If later you wanted to take up singing - you could. Even though it's totally different, it's a form of expression and so the cost is cheap for your character. That doesn't mean all artists are singers - I'm rewarding your concept, not stating that all artists of every form of expression are identical. I'm not going to make every form of art a separate skill area. |
April 2, 2008 - 8:26pm | I feel pretty comfy with the lists we've come up with, though Information Gathering is a neat idea I'm considering adding, I'm just not sure which PSA it fits best in. All that's left otherwise is Linguistics... Is there a complete list of "official" standard languages for Star Frontiers Alpha Dawn games? Is it just as simple as <racename> language plus Pan-Galactic? Perhaps that's how I should break it down. "Human Languages" "Yazirian Languages" "Vrusk Languages" and "Dralasite Languages" plus "Pan-Galactic"? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
April 2, 2008 - 8:46pm | Information Gathering should either be agent or scribe. |
April 2, 2008 - 8:50pm | Information Gathering should either be agent or scribe. I was thinking to put it under Agent if we call it Information Gathering... and it would also include surveilance. Or we could put it under Scholar and call it Research/Gather Information. Both would work great.3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
April 2, 2008 - 8:52pm | Information Gathering should either be agent or scribe. I was thinking to put it under Agent if we call it Information Gathering... and it would also include surveilance. Or we could put it under Scholar and call it Research/Gather Information. Both would work great.Um... Agent already has the Detective skill... "(rolls apply to listening, spotting clues, searching for weapons, reading body language, etc.)" I could just add "gathering information" to that list and let it fold into Detective skill under the Agent PSA... sound good? Researching unknown information is part of each skill of Scholar already. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
April 2, 2008 - 9:05pm | By the way, I'm helping with this just to be helping someone move their concept along, but I'm still missing the point on why a tertiary concept is needed. I know how it's played, I've seen you repeat it several times. It's just that I don't get why. To me, there's your primary concept and then there's everything else. The only difference I see in the tertiary concept is that you can't use those skills untrained (If I understood it correctly), which doesn't make sense to me. So far, the tertiary concept is the only real difference I'm seeing from the original system, other than there's more PSA's. You still have skills and subskills, except that you seem to be declaring subskills non-existant while they are in fact still existant. For instance. You have the Scout PSA, the Survival skill set, and then all the little subskills: procuring shelter, hunting, tracking, building fire, etc. To me, it seems to complicate the game further, rather than simplify it. Because, now, rather than having a clearly defined set of subskills, we have to identify and guess at what does and doesn't fall under a skill, which of our skill sets it best falls under and if we have to pay for it or not. Open-ended is great as long as there is a clearly defined set of rules about what goes where. It's actually making me appreciate class systems more in that they have a predefined set of skills, feats, and whatnot. I don't have to worry about what I do and don't know, because I already know what I do and don't know. |
April 2, 2008 - 10:18pm | By the way, I'm helping with this just to be helping someone move their concept along, but I'm still missing the point on why a tertiary concept is needed. I know how it's played, I've seen you repeat it several times. It's just that I don't get why. To me, there's your primary concept and then there's everything else. The only difference I see in the tertiary concept is that you can't use those skills untrained (If I understood it correctly), which doesn't make sense to me. So far, the tertiary concept is the only real difference I'm seeing from the original system, other than there's more PSA's. You still have skills and subskills, except that you seem to be declaring subskills non-existant while they are in fact still existant. For instance. You have the Scout PSA, the Survival skill set, and then all the little subskills: procuring shelter, hunting, tracking, building fire, etc. To me, it seems to complicate the game further, rather than simplify it. Because, now, rather than having a clearly defined set of subskills, we have to identify and guess at what does and doesn't fall under a skill, which of our skill sets it best falls under and if we have to pay for it or not. Open-ended is great as long as there is a clearly defined set of rules about what goes where. It's actually making me appreciate class systems more in that they have a predefined set of skills, feats, and whatnot. I don't have to worry about what I do and don't know, because I already know what I do and don't know. There are no subskills. Yes, there is a Scout PSA. Yes, you might have a Survival skill. But you don't list any subskills because those are just examples of where the skill roll would come into play. Anything involving Survival would use that same skill roll. The "Tertiary" category is so that we can give an xp advancement cost to those skills which fall under categories outside the scope of your selected concept. Having I basically added a Secondary category, I didn't add a Tertiary category, since Tertiary represents all those things outside your character concept's selected skill areas. Adding Secondary was a way to differentiate characters. In the existing system, every Military PSA character is pretty much alike. This way, you can have three selected skill areas to round out your concept. I don't see how it further complicates it. There is a skill area that is primary to your concept, a couple that are secondary, then there's everything else. I just use the word "tertiary" instead of the phrase "everything else" -- but you said you weren't confused by the word "tertiary" a few posts back so I was leaving it in (you were the one I was referring to when I said some people were confused by the concept, but I was being polite in saying "some people" instead). I can't see how it's more complicated in this system: the Referee calls for a Survival roll using Stamina (or whatever the situation calls for), you make it or fail it, simple. No tables or lists of subskills, no looking up percent chance, nothing. There is no guessing. The Referee is the one who decides which skill applies to a situation, not the player. I'm sorry my thread has filled you with such animosity that you feel more attracted to class-based systems. If you're in the majority, I'll close this thread and throw out all of my work. If you're in the minority, someone please let me know. If your post was to be constructive or ask for further explanation, I'm happy to give/provide/listen. Your post, however, instead seemed like a bothered rant against the concept of my article proposal and frankly wasn't constructive. I know you'll say your intention was otherwise, but I'm offering this criticism of your post... the flavor of it was basically condescending and dismissive: by the way, this is all so annoying that it makes me want to go play a different game but I'm going along with it for your sake, you pathetic little uninspired, unenlightened fool. If I'm just being defensive, please someone slap it outta me cuz I don't wanna be like dat :-) 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
April 2, 2008 - 11:11pm | There are no subskills. Yes, there is a Scout PSA. Yes, you might have a Survival skill. But you don't list any subskills because those are just examples of where the skill roll would come into play. Anything involving Survival would use that same skill roll. Alright. I guess, then, they just need some description more than just roll it for this, that, that, this, etc.The "Tertiary" category is so that we can give an xp advancement cost to those skills which fall under categories outside the scope of your selected concept. Having I basically added a Secondary category, I didn't add a Tertiary category, since Tertiary represents all those things outside your character concept's selected skill areas. Adding Secondary was a way to differentiate characters. In the existing system, every Military PSA character is pretty much alike. This way, you can have three selected skill areas to round out your concept. I don't see how it further complicates it. There is a skill area that is primary to your concept, a couple that are secondary, then there's everything else. I just use the word "tertiary" instead of the phrase "everything else" -- but you said you weren't confused by the word "tertiary" a few posts back so I was leaving it in (you were the one I was referring to when I said some people were confused by the concept, but I was being polite in saying "some people" instead). I was correcting TerlObar who said that some people didn't understand what "tertiary" MEANS. I understand what it means. I just didn't understand why it's needed. Yes, by providing a third expense under "tertiary", it is a third or "tertiary" category or concept.I can't see how it's more complicated in this system: the Referee calls for a Survival roll using Stamina (or whatever the situation calls for), you make it or fail it, simple. No tables or lists of subskills, no looking up percent chance, nothing. There is no guessing. The Referee is the one who decides which skill applies to a situation, not the player. I don't recall saying or implying anything like that. I gave no indication that it was "pathetic", "little" or "uninspired". If you're feeling that way, you might ask why, but I'm sure the answer won't be about what I said. No animosity. Just confusion. I'll back out. I have a feeling that it's just going to escalate if I say anything else. My post was not a rant, but a request for information with a clarification.I'm sorry my thread has filled you with such animosity that you feel more attracted to class-based systems. If you're in the majority, I'll close this thread and throw out all of my work. If you're in the minority, someone please let me know. If your post was to be constructive or ask for further explanation, I'm happy to give/provide/listen. Your post, however, instead seemed like a bothered rant against the concept of my article proposal and frankly wasn't constructive. I know you'll say your intention was otherwise, but I'm offering this criticism of your post... the flavor of it was basically condescending and dismissive: by the way, this is all so annoying that it makes me want to go play a different game but I'm going along with it for your sake, you pathetic little uninspired, unenlightened fool. If I'm just being defensive, please someone slap it outta me cuz I don't wanna be like dat :-) |
April 2, 2008 - 11:20pm | By the way, the only thing I meant by my comment was that I understand now how having a clear cut set of skills rules is so important. It was not a commentary toward your person. With class systems, you simply choose your character concept in a class, and then you choose the skills (and feats as the case may be) that complement it and that define your character. |
April 2, 2008 - 11:42pm | I'll ammend my descriptions and additional texts after the lists are complete. I'll try to make sure it's clear that those short one-liner descriptions are meant as examples as to what kind of rolls the skill would apply to. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
April 3, 2008 - 12:08am | Corjay, I'm not asking you to back out... I value your opinion (and everyone else's on this site) as long as it's constructive. But the wording of your post seemed less than constructive, that's all. Maybe it was the wording, and wasn't meant to sound that way, but whatever the reason it's how I took it (and still take it when I re-read it). I'm not saying back out - I'm just letting you know how your wording comes across sometimes, that's all. When people let me know my wording offends them, I'm the first to apologize for the bad feelings - even if I didn't mean anything the way in which it was taken. k? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
 April 3, 2008 - 2:31am | Wow, I am glad I self-edited my last post to minimize any aggravation. Corjay, I do not intend to offend you, but I would also say that often your communication style is not well received, and this is further evidence of such. I value your contributions greatly, but I think you chase off a great number of individuals who might contribute... out of a perceived fear that they might be subjected to this kind of condescending replies... again, just an observation of one who hopes to help iron out these differences... no offense meant. <insert witty comment here> |
 April 3, 2008 - 4:02am | About tertiary skill picking: I like them because with them you can create more rounded characters. If I take myself as an exemple : My university schooling is in Fine Arts - Graphics / My profession is : Computer graphics (magazine layouts)... ...but few people know that (now more people know!) between the age of 16 and 18 I was a member of the Canadian Militia (ntl guards). I'm fully trained in military weapon manipulation, grenade throwing, M-72 bazooka operation, mano-a-mano melee combat. I haven't touched a gun in 22 years (and hope not having to). If the need be I'm confident my skills would give me the edge over an untrained person. These would be my tertiary skill picking. They would cost alote in Xp but my character background would explain why I have them. A generous GM might even give me a rebate in XP because its plausible. For Corjay : I fail to see were you see a «class system» in CCR proposal. Its quite the opposite. I find it ultra-flexible. In fact I can tell you that the reason we stopped playing Star Frontiers (ages ago) is that we found the skills system under developped.... «Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
April 3, 2008 - 4:07am | About tertiary skill picking: I like them because with them you can create more rounded characters. You have the right idea, bioreplica... but the terminology is wrong. You don't "pick" a Tertiary PSA. You pick a Primary PSA and two Secondary PSAs. All other PSAs are considered "tertiary" to your concept. I opted to go this route. You pay the "tertiary" experience costs for any skill from a PSA you didn't select as Primary or Secondary.If I take myself as an exemple : My university schooling is in Fine Arts - Graphics / My profession is : Computer graphics (magazine layouts)... ...but few people know that (now more people know!) between the age of 16 and 18 I was a member of the Canadian Militia (ntl guards). I'm fully trained in military weapon manipulation, grenade throwing, M-72 bazooka operation, mano-a-mano melee combat. I haven't touched a gun in 22 years (and hope not having to). If the need be I'm confident my skills would give me the edge over an untrained person. These would be my tertiary skill picking. They would cost alote in Xp but my character background would explain why I have them. A generous GM might even give me a rebate in XP because its plausible. For Corjay : I fail to see were you see a «class system» in CCR proposal. Its quite the opposite. I find it ultra-flexible. In fact I can tell you that the reason we stopped playing Star Frontiers (ages ago) is that we found the skills system under developped.... 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
April 3, 2008 - 7:04pm | I stant corrected  ... good day !«Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
 April 3, 2008 - 9:52am | 'Rogue, Wow! I've been working on a SFAD Skill revision myself and while mine is remarkably similar to yours, what you've written is so much more elegant. There are a few nitpicks; I think Space Engineering should be a Technical PSA skill (Demolitions too for that matter, but that complaint goes all the way back to Alpha Dawn so I won't hold it against you); Agent seems too focused on Spies, I think it could be used to represent Star Law Rangers and even the local Constabulary as well and so on. But these are very minor points and largely a matter of personal taste. Excellent work on this. This should be a key article in the next issue of Star Frontiersman. "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." -- George Bernard Shaw |
April 3, 2008 - 4:53pm | 'Rogue, Wow! I've been working on a SFAD Skill revision myself and while mine is remarkably similar to yours, what you've written is so much more elegant. There are a few nitpicks; I think Space Engineering should be a Technical PSA skill (Demolitions too for that matter, but that complaint goes all the way back to Alpha Dawn so I won't hold it against you); Agent seems too focused on Spies, I think it could be used to represent Star Law Rangers and even the local Constabulary as well and so on. But these are very minor points and largely a matter of personal taste. Excellent work on this. This should be a key article in the next issue of Star Frontiersman. As far as Agent goes, I agree that it can be used for other things... so you just wouldn't take certain skills in it. For example, I might build a Star Law agent like this (assuming the optional rule of three level 1 skills, otherwise ignore Pop Culture for a starting-level character): PSA P:Agent S:Military S:Scholar SKILLS Detective 1 (for detecting forgeries, deception, spotting clues, etc.) Beam Weapons 1 (for shooting it out with foul villains!) Pop Culture 1 (to know what/who/where so the villains aren't one-up on me) 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
 April 7, 2008 - 7:12am | Okay, I've read all the posts now, and I'm ready to chip in my two centicreds. Bill, the issues with the skill progression system are just me, I just like the one in SF2K better, but it's nothing that won't affect the State of the Union. I agree with TerlObar that Astrogation and Navigation should be included under the Scientist PSA.\ The weapon skills are playable as is, though for those desiring a little more realism, one could always apply an unfamiliarity penalty(say -20%, for consistency's sake)to fire any weapon other than the one you're used to firing. Also, the Spaceship Gunnery skills can be folded into the other weapons skills, not requiring a pre-req to operate(merely a penalty), giving the same base chance to hit as any other weapons skill(i.e. treat gunnery skills as just another set of weapons skills for purposes of playability). As for creating more expirienced characters, I'd love to see some guidelines, if not hard-and-fast rules, but, then again, referee's discretion always works as well. Not a matter of life or death, mind. I've nothing more to add at this point, save maybe we should make this a project all to itself. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 April 8, 2008 - 12:50pm | Hmmm... I have given this a lot of thought... I think maybe there are too many PSAs... I find it unlikely, for example, that anyone would ever pick a Linguist or Artist PSA. Having said that, I always wanted to add a Heavy Weapons skill under the Mil PSA... Also, mixing in the ability scores with the Skill Checks puts a great emphasis on player stats. This, in turn, encourages "fudging" of the initial ability score rolls, and/or much PC whining if they don't get a bunch of 60s+. I actually like the fact that a doctor with a LOG score of, say 30 has the same chance to perform minor surgery as someone with a LOG score of 70. Granted, I understand what you are trying to do here, and from a realistic perspective, I agree with you. However, from a play balance perspective, I disagree. Games that put an inordinate focus on stats tend to suck, as they allow bad play to be compensated by flashy rolling against the high scores. Skills are opportunities to diverge from the chains of the stats that a PC rolled in the beginning of the game. PCs with bad stat rolls get to compensate against the PCs that rolled stats like rock stars. Additionally, I notice that you want to put the Spaceship Skills up front and available from the get-go, overruling Knight Hawks. This is very popular in the Star Frontiers community, so I understand why you did it. Of all the things in SF, I don't think there is anything more unpopular than the prerequisites for the Spaceship Skills. Maybe even Zebs is more popular (ever so slightly) than those prereqs! However, once again I feel the need to swim upstream here. And I know that 99% of the SF community will disagree with me on this. My angle is that running a spaceship should be a very special thing, and the idea of just jumping in at Level 1, with no XP at all and just piloting a fighter or Assault Scout or Freighter is just silly to me. The idea of someone just grabbing the controls of another ship and flying away is also rather lame to me. Maybe the prereqs are too harsh, and should be lowered? I can dig that. But operating a space ship, of whatever size, from the get-go, is not optimal. Level 1 characters should be doing far less glamourous work than that. That's what makes Level 1, well, Level 1! As a referee, I have always envisioned the following food chain: Levels 1-3 - running around pretty much on foot (maybe a skimmer or cycle here or there). Levels 4-5 - driving copters and explorers and other phat terrestrial vehicles Level 6+ - Spaceships The Spaceship level prereqs serve the purpose of creating that PC planning for skills and PSAs and to create that hunger. You wanna be a pilot ASAP? Well start boning up on your Tech and Comp skills if you want to be Captain Kirk. And if one or both of those skills is out of PSA because you also want to be Rambo, or Dr. Crusher, well then you are just going to have to wait - probably for a long, long time. Thems the breaks. Now maybe I have misunderstood your intent or position with these two main issues, and if I have, feel free to throw it down. |
 April 7, 2008 - 3:09pm | I happen to agree with Imperial Lord on the issue of space ship skills. I never had a problem with the pre-requisites. It represented the hard work and effort needed to gain those skills. I've never been keen on the idea of allowing beginning level characters to fly,navigate or repair starships. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 8, 2008 - 12:53pm | Ha-ha Terlo - that probably makes exactly two of us... |
April 13, 2008 - 3:48pm | Exactly two. To me, Level 1 in piloting, gunnery, engineering or nav is just that, someone who's just graduated flight(or tech, or gunnery)school and is now starting to make his way in the world. He's no Scotty or Han Solo(or even Harmon Rabb), but he could be. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 13, 2008 - 5:23pm | I agree with Will. The flight graduation analogy makes sense. 1st level characters could very well be on a starship during the first game of a campaign, act as junior officers, do the grunt work and go on away missions. «Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
April 16, 2008 - 3:39pm | For a fictional analogue of level 1 starship pilots, one need look no further than the Space:Above And Beyond pilot episode. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 17, 2008 - 8:33am | Yes Bio - but that does not mean that they need to be able to operate all aspects of the ship. They absolutely can start off as ship crews in some sort of capacity. Boarding parties particularly. And then, as they accumulate XP, they can get to the ship skills. And by then, they might have enough money to buy a ship of their own. And at this point, they can operate it, too. I think having the ship skills too early will take away from other things in the major skill areas. In other words, as a ref, at level 1 or so, I am going to have a lot more situations where you are healing characters or messing with comps/doodads/robots than you are going to be, for example, piloting or engineering a ship. Taking those skills later (ala the prereq) allows you to have a diverse set of skills first and plan your career. By the time you do actually have many Piloting or Engineering situations, your character does not suffer in other areas because he is such a veteran. |
April 17, 2008 - 5:27pm | You present a good case BUT : The beauty of RPGs is that characters in the party even each other out. Much like the Fellowship of the Ring each of them has his specialty. Its the sum of all skills possessed by the party that is interesting. Will they work together as a team? Lump sided characters are okay with me when I GM. I guess its a matter of personnal taste.. Isn't a ship just a fancy type transportation with big guns? If we ever get there ships will probably be quite easy to pilot because of all the software help. For exemple, todays Airbus is very «easy» to pilot compared to the previous generation of planes. Weapons on board current fighter planes have so much pilot assistance that they barely (the pilots) actually «pull the trigger» anymore... I'm 100% sure the CAPTAIN in the BIG CHAIR Star Trek model has close to nil chances of happening. All evasion maneuvers and the like will be handled by a AI. Spaceship piloting in the future stands a good chance of being a routine skill not something you train for years before mastering. So you see from my point of view I don't see the problem with 1st level characters having spaceship skills. «Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
April 17, 2008 - 6:49pm | Hey bio - you and almost everyone else in SF dislikes the spaceship prereqs. So from the position of democracy, if you will, the matter is already decided. In fact, I would go so far as to say that any reform of the Skill system WITHOUT spaceship skills would be in defiance of the vast majority of the SF community. So for that reason alone, Bill's inclusion of them in his proposal is legitimate. I would, however, like to address the "easy because of computers" angle. My response to that is, yes, under ideal conditions this equipment might be rather easy to operate. But what if damage is sustained to the computer systems? Part of a pilot's (or other senior ship crewman) training then would be needed to navigate the systems, somehow, and keep the ship on its desired course and mission. Computers also make mistakes. They can also fail to optimize because they are not aware of all of the variables in the situation. Or, they incorrectly weigh the variables, etc. A highly skilled ship crewman, with the vital PRE requisites, can take care of that unknown. It's not just a matter of pushing a button, inserting a flight plan program, and then reclining in your comfy acceleration chair until the docking sequence is complete. Normally that might be the case, but, you gotta be prepared. But, once again, I concede to the majority... |
April 17, 2008 - 7:23pm | How is piloting a spacecraft (inner system) different that piloting a helocopter, jetcopter or aircar? Don't you all think the technology 300+ years from now will enable ppl to fly stuff we can't today with TONS of training? w00ty minds want to know. |
April 17, 2008 - 7:29pm | I would, however, like to address the "easy because of computers" angle. My response to that is, yes, under ideal conditions this equipment might be rather easy to operate. But what if damage is sustained to the computer systems? Part of a pilot's (or other senior ship crewman) training then would be needed to navigate the systems, somehow, and keep the ship on its desired course and mission. A tale from the seventies : My father used to be a TV repairman. He was quite good at it in fact. Number one repairman at the Sears service center. In those days you had to know your stuff. TVs had hundreds of resistances and transistors. Some of the older models he repaired had lamps! The service center had 12 full time repairmen. Then, one day they were called in and told half of them would lose their job because new models of television would now have circuit boards. So a single man could repair twice has many TVs in the same amount of time ... The other day over the phone I asked him about the service center. It was closed years ago! The TVs are so easy to build they don't even bother repairing them any more. They just give the customer a new one if its broken. You see, I believe we can't really begin to understand what the future holds in store for us in the technological field. Self repairing bio-technological systems? A computer tech skill might turn out to be the ability to assist a system in self repair ... Computers also make mistakes. They can also fail to optimize because
they are not aware of all of the variables in the situation. Or, they
incorrectly weigh the variables, etc. A highly skilled ship crewman,
with the vital PRE requisites, can take care of that unknown. It is a know fact that most modern airplanes use automated landing maneuvers. Since the advent of this technology air control authorities report less mishaps and accidents then when humans handled it themselves. (Computers don't drink and drive, etc) I also know that the car industry is working very hard on driving assistance technology to lower the rate of accidents on the roads. Soon cars WON'T let you tailgate for exemple. An alarm will go off if you are to close to the car in front of you and the speed will adjust automatically for safe breaking distance. As for spaceship I'm talking of no less than self aware AIs. Pure intelligence without the moral, psychological and emotional handles. A formidable fighting machine if you ask me... But all that would make a very boring RPG wouldnt it?  «Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
April 21, 2008 - 7:40am | Alpha Dawn observation
A player has a 100% chance to add a piece of equipment to a robot but only a 40% + skill level chance to repair it (or something else). Who determines the 40%? Why would a player have a 80% + skill level base to DISPLAY INFORMATION? CleanCutRogue observation I also want to note that I really like the term "character concept". Funny note: After the game we were awarded 7XP and about 3,500Cr for the technology we brought back. Bill's boys found out that the Star Frontiersman had stuff like rocket packs, polyplate armour and writs rockets. So we know have an Agent and a Scientist (with no sense of humor) dressing up like Jango Fett. Can't wait till the next game. :-)Game Note: Corjay submitted an excellent creatre article in Issue 8. Bill used the Trapesaur on a non-exitant habitable moon around Thessis. LOL  http://flickr.com/photos/42207468@N00/2430635355/ |
