 March 29, 2008 - 8:56pm | New Skill System Proposal There are nine professional skill areas (PSAs) describing all potential aspects of a character's knowledge and ability. None of these PSAs are skills unto themselves, but instead a categorical collection of related skills. For example, you won't have a military skill. You'll have a melee weapons skill, or a demolitions skill. More Skills. Although there exists a list of skills under each PSA, this list is not exhaustive. Players are encouraged to develop their own ideas for skills to complete their character conceptions. Referees must approve the skill and the PSA under which it falls. Different players may even have the same skill under different skill areas if the Referee allows, representing different types of skill training. For example, Sarah wants her character to be good at data encryption. She looks throught he skill lists and can't specifically find that ability. She suggests it should fall under the Agent PSA. The Referee likes the idea and approves. Robert's character is a Military specialist and also wants skill with data encryption. He asks if he can have a data encryption skill under his Military PSA and the Referee allows it. In the end, they are both the same skill, but the training was derived from a different source. When decrypting military data, Robert's character is the obvious choice, though really they are both able to perform the skill the same. Character Generation All players must decide which PSA is primary to their character concept, and which two are secondary to it. List one PSA with a "P:" next to it. List two PSAs with an "S:" next to them. All seven other PSAs are tertiary to your character concept, and need not be listed on your sheet. Your character will begin with two level 1 skills. One of which must be from your character's Primary PSA. The second can be from any skill area desired. For example, your character's primary PSA is Military, and your secondary PSAs are Tech and Agent. You begin with two level 1 skills. One of which must come from your Military PSA, the other may come from any PSA (Military, Tech, Agent, or any other). You select Beam Weapons level 1 from Military, and Robotics level 1 from Tech. Character Advancement Instead of keying the costs of individual skills to the skill area itself (as it was done in Alpha Dawn rules), the costs are keyed to your PSA selections, rewarding a solid concept. Some people are good at learning sciences, some are good at learning languages... Some are natural born pilots. Whichever PSA is chosen as your character's primary one will have the easiest experience point progression. Your secondary PSAs will advance slightly slower, and all other skills will advance slowest still. After earning experience points, players may spend them on new skills or to advance skills they already have. The cost of the new skill level depends on whether the PSA which governs that skill was important to the character concept (i.e. was selected as either Primary or Secondary to your concept). The table below summarizes experience point costs. Table: Experience Point costs
Example: Logan is quite good at technical things. He can't change that about himself. Tech PSA is Primary to his concept. He's quite knowledgeable in many obscure areas and therefore Scholar PSA is secondary to his concept. Finally, he's a fair artist and that creativity often gives him insight to troubleshoot where hard facts fail him. Artist PSA is also Secondary to his concept. All other skill areas are tertiary to his concept. Skill Checks Where are the subskills? Where are my character's chances of success listed? The existing Alpha Dawn skill system requires lists and tables to be present at the gaming table, something that has been an antiquated idea since the early 1990s in role-playing evolution. This skill system takes its mechanics from the way Alpha Dawn expressed chance of success in combat. This helps keep your ability scores relevant even when testing one of your character's skills. To make a skill check, use 1/2 your character's ability score relevant to the situation, then add 10% per skill level. This applies to any roll having anything to do with that skill. There is no list of "subskills" defining what you can do with a skill: if you have a Survival skill (from the Scout PSA) for example, you get to make any roll having to do with survival in the same way. Modifiers apply based on any situational condition the Referee decides applies. Example: A robotics expert (someone with skill levels in Robotics, a skill in the Tech PSA) would be using his Intuition coupled with robotics skill when guessing where an access panel might be located on an attacking alien robotic technology, but if he were repairing it, he might be using Logic. There may even exist situations where the robotics skill could be used in conjunction with Dexterity or even Persuasion (haggling over the price of robotics parts with a chop shop owner?). In each of these cases, the player would use half his relavent ability score added to 10 times his skill level. Unskilled Skill Checks If you are asked to make a skill roll for a skill that is from either your primary secondary PSAs, yet you have no skill level in that skill, you may (if the Referee allows, based on the situation) use 1/2 your attribute but add nothing for skill level. This is called an Unskilled Skill Check. If you are asked to make a skill check for a skill you don't possess and is one that is from a PSA tertiary to your character concept, you can only succeed on a 01-05 (which is an automatic success in alpha dawn rules). Unskilled skill checks can be abused by players, and Referees are to be the final arbiter in such situations. For example: Uwan is a yazirian fleeing for his life from natives on a dangerous world he's gotten himself stranded on. As he rounds a corner in the canyon, he sees a place he thinks he can quickly climb up to a higher level. He needs to do this before the natives round the canyon, or they'll see him climbing and he'll be in trouble. His player, Fred, is told to make a climbing check using his Reaction Speed. His character's primary PSA is Scout, but he never thought of devoting any experience points to a climbing skill. He is allowed to use 1/2 his Reaction Speed score and use 0 as his skill level. Since his Reaction Speed is only 45, he has a 23% chance. He fails, and is half-way up the canyon wall when natives round the corner, spears in hand. Fred decides that after the adventure, he'll buy a level of climbing if his character survives! The Skill Areas Rather than provide an exhaustive list of skills, this system provides nine categories of professional skill. Individual skills are to be drawn from these PSAs. After each skill name is an example of the types of situations where that skill might come into play. This is meant to be a short example, not a comprehensive list of all situations.
Standard Rules Many skills from the tech skill area involve repairing equipment. These will use the standard repair rule from Alpha Dawn rulebook. Application of medical science can use the standard rules from Alpha Dawn as well, or a simpler mechanic: a successful Medic skill roll will heal a number of d10 equal to the medic's skill level, but require a like number of hours of recovery (thus a 3rd level medic might roll 3d10 and get 15... meaning he heals 15 STA if the patient rests 15 hours afterwards). If the full period of rest isn't taken, the healing will be halved. Finishing notes: Effort was made to allow this skill system to integrate seamlessly into existing campaigns. For example, all thirteen of the existing Star Frontiers Alpha Dawn skills are mentioned here, so converting a character is seamless. However, since there are more skills (and PSAs) than the original game, Referees might allow starting player characters to have Level 1 in a third skill drawn only from a tertiary PSA, just to round out the character and add more diversity. The defining factors about this skill system are the following:
3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 29, 2008 - 9:03pm | Note that the costs for experience points per skill level were derived as follows: the Primary skill progression uses the AD rule's Military progression, because it should be easiest for your character. The Secondary skills use the Technological progression from AD. The Tertiary skills use twice the Technological progression, because it would be the same as spending the "unskilled" cost of a skill, and Technological is the middle-of-the-road skill cost in AD. That's my justification. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
 March 29, 2008 - 9:29pm | "Skill areas"? Oh, I thought you meant subskills. Yeah, you can definitely add more without breaking the system, but I wouldn't bring it up to as many as 20, but that's just me. Skill areas are not classes themselves, but are generallized areas of study, so it's easy to cover a whole lot with a little. For instance, "Techonological" covers computers, robotics, and mechanical, thus covering the whole field. |
March 29, 2008 - 10:25pm | "Skill areas"? Oh, I thought you meant subskills. Yeah, you can definitely add more without breaking the system, but I wouldn't bring it up to as many as 20, but that's just me. Skill areas are not classes themselves, but are generallized areas of study, so it's easy to cover a whole lot with a little. For instance, "Techonological" covers computers, robotics, and mechanical, thus covering the whole field. of course! thats what the proposed system above illustrates 
3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 29, 2008 - 10:43pm | I was speaking specifically of the original rules for skills. |
March 29, 2008 - 11:27pm | Now that I've read your proposal, I have comments specific to it. I have had similar ideas regarding creating skills on the fly. However, when formulating it, I realized that more instruction is needed than just "declare the skill you wish to add to the list and work it out with the Referee". I realize this is your first treatment of it, and so is not perfect, so these are my thoughts. Each paragraph seems vague and lacks much specific direction. Instead of addressing each one, I'll just offer a version of your presentation, adding and rewording as needed. New Skill System Proposal There are ten professional skill areas describing all aspects of a character's knowledge and ability. None of these are skills unto themselves, but instead a collection of related skills. For example, you won't have a military skill. You'll have a melee weapons skill, or a demolitions skill. Unlike many skill systems, there is no finite list of skills. Instead, each professional skill area lists several suggested skills that would fall under the auspice of that skill area. Players are encouraged to develop their own ideas as well, to be approved by the referee. To do that, simply pick a name for the skill that accurately reflects the area the skill covers. The name should not be too general. When the time comes that you want your character to use the skill, the Referee will make a judgment determining whether it applies. Then you may perform the necessary check. Different players can even have the same skill under different skill areas, if the referee allows, representing different types of skill training. For example, Sarah wants her character to be good at data encryption. She suggests it should fall under Agent. The referee likes the idea and approves. Robert's character is a military specialist and also wants skill with encryption. He asks if he can have a data encryption skill under his Military skill area and the referee allows it. In the end, they are both the same skill, but the training was derived from a different source. When decrypting military data, Robert's character is the obvious choice, though really they are both able to perform the skill the same.Character Generation All players must decide which skill area is primary to their character concept, and which two are secondary to it. List one skill area on your character sheet and note it as his Primary Skill Area by putting a "P:" next to it. List two as secondary skill areas and put an "S:" next to them. All seven other skills are tertiary to your character concept, and need not be listed on your sheet. Your character will begin with level 1 in a skill governed by your primary skill area. Your character will also begin with a second level 1 skill selected from either of your secondary skill areas or from your primary one. Between each adventure, you may advance 1 level in any skills you like and/or add more skills. For example, your character's primary skill area is Military, and your secondary skill areas are Tech and Agent. You begin with two level 1 skills. One of which must come from your primary, the second may come from either your primary or your secondary. You select Beam Weapons level 1 from your primary, and Robotics level 1 from your secondary.Character Advancement Instead of keying the costs of individual skills to the skill area itself, the costs are keyed to your skill areas. Some people are good at learning sciences, some are good at learning languages... Some are natural born pilots. You get 1 primary skill area chosen when the game begins with 1 secondary skill area. You may later choose to have any number of secondary skill areas. You may also have any number of skills unassociated with a specific skill area, generically labeled as the character's tertiary skill area. [NOTE: The concept of tertiary skills needs to be explained in more detail, as what I'm seeing is that you could easily just choose another secondary skill area and fit the tertiary skill into it.] Whichever skill area is chosen as your character's primary one will have the easiest progression. Your secondary skill areas will advance slightly slower, and those skill areas listed as tertiary to your concept will advance slowest still. Table: Experience Point costs
Skill Checks Where are the subskills? Where are my character's chances of success listed? The existing Alpha Dawn skill system requires lists and tables to be present at the gaming table, something that has been an antiquated idea since the early 1990s in role-playing evolution. This skill system takes its mechanics from the way Alpha Dawn expressed chance of success in combat. This helps keep your ability scores relevant even when testing one of your character's skills. To make a skill check, use 1/2 your character's ability score relevant to the situation, approved by the Referee, then add 10% per skill level. Modifiers apply based on any situational condition the referee decides applies. Unskilled Skill Checks If you are asked to perform an action that can be said to logically be governed by a professional skill area that is either your primary or one of your secondaries, yet you have no skill level in that skill, you may use 1/2 your attribute but add nothing for skill level. If you are asked to make a skill check for a skill you don't possess and is one that is tertiary to your character concept, you can only succeed on a 01-05 (which is an automatic success in alpha dawn rules). For example: Uwan is a yazirian fleeing for his life from natives on a dangerous world he's gotten himself stranded on. As he rounds a corner in the canyon, he sees a place he thinks he can quickly climb up to a higher level. He needs to do this before the natives round the canyon, or they'll see him climbing and he'll be in trouble. His player, Fred, is told to make a climbing check. His primary skill area is Scout, but he never thought of devoting any experience points to a climbing skill. He is allowed to use 1/2 his ability score and use 0 as his skill level. The Referee informs him that Strength will be the determining factor here, to pull himself up fast and furiously. Since his Strength is only 45, he has a 23% chance. He fails, and is half-way up the canyon wall when natives round the corner, spears in hand. Fred decides that after the adventure, he'll buy a level of climbing if his character survives!The Skills Rather than provide an exhaustive list of skills, this system provides ten categories of professional skill. Individual skills are to be drawn from these skill areas, but not exclusive to those listed. [NOTE: The words I added aren't that important, as you have it covered above and in the following list, but adding them here seems to slam the point home just right.]
Standard Rules Many skills from the tech skill area involve repairing equipment. These will use the standard repair rule from Alpha Dawn rulebook. Application of medical science can use the standard rules from Alpha Dawn as well, or a simpler mechanic: a successful first aid attempt heals 10 Stamina. A successful surgery roll will heal a number of d10 equal to the medic's skill level, but require a like number of hours of recovery (thus a 3rd level medic might roll 3d10, heal 15 STA if the patient rests 15 hours after the surgery). If the period of rest isn't taken, the healing will be halved. Finishing notes: Effort was made to allow this skill system to integrate seamlessly into existing campaigns. For example, all thirteen of the existing Star Frontiers Alpha Dawn skills are mentioned here. However, since there are more skills than the original game, Referees might allow starting player characters to have Level 1 in a third skill drawn from a non-primary skill area, just to round out the character and add more diversity. While this may not be how you would handle the specifics, that's how my mind filled them in. It still needs more, as shown with the note on tertiary skills and also in stuff I couldn't quite put my finger on just yet. . |
March 29, 2008 - 11:38pm | Oh yeah, some skills have special needs that can't be handled with a simple skill check (Such as Wounds 1 to IV). How do you intend to handle those? |
March 30, 2008 - 1:36am | All skill areas not Primary or Secondary to the character concept are considered Tertiary. Hope that clarifies.
You're right, some special considerations are helpful. But I don't see any reason to have different categories of wounds. In my games, I use the rule I mentioned in my article already. Quite simply, a level 1 medic can heal 1d10 damage which requires a like number of hours of rest. A level 6 medic would heal 6d10 damage. So if that level 6 medic rolls 35, he will heal 35 STA if the patient rests 35 hours after surgery. Healing is halved if proper rest isn't taken. I don't use Minor vs. Major surgery or anything like that. (I really do oversimplify at times, not for all tastes, but it keeps my games moving quickly). I-IV is something made up by ZG - can you explain it briefly? I'm not familiar, nor can I see why that added level of complexity is required for a fast-moving game... 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 30, 2008 - 2:01am | Some of your proposed edits are quite wrong. To do that, simply pick a name for the skill that
accurately reflects the area the skill covers. The name should not be
too general. When the time comes that you want your character to use
the skill, the Referee will make a judgment determining whether it
applies. Then you may perform the necessary check. This one is fine. I didn't think it necessary to provide further detail here, but if it helps explain things then it's fine.Between each adventure, you may advance 1 level in any skills you like and/or add more skills. This is stated under the wrong heading - look directly below the section you wrote this in, in an area called "Character Advancement." Additionally, if I were a new reader and read this sentence, I'd be confused and think after each adventure I can automatically advance one level in any skills I like... but that's not true; you need to spend experience points.You get 1 primary skill area chosen when the game
begins with 1 secondary skill area. You may later choose to have any
number of secondary skill areas. You may also have any number of skills
unassociated with a specific skill area, generically labeled as the
character's tertiary skill area. [NOTE:
The concept of tertiary skills needs to be explained in more detail, as
what I'm seeing is that you could easily just choose another secondary
skill area and fit the tertiary skill into it.] This is WRONG. You begin the game (a couple paragraphs above this one in the original article proposal explains it) with one skill area as Primary to your concept, and two skill areas as Secondary to your concept. All other skill areas are Tertiary to your concept. You can't change this in game. This is a character generation decision. It's also fairly realistic. Consider this:Bill Logan is quite good at technical things. He can't change that about himself. Tech is Primary to his concept. He's quite knowledgeable in many obscure areas of knowledge and therefore Scholar is secondary to his concept. Finally, he's a fair artist and that creativity often gives him insight to troublshoot where hard facts fail him. Artist is also Secondary to his concept. All other skill areas are Tertiary to his concept. He advances best at technical skills. He advances fairly well with artistic and scholarly skills, and all other skills require him to put in extra effort to master. It's just the way he's built. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 30, 2008 - 2:14am | The statement leading to the bullet points was as cryptic as before. Your bullet points are what clarified it for me. I-III are AD (First Aid, Minor Surgery, Major Surgery), Zeb's only added IV and I don't care much for it. Yes, I'll be changing the skills in AER to reflect this (I got tunnel vission when I did the skills list). Medical isn't the only place where special rules are seen. Here's a list of skills from AD with special rules: Setting Charges Diffusing Charges Martial Arts Operating Computers Writing Programs Defeating Security Displaying Information Manipulating Programs Interfacing Computers Altering Functions Altering Mission Operating Machinery Repairing Machinery Detecting Alarms/Defenses Deactivating Alarms/Defenses Opening Locks Empathy Persuasion Hypnosis As you can see, a lot of skills have their own rules. Several of those won't do to group the information elsewhere or else contain valuable information for the Referee specific to the ability. |
March 30, 2008 - 2:14am | Additional clarification: I don't consider a skill to be primary or secondary... or even tertiary. A skill is a skill, but it belongs to a category that is primary, secondary, or tertiary to your character's concept. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 30, 2008 - 2:27am | You get 1 primary skill area chosen when the game
begins with 1 secondary skill area. You may later choose to have any
number of secondary skill areas. You may also have any number of skills
unassociated with a specific skill area, generically labeled as the
character's tertiary skill area. [NOTE:
The concept of tertiary skills needs to be explained in more detail, as
what I'm seeing is that you could easily just choose another secondary
skill area and fit the tertiary skill into it.] This is WRONG. You begin the game (a couple paragraphs above this one in the original article proposal explains it) with one skill area as Primary to your concept, and two skill areas as Secondary to your concept. All other skill areas are Tertiary to your concept. You can't change this in game. This is a character generation decision. It's also fairly realistic. Consider this:Bill Logan is quite good at technical things. He can't change that about himself. Tech is Primary to his concept. He's quite knowledgeable in many obscure areas of knowledge and therefore Scholar is secondary to his concept. Finally, he's a fair artist and that creativity often gives him insight to troublshoot where hard facts fail him. Artist is also Secondary to his concept. All other skill areas are Tertiary to his concept. He advances best at technical skills. He advances fairly well with artistic and scholarly skills, and all other skills require him to put in extra effort to master. It's just the way he's built. I did give you indication that I understood that I might be off, because the information wasn't well defined. I'm not sure what you mean by "You can't change this in game." I have a feeling it applies to my adding something in the wrong order (again, because I misunderstood the intent). |
March 30, 2008 - 3:05am | Dude - sorry my bad. I didn't mean that to be harsh. All caps on the word wrong does read rudely, I apologize. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 30, 2008 - 3:10am | Tsalright. I'm heading to bed myself. Nighters. |
 March 30, 2008 - 5:34am | If you are writing a new skill section to replace the alpha dawn version, then I might make a suggestion to address the way skills work. <insert witty comment here> |
March 30, 2008 - 5:40am | A more thorough read and I found that you are making all skills work like 'to hit' chances in combat. That might solve the issue I just posted about - not how I would do it (makes ability scores too much of a factor in my opinion), but works as well. <insert witty comment here> |
 March 30, 2008 - 6:58am | CleanCutRogue : You've got something extremely interesting with the three tiers of skills system. At first I had trouble understanding what you ment. But the description you gave of «yourself» coined it for me. ---- SmoothRK : I have problems with linking skills with abilities. Historically when skills are linked to an ability in RPGs they a linked a to single abilty. I find this to be reductive. All skills should benefit from 3 abilities to make them more «lifelike». (I'm following Bill's line of thinking here) For exemple: 1- Disfusing Charges : dexterity+logic+reaction/3 = bonus 2- Martial Arts : dexterity+reaction+intuition/3 = bonus 3- Write Programs : logic+intuition+reaction/3 = bonus 4- Empathy : intuition+leadership+personality/3 = bonus «Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
March 30, 2008 - 8:03am | I'm a firm believer that skills should not be paired with specific ability scores. A robotics expert would be using his Intuition coupled with robotics skill when guessing where an access panel might be located on an attacking alien robotic technology. But if he were repairing it, he might be using Logic. I can even imagine situations where Robotics could be used in conjunction with Dexterity or even Persuasion (haggling over the price of robotics parts with a chop shop owner?) That's why I chose to allow skill checks to couple with situationally-selected ability scores as needed. Using the 1/2 Ability Score + 10xSkill Level was to tie it in with the TO HIT rules, which does a fairly good job at scaling abilities in my opinion. It seems my text wasn't as clear as I had originally thought. Perhaps I'll try to come up with a better way to word it? Or can someone else who seems to understand me? Basically, in a nutshell, there are 10 PSAs. I consider these to be "Professional Skill Areas". Players select one of them to be Primary to their character concept, and select two more to be Secondary to their character concept. All other skill areas are tertiary to their concept. Beginning players still get two level-1 skills, one of which must come from their Primary Professional Skill Area, the other may be from any skill area desired. Your character's Primary Professional Skill Area is one that he finds easiest to master. Your character's two Secondary Professional Skill Areas are those that he finds fairly easy to learn. All other Professional Skill Areas he finds more difficult to master, having to devote more time and study to learn. These facts are represented by the experience point cost required to purchase each skill level of a chosen skill. Is this any clearer? It all makes sense in my head haha... 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 30, 2008 - 8:19am | A more thorough read and I found that you are making all skills work like 'to hit' chances in combat. That might solve the issue I just posted about - not how I would do it (makes ability scores too much of a factor in my opinion), but works as well. To each his own, but I personally find that the formula matches real life fairly well. At low levels of experience, the character's ability scores help him more than his training. As he progresses, though, his skill level means much more to his chance of success. Rookies trust their wits and prowess, while veterans trust their training and experience. But that's just my take. Remember that an average ability score is 45. That means a base success rate of 23 given by your ability score, plus 10xlevel. Even at level 2, your experience and training nearly catches up to your raw attribute.3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 30, 2008 - 8:27am | I'm a firm believer that skills should not be paired with specific ability scores... That's why I chose to allow skill checks to couple with situationally-selected ability scores as needed. Using the 1/2 Ability Score + 10xSkill Level was to tie it in with the TO HIT rules, which does a fairly good job at scaling abilities in my opinion. MAKES SENSE TO ME. Goes in the direction I was hinting. More lifelike skill usage !!!Basically, in a nutshell, there are 10 PSAs. I consider these to be "Professional Skill Areas". Players select one of them to be Primary to their character concept, and select two more to be Secondary to their character concept. All other skill areas are tertiary to their concept. Beginning players still get two level-1 skills, one of which must come from their Primary Professional Skill Area, the other may be from any skill area desired. VERY CLEARYour character's Primary Professional Skill Area is one that he finds easiest to master. Your character's two Secondary Professional Skill Areas are those that he finds fairly easy to learn. All other Professional Skill Areas he finds more difficult to master, having to devote more time and study to learn. These facts are represented by the experience point cost required to purchase each skill level of a chosen skill. EXTREMELY CLEAR ... go for it !«Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
March 30, 2008 - 8:46am | The statement leading to the bullet points was as cryptic as before. Your bullet points are what clarified it for me. My only problem with these things is that, in-game, most Referees tend not to look to the rulebook to resolve actions. Most of the time, all the Referees (or DMs, GMs, Storytellers, etc.) I've played with tend to keep things moving quickly with solid judgement calls and pretty much resolve things with just one roll. Even when you look at games like D&D3.5 or d20 Modern or Future, skills which have special cases associated with them or which have tables and charts listing all the modifiers tend to not get looked at in-game.I-III are AD (First Aid, Minor Surgery, Major Surgery), Zeb's only added IV and I don't care much for it. Yes, I'll be changing the skills in AER to reflect this (I got tunnel vission when I did the skills list). Medical isn't the only place where special rules are seen. Here's a list of skills from AD with special rules: Setting Charges Diffusing Charges Martial Arts Operating Computers Writing Programs Defeating Security Displaying Information Manipulating Programs Interfacing Computers Altering Functions Altering Mission Operating Machinery Repairing Machinery Detecting Alarms/Defenses Deactivating Alarms/Defenses Opening Locks Empathy Persuasion Hypnosis As you can see, a lot of skills have their own rules. Several of those won't do to group the information elsewhere or else contain valuable information for the Referee specific to the ability. That's why to me there's no need to differentiate between wounds I, II, and III... it's just a medic using his skill roll to repair a person. No different than a computer programer making one single skill roll to write a program, or a technician using his skill roll to repair a ground car. If the Referee determines that certain situational penalties or bonuses apply, so be it. No table is necessary to govern that... just a statement that says Referees may apply situational adjustements to the success rate to represent whatever conditions apply. That keeps the game moving fast and free. Maybe me and my experiences are unusual - anyone else want to mention whether or not they or their groups play this way? Do you or your DM/GM/Referee reference the rulesbooks in-play to look up success rates or special rules? Or do they just say "give me a stealth roll" and game on? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 30, 2008 - 8:58am | I referee and make judgment calls on the spot. Giving bonuses, etc. Looking at tables slows the rythm of the game. When I want tables I play 40K or Warmachines. «Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
 March 30, 2008 - 10:21am | Back when I actually ran a regular game (read > a decade ago), I didn't spend time looking up the details. Of course, my mind was young an flexible back then and the number of skills & subskills in AD & KH is small enough that I just had them memorized so I didn't need to look them up. Or if I did I had the little game aid sheet right there that had them all listed in one place. That's for the numbers, for the details of the effects of the skills, that was never looked up unless absolutely critical, I knew what the general idea was and just played it from the hip.Comments on the specific suggestion: Let me see if I'm reading this correctly, if I pick Tech as my primary area, I can then pick Computers as my skill and use that to do anything with computers, i.e. repair, program, defeat/bypass security, etc? Or are each of those (repair, program, etc) a sperate skill I have to choose. I believe you are suggesting the former but I want to be clear. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 April 1, 2008 - 8:54am | Bill, solid concept overall, only things I would add would be mechanics to create more expirienced PCs(ala SF2K), lowering the xp requirments to advance in level, and a few more skill areas(like Astrogation/Navigation), but that's just me adding pepper to the stew for taste. Having every skill check equalling ½ relevant ability+10% × skill level goes a long way towards standardizing the use of skill in the game, which, frankly, is an idea whose time has come. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 1, 2008 - 2:54pm | Bill, solid concept overall, only things I would add would be mechanics to create more expirienced PCs(ala SF2K), lowering the xp requirments to advance in level, and a few more skill areas(like Astrogation/Navigation), but that's just me adding pepper to the stew for taste. Creating more experienced characters? Hm. I've always handled that by simply giving discretionary experience points to spend. Because creating experienced characters is more than about additional skills. There's also ability scores and racial abilities to consider.Having every skill check equalling ½ relevant ability+10% × skill level goes a long way towards standardizing the use of skill in the game, which, frankly, is an idea whose time has come. What do ya mean about lowering the xp requirements to advance in level? You aren't a fan of the SF standard progression rate? I didn't want to make a system that violated AD too very badly - maintaining compatibility while expanding concepts was my goal. You're quite right - I should mention Astrogation and Navigation. I'm trying to keep to these ten Skill Areas (I maintain that these ten cover everything possible), so Astrogation and Navigation would have to be skills under the categories of either Scout (which already mentions 'direction sense' as an example), Pilot, Science (which already mentions 'space science' as an example) or another... where do you guys think they fit? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
April 1, 2008 - 4:29pm | I'd put Astrogation under Scientist as it is mostly Astronomy (knowing where they systems are, their motions, etc and where you are in relation to them) and Mathematics (lots and lots of algebra - Calculus is easy, it's all the algebra you have to do that's hard). Although you could have some overlap with Scholar and Pilot. From a purist standpoint in keeping with the AD/KH rules, it should fall under Tech as it is a progression on the Computer skill but I think we are getting away from that with this variation. Navigation (i.e. on planet/asteroid/moon/etc) I would put under Scout in the above ten categories with maybe some overlap into Scientist and Pilot. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. I can't put my finger on it exactly but for some reason, this feels like it is producing more limited characters that will be harder to advance compared to standard rules. I guess what isn't completely clear to me is if we still have groups of skill (ala AD skills and subskills) or a slew of individual skills (ala Zebulon's Guide). In some of the PSA's (Tech, Scientist, etc) it seems like it is the former while in others(Agent, Scout, etc) it seems like the latter. Maybe I just need to see some example characters and situations whrere this new skill system is applied in order to understand it better. If nothing else, we've made it much harder to be a medic as written. Now you have to advance completely separately for the different races whereas before it was just one skill. So to get the equivent of spending 10 XP to get to level two in the orginal system ,you now have to spend 2 x 3XP to get level one in the additional two races (assuming you used your first two skills to get the first two races) plus 4 x 6XP to get to level two in all four races for a total of 30 XP, 3x harder (and that's only if you use the core 4 races!) It's more realistic but breaks significantly from the original. Maybe a better suggestion, at least for the medical skill is to have a primary race and a modifier, say the -20 alien species modifier from the original rules to all others and then make it possible to buy off this modifier by spending some number of XP to "learn" that species. Unfortunately that is a one-off excption that complicates the simple system. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 1, 2008 - 6:15pm | I'd put Astrogation under Scientist as it is mostly Astronomy (knowing where they systems are, their motions, etc and where you are in relation to them) and Mathematics (lots and lots of algebra - Calculus is easy, it's all the algebra you have to do that's hard ). Although you could have some overlap with Scholar and Pilot. From a purist standpoint in keeping with the AD/KH rules, it should fall under Tech as it is a progression on the Computer skill but I think we are getting away from that with this variation.Navigation (i.e. on planet/asteroid/moon/etc) I would put under Scout in the above ten categories with maybe some overlap into Scientist and Pilot. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. I can't put my finger on it exactly but for some reason, this feels like it is producing more limited characters that will be harder to advance compared to standard rules. I guess what isn't completely clear to me is if we still have groups of skill (ala AD skills and subskills) or a slew of individual skills (ala Zebulon's Guide). In some of the PSA's (Tech, Scientist, etc) it seems like it is the former while in others(Agent, Scout, etc) it seems like the latter. Maybe I just need to see some example characters and situations whrere this new skill system is applied in order to understand it better. If nothing else, we've made it much harder to be a medic as written. Now you have to advance completely separately for the different races whereas before it was just one skill. So to get the equivent of spending 10 XP to get to level two in the orginal system ,you now have to spend 2 x 3XP to get level one in the additional two races (assuming you used your first two skills to get the first two races) plus 4 x 6XP to get to level two in all four races for a total of 30 XP, 3x harder (and that's only if you use the core 4 races!) It's more realistic but breaks significantly from the original. Maybe a better suggestion, at least for the medical skill is to have a primary race and a modifier, say the -20 alien species modifier from the original rules to all others and then make it possible to buy off this modifier by spending some number of XP to "learn" that species. Unfortunately that is a one-off excption that complicates the simple system. My intent is not to cause it to be more restrictive, but less. I agree with you whole-heartedly on the Medic example. I didn't want to break the existing AD medic rules that badly, and your example helps me a lot. I think, instead, Medical should just be one skill, under the Scientist category. That makes more sense anyway, and keeps us from having to have racial variations to the skill. The organization I've done isn't using subskills at all. It uses PSA (of which there are currently ten, though now that I'm folding Medical into Scientist that makes only nine). It uses Skills (a finite number are to be listed as examples, but creative players can come up with their own, or get Referee permission to get training in a specific skill under the category of another). It doesn't break down skills into subskills, as I feel that mechanic is cumbersome and I seldom bring out the tables during gameplay anyway. If I fold Medical into Scientist and make Medical a single skill, then I have only nine Professional Skill Areas. That's fine by me, but do they cover everything? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
April 1, 2008 - 7:54pm | The organization I've done isn't using subskills at all. It uses PSA
(of which there are currently ten, though now that I'm folding Medical
into Scientist that makes only nine). It uses Skills (a finite number
are to be listed as examples, but creative players can come up with
their own, or get Referee permission to get training in a specific
skill under the category of another). It doesn't break down skills
into subskills, as I feel that mechanic is cumbersome and I seldom
bring out the tables during gameplay anyway. Okay but, I'm still not seeing exactly how you want it to break down. Is Tracking a separate skill than Stealth which are both separate from Concealment and have to be increased separately or do they fall under some larger "skill" and all get increased together. Again, these are all part of the old Enviromental skill so a single 10XP expenditure would bump them up to level 2 from level 1. If they are separate skills in this new system it would take 3XP to learn the third skill + 3x6XP to get to level 2 in all of them for a total of 21 XP, a factor of 2 higher and that doesn't even include the other skills that were called subskills in the old system. It think that part of the problem is that some of your PSA list broad skills while some list narrow ones. For example, the Tech PSA lists computers, robotics, etc and then you can do a lot of different things with them (repair, program, etc). The Agent PSA on the other hand, lists specific actions as skills (disguise, prowling, hiding, pocketpicking, etc) which I feel are on the same level of granularity as program computer, repair computer, bypass security, etc. Thus they are inconsistant. I can spend my 6XP to go from level 1 to level 2 in the "Computer" skill and improve my chances with a lot of activities or I can spend them on a single type of activity in the Agent PSA. If the ideas in the Agent PSA are the way you are thinking of things going, then I'd say things like program computers are different than repair computers are different then bypass security and we are at a Zeb's guide style where all the skills are very fine grained. In which case Will is exactly right and the XP cost has to drop considerably There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, I like fine grained skills. What I don't like is XP. (I played RuneQuest for too long I guess. It uses a fine grained skill system with no XP. Someday I'll work the SF skills into a similar system. I have a lot of ideas, I just have to work out the details without changing the flavor of the game too much and write it down.) Again, maybe it just needs better verbage describing it but right now that is how I'm reading it. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 1, 2008 - 8:22pm | I'm looking at the skill list and realizing that some are too finite, while others are broad. I can't have individual finite skills if I'm going this route. For example: there are too many individual skills listed under Scout. There needs to be fewer, more comprehensive skills listed under that skill area. I'll re-think. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
April 1, 2008 - 8:38pm | Okay, so it wasn't just me . Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 1, 2008 - 8:46pm | I'm looking at the skill list and realizing that some are too finite, while others are broad. I can't have individual finite skills if I'm going this route. For example: there are too many individual skills listed under Scout. There needs to be fewer, more comprehensive skills listed under that skill area. I'll re-think. This was the primary point I meant, but couldn't express it well enough. If you are leaving skill creation up to the player, then you need rules on what defines a skill. Otherwise every player will also be having trouble creating a skill, ending up with stuff that is too finite and other stuff that is too broad. |
