 November 2, 2007 - 6:49am | One hole I have always thought was in the rules is that you have to be a very experienced character to get in the cockpit of a starship.....anyone have any ideas on this? I want to work on some supplemental rules for my own use but help would be nice.... Mess with the fish....you get the bone!!! |
 November 2, 2007 - 7:07am | Thx for the post - I'm also interested in the same. I'd like to combine 80% AD type adventures with a few thrown in space-type battles with small ships. |
 November 2, 2007 - 7:07am | I agree. I always thought the skill setup of Knight Hawks was out of line. Most "pilots" are not unbelievably skilled technicians, most "ship gunners" are not superior small arms shooters, and astrogators/navigators should not have to be top level computer programmers. Possible fixes are to eliminate prerequisites that don't make sense to your game (simply let the skills be purchased as is -- engineers without technician skill will suffer in their job and be unable to perform routine duties without them, etc ...) and/or greatly reduce those prereq's. |
 November 2, 2007 - 7:09am | I think the KH rules are realistic... after all, to fly a plane requires a lot of training, but you don't get to fly fighter-jets without additional skill and military training... and even then, you don't get to be an astronaught without being the cream of the crop and huge amounts of additional training. Fast forward to future, and I and still think the additional training might be necessary, as interplanetary and stellar travel isn't exactly like heading to the mall. But I hear you... it would be nice to have characters/games when one can get into the spaceflight aspects of the game sooner. If I were Refereeing a game where everyone wanted to go the KH route, then I would simply start characters with bonus XP to spend wisely on acquiring the right set of skills to allow access to the spacecraft skills. <insert witty comment here> |
November 2, 2007 - 7:25am | Actually, Battlestar Galactica covers a similar ranking as KH. They recruit pilots and astrogators from their techs, and then promote them to the bridge after that. Of course, they don't have to deal with the system ship classifications, but even that makes sense to me. It's not ideal, perhaps, or maybe it is, but think about it. We all get frustrated by the red tape it takes to accomplish our dreams. No one just starts out at the top. Now, what you could do is view the pilot ability as a military pilot ability, and produce a civian pilot ability that separates fighter and assault scout training from the large ship classifications. |
November 2, 2007 - 9:00am | I agree to a point -- flying planes/jets requires a lot of training, but that training is in flying (and in military jets, dogfighting and weapons skills) -- what I'm saying is that a fighter pilot cannot rip the engine out of his jet, tear it apart, and fix it. But a level 4 or 6 Technician could. Training to fly a plane or fighter or pilot a ship is different from knowing how to fix and maintain the systems of the plane or fighter or ship. I would bet most commercial airliner pilots would not know how to fix damage to their plane's landing gear. Also, the BSG thing isn't exactly the same since they have to promote from within and simply choose/recruit from a limited, somewhat skilled pool. That analogy would be like taking maintenance crew from the Nimitz and training them as pilots. But to concede to the idea that a lot of training is necessary, why not simply increase the experience point costs and require minimal prereq's? |
November 2, 2007 - 9:23am | I agree to a point -- flying planes/jets requires a lot of training, but that training is in flying (and in military jets, dogfighting and weapons skills) -- what I'm saying is that a fighter pilot cannot rip the engine out of his jet, tear it apart, and fix it. But a level 4 or 6 Technician could. Well, seeing as Spacers are seen as lifers in the space trade, that sounds very appropriate. Even though there are plenty of people who want to visit the stars planetside, being on one of the many ships moving between the stars is the best place to get one's start, so that typically those born on such ships are going to be the most likely to become the pilots of those ships. It's also a matter of trust. They want people who have natural instincts for space travel to be piloting them, and who better than someone who was born and raised in space and has thus likely performed many other duties on the ship before ever becoming the pilot of the ship or even a fighter. So this sort of hierarchy is likely common in the space lanes.Training to fly a plane or fighter or pilot a ship is different from knowing how to fix and maintain the systems of the plane or fighter or ship. I would bet most commercial airliner pilots would not know how to fix damage to their plane's landing gear. Also, the BSG thing isn't exactly the same since they have to promote from within and simply choose/recruit from a limited, somewhat skilled pool. That analogy would be like taking maintenance crew from the Nimitz and training them as pilots. But to concede to the idea that a lot of training is necessary, why not simply increase the experience point costs and require minimal prereq's? |
November 2, 2007 - 10:12am | Possibly. I'm unsure how the Merchant Marine operates, but it seems likely that lifers in that service rise in the ranks, much as you described. The lifers would very likely have high levels of skill and familiarity, but that does not prevent outsiders from coming in with some mastery of higher level tasks without having to start at the bottom (piloting, engineering, navigation/astrogation, etc ... .). Whether or not that service accepts them in that position is up to the service. But either way it is set up in the game, it still wouldn't be necessary for a space ship weapon gunner to be an absolute expert with a laser rifle (remember, prereq for Spaceship Beam weapons is level 6 Beam weapons skill). Gunners on our wet navy destroyers and cruisers are not necessarily dead-eye marksmen with rifles. Which brings us back to the core question: are the very high level prereq's for spaceship skills realistic? It depends on your personal tastes in your game. Personally, I think that they are too high (set up that way by the game designers to slow character growth in those skills and prevent uber-spacers who can do everything) and that a modicum of rough skill in the appropriate areas, allong with increased experience costs would be appropriate. But that is just me. |
 November 2, 2007 - 1:09pm | I agree. I always thought the skill setup of Knight Hawks was out of line. Most "pilots" are not unbelievably skilled technicians, most "ship gunners" are not superior small arms shooters, and astrogators/navigators should not have to be top level computer programmers. Possible fixes are to eliminate prerequisites that don't make sense to your game (simply let the skills be purchased as is -- engineers without technician skill will suffer in their job and be unable to perform routine duties without them, etc ...) and/or greatly reduce those prereq's. As far as the pilot thing goes, the pre-req was pretty much laid down in the AD rules even before KH was published. The Operate Machinery subskill of technicians says that you need to be LVL:2 to pilot jetcopters, LVL:4 for air cars, and LVL:6 for shuttles. Hence the LVL:6 tech background for a ship pilot, as that's the next progression (system ships, small starships, etc w/ each pilot level). Astrogators need a healthy background in program manipulation and displaying of information (hence the high computer pre-req). Gunners need a healthy background in trajectory, and the closest thing to that is the corresponding weapon skills. I always felt that in addition to robotics, an engineer should hae a working knowledge of computers as well...such as LVL:1 robotics and LVL:1 computer Perhaps it is this flaw of the AD skill system...that only certain SUBSKILLS are mandated. This may have been one ideal behind the Zebulon Guide splitting up of skills, perhaps their planned future editions were going to cover ship skills with a mere high level Operate Machinery as a pre-req rather than having all the technical skills at a high level. It was something I was experimenting with as well...allowing a character to buy all the subskills at 0 level and improve them individually (at a lower XP expenditure) rather than as a whole. That way one technician would be an accomplished operator, another an accomplished repairman, a third could be an accomplished security systems man, etc |
November 2, 2007 - 1:32pm | I agree. I always thought the skill setup of Knight Hawks was out of line. Most "pilots" are not unbelievably skilled technicians, most "ship gunners" are not superior small arms shooters, and astrogators/navigators should not have to be top level computer programmers. Possible fixes are to eliminate prerequisites that don't make sense to your game (simply let the skills be purchased as is -- engineers without technician skill will suffer in their job and be unable to perform routine duties without them, etc ...) and/or greatly reduce those prereq's. As far as the pilot thing goes, the pre-req was pretty much laid down in the AD rules even before KH was published. The Operate Machinery subskill of technicians says that you need to be LVL:2 to pilot jetcopters, LVL:4 for air cars, and LVL:6 for shuttles. Hence the LVL:6 tech background for a ship pilot, as that's the next progression (system ships, small starships, etc w/ each pilot level). Astrogators need a healthy background in program manipulation and displaying of information (hence the high computer pre-req). Gunners need a healthy background in trajectory, and the closest thing to that is the corresponding weapon skills. I always felt that in addition to robotics, an engineer should hae a working knowledge of computers as well...such as LVL:1 robotics and LVL:1 computer Perhaps it is this flaw of the AD skill system...that only certain SUBSKILLS are mandated. This may have been one ideal behind the Zebulon Guide splitting up of skills, perhaps their planned future editions were going to cover ship skills with a mere high level Operate Machinery as a pre-req rather than having all the technical skills at a high level. It was something I was experimenting with as well...allowing a character to buy all the subskills at 0 level and improve them individually (at a lower XP expenditure) rather than as a whole. That way one technician would be an accomplished operator, another an accomplished repairman, a third could be an accomplished security systems man, etc Well, the Zeb's skills provide a small list of non-prereq driving skills. |
November 2, 2007 - 1:22pm | (snip) (compile ideas and come up with a balanced solution) I ask because all you have intimate knowledge and it would be great to pool that knowledge collaboratively. thoughts? |
November 2, 2007 - 1:46pm | (snip) (compile ideas and come up with a balanced solution) I ask because all you have intimate knowledge and it would be great to pool that knowledge collaboratively. thoughts? |
November 2, 2007 - 2:16pm | Just for pilots? I'm not sure that warrants a project. I mean, in AER I provide a solution using the existing mechanics. Perhaps we can discuss it, come up with a solution, and whatever we decide on, I'll use it. Go to the Vehicle Piloting skill there to read about it, and you can see it in the Military skills list. I will check it out. 
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November 2, 2007 - 8:19pm | Absolutely....that is exactly the adventure type I want to use... To everyone else thanks for the comments...I think that one of the archetypial characters in science fiction is the pilot...a young "Maverick" (ok ok stop all the gagging noises) who is diffeniately not a tech. I do however think that pilots and starship crew in general warrant a project...a tweak here and there...which by the way, as a military type of guy and a aviation enthusiast, I would love to work on!!! Mess with the fish....you get the bone!!! |
November 2, 2007 - 8:44pm | Absolutely....that is exactly the adventure type I want to use... Then have at it. Glad to have you on board on the site! To everyone else thanks for the comments...I think that one of the archetypial characters in science fiction is the pilot...a young "Maverick" (ok ok stop all the gagging noises) who is diffeniately not a tech. I do however think that pilots and starship crew in general warrant a project...a tweak here and there...which by the way, as a military type of guy and a aviation enthusiast, I would love to work on!!!
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November 2, 2007 - 8:54pm | I agree. I always thought the skill setup of Knight Hawks was out of line. Most "pilots" are not unbelievably skilled technicians, most "ship gunners" are not superior small arms shooters, and astrogators/navigators should not have to be top level computer programmers. Possible fixes are to eliminate prerequisites that don't make sense to your game (simply let the skills be purchased as is -- engineers without technician skill will suffer in their job and be unable to perform routine duties without them, etc ...) and/or greatly reduce those prereq's. As far as the pilot thing goes, the pre-req was pretty much laid down in the AD rules even before KH was published. The Operate Machinery subskill of technicians says that you need to be LVL:2 to pilot jetcopters, LVL:4 for air cars, and LVL:6 for shuttles. Hence the LVL:6 tech background for a ship pilot, as that's the next progression (system ships, small starships, etc w/ each pilot level). Astrogators need a healthy background in program manipulation and displaying of information (hence the high computer pre-req). Gunners need a healthy background in trajectory, and the closest thing to that is the corresponding weapon skills. I always felt that in addition to robotics, an engineer should hae a working knowledge of computers as well...such as LVL:1 robotics and LVL:1 computer Perhaps it is this flaw of the AD skill system...that only certain SUBSKILLS are mandated. This may have been one ideal behind the Zebulon Guide splitting up of skills, perhaps their planned future editions were going to cover ship skills with a mere high level Operate Machinery as a pre-req rather than having all the technical skills at a high level. It was something I was experimenting with as well...allowing a character to buy all the subskills at 0 level and improve them individually (at a lower XP expenditure) rather than as a whole. That way one technician would be an accomplished operator, another an accomplished repairman, a third could be an accomplished security systems man, etc I'm quoting this to demonstrate and error for a support issue. |
 November 2, 2007 - 9:47pm | The Star Frontiers 2000 project has a slightly different aproach to character creation and allows for lower levels to qualify for Spacer related skills, including Star Pilot skills. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
November 3, 2007 - 2:36am | what do you guys think about starting a Project specially for this discussion? (compile ideas and come up with a balanced solution) I ask because all you have intimate knowledge and it would be great to pool that knowledge collaboratively. thoughts? Rather than a new project...perhaps in an existing one? Seems it would fit in with AD Expanded. Unbless you think a separate project would be better. Say the word and I'll post what I have on the subskill breakdown (either in ED Ex or I'll open a new project), and we can open the floor from there. |
November 3, 2007 - 12:05pm | what do you guys think about starting a Project specially for this discussion? (compile ideas and come up with a balanced solution) I ask because all you have intimate knowledge and it would be great to pool that knowledge collaboratively. thoughts? Rather than a new project...perhaps in an existing one? Seems it would fit in with AD Expanded. Unbless you think a separate project would be better. Say the word and I'll post what I have on the subskill breakdown (either in ED Ex or I'll open a new project), and we can open the floor from there. Good point SS. One question: Does this belong in the House Rules Wiki or AD Expanded? LOL |
November 3, 2007 - 1:23pm | Well, I suppose I could toss it in the Wiki for starters and we can go from there. |
November 4, 2007 - 9:43am | I would like to see it added to AD Expanded project. Alot of good ideas floating around here. Edit: Looking at the Wiki and the AD Ex, I would think that this would be better placed in the House Rules Wiki. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
November 4, 2007 - 2:26pm | Document created, please visit: Starship Pilots - Begining skill set http://starfrontiers.us/node/1688 |
November 7, 2007 - 2:06pm | Okay I have my skills breakdown posted in the House Rules Wiki: http://starfrontiers.us/node/1769 |
 November 18, 2007 - 12:21pm | How about making starship skills a specialty skill. The Gunnery skill should be more close to robotics as you're not aiming down the length of the laser battery, you're useing it's sights and remotely aiming it as directing a robot drone. And when you consider a laser is not going to have the same trajectory or performance as a projectile in space. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
November 18, 2007 - 1:25pm | How about making starship skills a specialty skill. It's more than that, though. You still need knowledge of the conditions in which the cannon fires, which falls under weapons use. A hand-held gun can have the same equipment as the giant cannon (except for controlling the turret), so I think this is a non-issue, especially since the gunner need not construct or program the weapon. They can know enough to replace and align a barrel or other component, but don't need to know how a computer works, how to fix an engine, or anything about various types of robotic components. They only need to know how to put the one type of technology together (which is why its an advanced skill). Besides, the advanced skills have no PSA.The Gunnery skill should be more close to robotics as you're not aiming down the length of the laser battery, you're useing it's sights and remotely aiming it as directing a robot drone. And when you consider a laser is not going to have the same trajectory or performance as a projectile in space. One thing I don't like though, is the classification of Gunners as "Spacers". Gunners can operate as much on the surface of a planet as a ship in space. |
November 18, 2007 - 3:14pm | That is true, even a tank crew has a gunner. Or even the guys operating a planetary battery would be gunners. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
November 20, 2007 - 12:26pm | So AD rules set up implies that weapon skills also include more sophisticated weapon systems beyond hand held/crew served weapons. That is an interesting angle and it certainly serves the system well (keeping it simple). Though it does have the unwanted effect of automatically creating expert marksman from all gunners. Does Zeb guide have heavy weapon skill as a seperate category? Perhaps that route would be better for gamers who seek a little more seperation between these types of skills. |
November 20, 2007 - 9:03pm | No Zeb guide does not have a heavy weapon skill although it does group projectile, gyrojet and spray weapons into one skill group but has a seperate skill for missiles. Most other RPGs I've played had seperate skills for small arms and heavy weapons and included a skill for vehicle gunnery for good measure. I know you don't want to borrow ideas from other games but SF didn't make any distiction between useing a small arm like a laser rifle and a remote turret mounted heavy laser, seems the rules just assumed the use of both go hand in hand. I'm not completely in agreement with that rules, but when we played Sundown on Starmist many moons ago we allowed for it because other wise no one could operate the hover tank's weapons. And we didn't have any other games to compare rules with for such skills. Now days I'd rather vehicle gunnery be a seperate skill from small arms. It's just they way I run things, and this makes a starship gunner needing a whole new set of rules or just a base gunnery skill. For remote weapons a robot repair skill isn't needed but a robot operate skill would be. This can complicate the rules and skill lists further I know, but to simplify if projectile and gyrojet weapons can just be put into one catagory why not further simplify it as small arms? Which would include all hand held ranged weapons, though not sure if beam weapons could fit into that. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
