 May 12, 2011 - 10:50pm | I had been looking for this comparison for a few days, even if you prefer the flat map of the main book, this says a lot about the scope of that map, and how much is 'missing'. The Solar Neighborhood in 3D Frequently I hear a preference to an evenly squared 100ly, 80ly, or 60ly sector, this is 25 Parsecs/81.5409065 light years. The Frontier Sector is supposed to be more cluttered than this. Yet this still doesn't represent all the class M, T, L, Y, and 'rouge' dark-bodies, that are expected to be in this volume, just those that have been catalogued. Compare the above link to this view, Neighborhood Sphere That shows only some of the Theoretically Most Important stars, in a slightly smaller volume. This is much more like The Frontier Map... yet it is only showing the catalogued exo-planets at the time of it's design... double... triple... the number grows quickly... and The Frontier is still supposed to be more densely packed than this. I find this to be something to consider. The information given in one (or more) of the books suggested that you were free to add as many stars as you like to the map given, that there would be enough room, and further comforted with statements that it is unlikely that that any additions made by future products, would be in exactly the same location as anything you add. I have frequently made references to what I call the "Out-Black"... this is my play on the terms Outback and Deep-Black, from Australian and Firefly references. I consider the Out-Black to be the part of the frontier that isn't on the main maps in AD and Zeb's, but still technically inside the sector and sphere of major influence. The backyard of The Frontier, that isn't fully catalogued and explored, or open to regular traffic, but still technically within the influence of the Core-worlds and the main UPF trade partners, and within the theoretical bounds of the original charters of cooperation... Among these would be the Alpha to Epsilon Quarantine Systems of the Plague, and one 'off-limits' system of the Yazirian's origin conundrum. In my own take on things, I populate this Out-Black very, very, sparsely, with life, but very thickly with 'dark-bodies', 'rouge planets', and 'dwarf systems' that are easy to get to within one or two jumps of any of the established Systems, and furthermore are frequently in motion when compared to them, requiring new astrogation updates to be conducted somewhat frequently. I also include unexplored, quarantined, and unsurveyed main sequences in this nomenclature, worlds that are also populated very sparsely, or those with any viable or significantly old ecosystems. Most of my new species are in the Vast Expanse, a few are in the Capellan Rim, and I have worked a little on The Rift (or something like that, a sparse region) beyond the White Light/Xagyg Gap, but tentatively because it is the area least supported by the information given in the books, only suggesting that the sparse region must be crossed before reaching anything significant, and that it would take at least two jumps to cross at it's narrowest. This also relates to my use of a large Sathar presence that can't be tracked down, Pirates that can't be easily tracked down, the existence of Pilgrim colonies and Separatist compounds of every race, Lost Colonies that have been out of contact for centuries, Rouge Mechanon Factions disappearing in Frontier space to unknown destinations, the occasional Xenoarchaeology find on some previously unknown rock, the occasional tribble or other 'space pet' species of unknown origin, and the limited population of non core-four races occurring on the main map. As far as being a flat map, or a volume sphere, I haven't been stuck to either, nor do I always map by grid or hexes, these are often treated equally in my games. I like having things mapped to both, and I have borrowed heavily from Alternity and Imperial Star-Fire in this area. The main maps from AD and Zeb's are effectively common knowledge by 111fy, and parts of the Rim and Vast have become accessible to anyone seeking the information. Likewise most of the Core metropolitan public records could easily have a data-base catalog in 3d, of every observable body within 3000 parsecs, but astrogation data for even 1% of those is not exactly avaliable publicly, if even at all. No known ship is on public record having traveled further than 50 parsecs(150ly) from Prenglar. Any ship said to have travled over 30 parsecs(90ly) from Prenglar, is frequently suspect to inaccuracy and conspiracy conjecture, like the fabled jump by the old Professor himself, the disappearance of some battleship called the 'Yanmatton' and it's consecutive brief reemergence's in three systems 30Ly separate in under a day, and the supposed sudden disappearance of Captain Jameston of the Ark Ship 'Filia Delphi', and all the Human and Yazirian Colonists that were supposed to be onboard, out near the new Yazirian outpost Weigao of the Tejzes system, but being indentured servants from Liberty, and clanless from Athor, they have no officially traceable public record, besides noone believes half the stuff posted in the Trans Data-Core anyway. It is far more important for the average citizen to keep up with the release-date of that new Holo-Flipz movie coming out '3 Aliens and a Cowboy', than it is to be concerned with the Vauldiiz Corporation's ship that missed it's deceleration window, and flew through the Brixxon Plutonics refuel station at one third Jump Acceleration Speeds, spreading pellets from the station all over the upper orbits of one of Timeon's inhabited Pilgrim Moons, before finally slamming into an outpost planet with terraforming research stations. Originally on it's way to Whorl, with a load of Hassium in stasis pods. For the most part, I find no problems uniting the A to Z (AD to Zeb's)timeline and setting material, in all the books combined, and this expanded extrapolation of that material. If any of this is helpful, kewl, if it brings up more questions, ask. Use, abuse, or ignore, as you find appropriate. But do let me know of anything that works, or of any special circumstances where you think something breaks, and we'll see if anything needs to be addressed. Much of this is related to other topics to some degree, and likely colors my opinions in others: Asteroids, Associations, Clusters, Trojans, & SSBs Beyond Artificial Satellite Stations The Frontier Sector Oort Clouds a Problem? The Crouded Galaxy Void jumping, Physics and Gravity Cargo Calculating jumps Jump Calculations, Travel Time, Etc Pirates on the solar winds and among the asteroid archipellagos TSR had plans to reveal the homeworlds of the Core four Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 May 13, 2011 - 8:13am | I dig the Out-Black concept TSC. That would make sense, and it allows a GM some wiggle room as to adventure placement. Nice. I've always tried to balance reality with simplicity in my campaign. I feel if I make the game too complex, the game is slowed and everyone feels like they just went through a 5 hour course in theoretical physics. If I make things too simple, I run into obvious problems like a player saying 'a detonating nuke would do MUCH more damage than that' or other game decisions that become a theoretical disagreement in physics. Gonna delve into the Calc Jumps links you provided. It's actually timely for something that I've been working on. Thanks! My SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
March 4, 2012 - 6:29am | Yeah, the theoretical physics of the game system, should flow with the ease that the setting alludes to. Though most games with a hook-able setting, have a ton of those theoretical applications, and they all need to remain consistent. That's why it takes teams of people months or years to develop anything into a publishable form, or you get one box and a couple supplements with no further support, and 10,000 disgruntled interpretations. Something I have noted on FTL that seems to be frequently missed... The various stated 'limits' that Frontier Technology based FTL has as Jump Ranges: 10ly (AD - maximum listed safe routes - likely the maximum commercially insurable) 15ly (KH maximum assumed safe jump at any skill level) 24ly (KH maximum listed jump distance before a misjump is guaranteed) ~30ly (maximum distance a ship can jump before red-lining engines to a nigh-guaranteed catastrophic system failure -and/or- incurring horrific miscalculations, known to cause sudden accidental severe population reduction impacts. Very Likely Illegal and/or highly frowned upon.) ~100ly (A Theoretical Maximum Dimensionally Stable Jump Distance - Atomic Degeneration Limit - Quantum Flux Material Dispersal - POINT OF NO RETURN) The Routes marked on the map are merely lines of common insured traffic, specifically used for commercial transports, and not the only existent routes, nor the "get us out of here quick!" routes open to private charter transports. What this means is that Jump Ranges and Spheres of Influence are applicable, and most of the frontier is within range of astronomical surveys and astrophysics observation missions, with originating stations on some claimed system in the frontier. Everywhere in the frontier IS easily mapped and cataloged... just not frequently visited... but Astrogation for safe travel to a given point isn't always available without extensive and well trusted sources of data. A route still needs to be repeatedly surveyed to be considered Safe and Insurable for commercial traffic. So the likelihood of getting a manned probe to a location at maximum jump is low, and the idea of risking a crew for anything over short jumps of a few ly, is considered too risky for most people to financially guarantee... still there are those adventurous types... My take on this is, special survey ships are required to scout along new routes, and may need to make multiple passes, until they can work up to a single jump in a safe manner, before the route can be considered truly 'open' to commercial traffic. Risk jumping through a direct unsurveyed route is still possible, just not easily insurable... and therefore not a legally chartered mission. Thus; the 'offical' 1-15ly max-jump routes are likely added slowly to the maps, and will change or routes can be 'closed' as the Astrogation Data itself changes. Over the years the capability of the FTL drives and Astrogation techniques have advanced speeding up the process, twice in frontier history the technology and boundaries of exploration advanced faster than the logistics of survey and exploration services, or the administration of traffic controls, have been able to keep up. The first was in the later part of the Age of Adventure, and allowed the Privateer Class ships to become a viable interstellar transport - and also caused the PGC hold on the Vast Expanse and Yazirian subsector to falter. The second era of such expansion has occurred in just the last few decades prior to 111fy, and the full effect hasn't been determined yet in the timeline. By 111fy there should be more available routes into the Rim and the Vast, that can be picked up by those requesting the data, but due to political maneuverings of the mega-corps, changes in exploration and expansion philosophy due to the threats in unknown space, and the general logistics of keeping up with everything, these routes are not officially sanctioned for commercial traffic, and often come with heavy fines, and customs searches, for any ship coming from those routes back into the main routes, without proper documentations and charters. The PGC stands to gain a second wind for it's Exploration and Trade Partner Contact fleet, in this current environment, and has begun stepping up activity into (and even just beyond) The Vast Expanse. The CFM are pretty solidly rooted into the Rim, and have no threat to that monopoly, but the UPF has had some leap-frogging success, and passed the near Rim for the Deeper Rim. TT is rather stuck, and only really has hopes to run around Star-law and The Gap via the Liberty routes, to gain some long-shot advantage over VMPI and PGC, or hook onto surveys of The Deeper Rim under UPF and SF contracts and leap-frog the CFM. The Yazirian colonial initiative is still pushing into the Vast Expanse, and the Vrusk are still scrambling at any opportunity to gain a foot-hold beyond the Xagyg, both are ignoring Council suggestions to refrain from; "expanding too quickly" and "awakening new threats" when the state of the Sathar, Mechanon, Plague Worlds, and various discussions of some ancient war between 'god-like' precursors, have yet to be determined. [edited for confirmed findings] Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 May 13, 2011 - 2:37pm | Your saying a ship could jump into parts unknown, get hijacked and run the risk of undesirables getting frontier jump routes? Cool. |
May 14, 2011 - 7:21pm | Sectors, I have changed back and forth, between two forms, the 100x100LY Sectors, and 31x31x31 Hex Parsec spheres... there is less than one light year discrepancy between these. I was playing with this map, as I have been needing to reconstruct my files. The Xagyg Sector, The Gap Sector, The Vast Sector, The Capellan Sector, all surround The Frontier yet are not officially recognized as Sectors, as a specific center-point is still in debate. An apropreate star has not been selected for these Sectors yet, and some worry that it should wait to be an important administrative hub, others that it should be the closest to center-volume, and still others are inclined to place it center of the local clusters mass. Thus the maps are constantly deliberated over and changing, even if they are occasionally released. The Frontier Sector is Centered on Prenglar, but the exact dimensions are in dispute. Anything from 20 parsecs to 100 light years from Prenglar, is said to be In The Rim, and being 'In The Rim' has become a common phrase, the same as saying ambiguous, undecided, or temporarily misplaced. Two other Sectors are recognized beyond the Vast Expanse, and one past The Gap. But no physical explorations are conducted by the UPF farther than two sectors (approximately 60 parsecs or 200ly) from Prenglar. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
November 9, 2013 - 6:16am | @w00t, in the simplified form of that question, Yes.  Parts unknown, being representative of parts unsurveyed. and 'Frontier Jump Routes' being, 'Abstracted Logistics Data' and the most recently used Astrogation Data. But how long that data will remain useful depends on the purpose of it's use, and getting 'lost' is neither that difficult, nor a definite dead-end. It may be useful for a corporation or large organization to hoard Astrogation Data for some purpose, but not individuals. There is usually plenty of spacer's honor among the little guys that (like on the open sea) most of the time a ship in distress will find aid if it asks.. after all that guy might be the one saving you next time. Getting a fix on your current location is simple, any spacer with a year of basic star knowledge and advanced math could do it, and computers can pinpoint location with relative ease without a lot of fancy software. It is the Route Data that is the Astrogation component, not the End Points location data. End Points are a necessary, but minor part, of the Astrogation Route Data. So, if you become 'risk jump lost', just figure out where you are, and proceed with an attempt to become 'risk jump found', or just become 'risk jump lost' again somewhere else, with another failure. Route Data is dynamic, the elements along a route are all in motion, and the particulars of a route are dependent on the ships current specifications. The Idea of being 'lost' is a misnomer, as is 'parts-unknown' because most of the galaxy can be referenced with high-precision on a 3D Map, whether it has been physically surveyed up close or not. It is difficult for a star to 'hide' it's location from a multi-stellar civilization. Planets out to a few hundred light-years are also easier to spot by a multi-stellar civilization, quite likely further. So, maps are possible with very high-detail, of regions yet to be physically visited, and few parts of the Galaxy are completely unknown. Astrogation Route Data being dynamic and ship specific, and the average lone ship not having a lot of information about what other current movements are being made by commerce and military, even Frontier Route Logistics Data isn't more useful than direct observation, via long range estimations, and intercepted subspace transmissions. But sure, it could be done that way too, and that offers the 'human' element for some adventure hook, but the same information gets into 'undesirable' hands anyway. In space there is nowhere to hide, and no one can hear you scream... muh huhuha Selling Astrogation Data is not just about the data of the route taken, it is also about having data of views from beyond the ground stations, so that research can be conducted on comparisons and triangulations made, discrepancies can be corrected or debated, and the over all Astrogation Data and Galactic Cartography stays current. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
May 14, 2011 - 7:38pm | straying a bit off my original topic... huh? Just to take a moment in realizing that this has been an almost stream-of-consciousness ramble, and may continue to be, to restate the point that if you don't like what I have said, I am not saying you have to. I have been commenting a little in areas that are of frequent debate, and I am probably going to ramble more on such topics. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 May 15, 2011 - 8:43pm | Sometimes things get names originating with things that dont really make logical sense I would say that the map we have of the Frontier, from Zebs is the Frontier sector- why? Because. and yet within that map there would be an area called the Capellan Sub-sector as for size pretty much the map as it is is the sector- or a square or hex 50ly on a side is the sector I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 15, 2011 - 9:49pm | Yeah, I agree with that... Each of the systems on the map, are pretty much the center of their own sub-sector, a sub-sector, and each approximating the surrounding 5 to 10ly, or 1 to 5 parsecs, depending on who in the frontier is doing the counting at the time you ask. For official mapping, however, a sub-sector has a definition to cartographers as being one of the sub-sets of the volume of the given area of a sector... but who cares about geometry... when there is gold in them thar 'roids... an' when it be durn turn'd out a ton of federanium i'll jus 'ire me a new chart-maker to fis'me up a new map.  For the purpose of centering a map of non stable geography, on a stable point, Prenglar is the center of the Frontier Sector, but not necessarily the "Frontier Sector" shown in the quick map view given in the books, for that givin purpose, as stated in the material. (and irrelevant to the flat map vs. volume sphere or cube, that are all valid mapping forms that can be used by the frontier citizens, for different reasons.) Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
May 23, 2011 - 8:10am | Since: volume = height x base Since: x sq + y sq + z sq = distance sq Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 March 4, 2012 - 9:39pm | @TSC, Your "rambling" through your thought process was quite interesting. Very thought provoking. I will have to reread and digest more. |
October 23, 2013 - 4:11am |  ...privateers ...they don't all have to be pirates! Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 October 24, 2013 - 7:46pm | LOL, and the routes (if safe) are worth money $$. There would be trailblazers. That could be several adventures in tis own right! |
November 9, 2013 - 6:43am | Determining the safety of specific routes is more about insurance claims, and statistical risk assessments, than anything to do with making a jump... it's a bureaucratic decision more than a survey ship's declaration of a successful passage.
In space, everything is in motion, no static maps of sector sizes are useful in the terms of guaranteed insurances, beyond a few months to a few years... at the most.
Astrogation Cartographic Data is about pinpointing Coordinates and Vectors of specific bodies of significance. This can be done from ground and orbit stations observing and sharing data, and is accurate out to several thousand light years without launching a single interstellar ship or probe. Accurate maps out to 3000ly are easily accessible from the public records of any starport library.
Astrogation Route Data is determined by assessing the safety of all possible paths between two points, and determining the schedule for automating the drive to ensure the best course with least likelihood of encountering unknown interstellar bodies. These are available based on official traffic routes, determined by the insurance and government interests of local economies.
Astrogation Survey Data is accumulated by direct observations made in route. Ship observations update more accurate information about smaller and darker interstellar bodies. The data acquired from ships that have made a recent transit is useful, even valuable... but not especially useful as "Safe Route" data until processing with multiple sources through good computers becomes viable. The more openly traveled the route, the more saturated needed observation data becomes... conversely, the less openly traveled the route, the less observation data can be correlated with other sources for processing. It can be hoarded, sold, traded, or automatically transfered to defer costs of basic docking services. Average Traffic route and Restricted Traffic route observations is more valuable than Common Commercial routes with easily intercepted transmissions, or rarely traveled routes with little correlating data to process. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
guess it's less of a topic and more of a ramble.