 December 30, 2017 - 6:10pm |
A few months ago, Jedion posted a treasure trove of old Dragon magazine articles in one PDF on this site. One of them was a story called “Jetboots don’t fail me now!” by Charles A. Venelli that was in the November 1988 issue of Dragon Magazine. You can see a separate PDF of this original story here: http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/9954 Vanelli offers an alternative way to calculate a character’s movement rate and his story begins with this vignette: Player (whose character; a space-station security guard, has unexpectedly discovered an intruder in a storage area): “I back away, drawing my nightstick.” Referee: “Great, because the guy takes off the moment he sees you. He’s carrying a box from the storeroom.” Player: “I chase after him! When I catch up, I’ll smack him with my nightstick! I move at 30 meters per turn.” Referee: “Being a human, the intruder also runs at 30 meters per turn.” Player: “Well, then, how am I gonna catch him?” Good question. Unless the intruder happens to slip on a convenient banana peel or other unforeseen obstacle, the poor security guard may never get his man. Here we see evidence of a flaw in the STAR FRONTIERS® game, in that all beings of the same race run at the same rate of speed. The problem, however, is not just limited to running or walking; it also applies to swimming, climbing, and just about every other movement task that a character might attempt. In the STAR FRONTIERS game, all creatures are given a set of movement rates which are dependent only upon the races of the creatures involved. Thus, every Human in the Frontier runs just as fast as every other Human. The same can be said for Yazirians, Dralasites, and every other known race. Obviously, this just isn’t the case. Any decent member of an Olympic track team could beat the socks off the average person on Earth in a foot race, yet the current movement system would not allow this. Since all characters are not created equal in the STAR FRONTIERS game system, all speeds should not be equal. Speed should be based upon the basic attribute scores of a character and the character.s race. (Obviously, a Dralasite cannot run as fast as a Vrusk.) Vanelli then proceeds to offer a diversified movement rate system based on the average of a character’s strength and reaction speed. “The Strength score is used in the MRM because a character’s speed and quickness are based upon the strength of the muscles within that character’s limbs,” Vanelli wrote. “The Reaction Speed score is used because, by definition, it is a measure of a person’s quickness.” By taking the average of Strength and Reaction Speed, you create a Movement Rate Modifier, then use a series of somewhat complicated charts (of which I think there are some typos in the statistics) to calculate a character’s speed. Joe Cabadas |
January 31, 2018 - 9:32pm | I am reluctant to comment on most things, I usually just give an idea here or there. Tone is notoriously difficult to transmit in writing. But that is not very useful when you are developing ideas. It still feels like alot of rules,which is a problem I am trying to address more and more in my own rules (thank you Tom for pointing that out). That was one of my problems with the original Jetboots article. I do however think it is an improvement over Jetboots. I think if it is streamlined a bit, it will work very well. For instance, I don't know if you need the cumulative reduction in temporary reductions of speed, it might be enough to just use the limits of stamina, and any failed roll means you can't sprint again till you rest. Also, myself, I would rather worry about only about walking, running and jumping, and then only as one number each, and not break them out in multiple stats. That is a worthwhile suggestion. Thanks Joe Cabadas |
February 1, 2018 - 12:06pm | It still feels like alot of rules,which is a problem I am trying to address more and more in my own rules (thank you Tom for pointing that out). ... Also, myself, I would rather worry about only about walking, running and jumping, and then only as one number each, and not break them out in multiple stats. Yes you do have a point here. The rules as they exist tend to treat all races equally except when it comes to walking and running. As noted, these are optional rules. Something to use in special circumstances rather than bog down normal play. But, I was just trying to simplify the original Jetboots story which has some typos in it. Joe Cabadas |
February 1, 2018 - 6:01pm | Part of my rational for the declining chance for a character to keep sprinting is to prevent abuse. If you have a character with a high strength score -- or if you want to use STA instead -- then they would have a high chance of continuing an emergency dash. But I am still thinking about your idea. I do appreciate feedback. Joe Cabadas |
 February 1, 2018 - 6:10pm | When I am fiddling around with rules, I try to graph out the results in excel, and kind of see where things fall in the distribution. I think I will try and do that tonight, and see how big a difference their is to each approach. |
February 1, 2018 - 6:10pm | When I am fiddling around with rules, I try to graph out the results in excel, and kind of see where things fall in the distribution. I think I will try and do that tonight, and see how big a difference their is to each approach. |
February 1, 2018 - 6:15pm | I hate when this thing posts comments twice |
February 1, 2018 - 7:45pm | I hate when this thing posts comments twice Not to worry. I've had that happen too. Joe Cabadas |
February 1, 2018 - 9:40pm | So looking at it, you would get basically the same results if RS to get an extra 5 meter square (4 in your system), or two 2 meter squares. The chance of success would be the same on the first turn, within 2 percent on the second turn, 3 percent the third turn, 2 percent the fourth turn, 1 percent for the fifth and sixth turn, and after that, no difference. |
February 1, 2018 - 10:13pm |
What about simplifying he base formula for running by say add Strength and RS and dividing by 5 and adding modifier; -5 for ifshnits, +10m for humans and yazirians, +15 for Humma and Vrusk, and +40 for Osakar. It is easier than going up and down a base score. Unfortunately, it gets a bit screwy with walking and hiking. I messed around with it a bit, wanting to divide by 10 and add a modifier for walking and by 20 for hiking, but it leads to some really low numbers for dralasites and ifshnits. |
February 1, 2018 - 10:16pm | Thinking about it more, that last suggestion does not really simplify it much more. |
February 3, 2018 - 11:43pm |
I suppose I should point out what I think is wrong with Charles Vanelli’s original “Jetboots” article and why I think it has a typo in it. Vanelli’s altered movement system for Star Frontiers really isn’t too complicated. It calls for taking the average of a character’s STR and RS scores, divide that number by 10 and then round down. So, for a Yazarian with an STR score of 35 and an RS score of 50, that adds up to 85, divided by two to get the average of 43, divided by 10, you get 4.2 R1 (you know, a remainder of 1), rounded down it’s a 4 for the Movement Rate Modifier. It would probably simplier to just divide the 85 by 20 to get to the same number. You then take the character’s MRM number and add it to the “Base Movement Values by Race” charts and here is where the problem comes in. I’ve reproduced chart one below.
If you add the average Yazarian’s MRM score of 4 to the base movement value for walking in the chart above, the character would only have a walking speed of 6.5 meters per turn, far short of the 10 meter per turn average for that race while the poor Yaz would only be able to run at 11.5 meters per turn. Something is wrong with this original chart… which is borne out by an example that Vanelli gave in his story: For example: Rufinkel, a Yazarian, has a Strength score of 55 and a Reaction Speed score of 60. His MRM would then be 5 (the average of 55 and 60 is 57.5; dividing by 10 gives 5.75, rounded down to 5). Consulting Table 1, Rufinkel walks at the rate of 12.5 meters per turn, and hikes a the rate of 5 kilometers per hour… Whoa! Wait a minute, his example doesn’t match the chart given in his story. I think the “Running” column in Table 1 is actually the one that should be used to determine the Yazarian’s base walking rate… So I should assume that all the numbers in the “Running” column of Table 1 should actually be the base walking number, right? I don’t think so. An average Human should have a MRM of 4 under Vanelli’s system and should just walk at a rate of 10 meters per turn. But, if I add 4 to a base walking rate of 7.5 (as given by Table 1 if the “Running” column is actually the “Walking” number) well an ordinary Human would be walking at 11.5 meters per turn. I may be wrong, but you would think the average Human or Vrusk or Dral or Yaz would walk and run at the rates given in the Alpha Dawn rules. So, this is why I’ve tried to create a system where you can assume a character with average stats would walk and run at the rates given under the Alpha Dawn racial descriptions. <!--[if gte mso 9]>Joe Cabadas | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
February 3, 2018 - 11:49pm | Thinking about it more, that last suggestion does not really simplify it much more. Well, we are trying to salvage an idea that I think the editors of Dragon magazine messed up a while ago and never printed a correction. My idea is that if a character has lower stats than average not to penalize them too much... whether the system I propose actually accomplished that is a different story... after all, who wants to have an adventurer who needs a walker to get around in? But then maybe that's why powered exoskeletons were created. I allow for faster running movement to similuate how someone in better athletic shape can run that 100 meter race in 10 seconds... or kind of move a bit faster. (And I am not disparaging anyone who needs to use a walker! My father is using one and my mother-in-law needs one on occassion.) Joe Cabadas |
February 3, 2018 - 11:52pm | Back to movement rates, just to reiterate this point. The average character should be able to walk and run at the rates given for their racial description. An average Dralasite walks at 5 meters per turn, has a maximum run speed of 20 meters per turn, and hikes at 3 kilometers per hour, etc. That's why I try to base any movement rate modifiers off of the racial baseline. Joe Cabadas |
 February 5, 2018 - 5:23pm | Did they address the type-O in a subsequent stat questions in the Ares section of Dragon? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 6, 2018 - 6:11am | Did they address the type-O in a subsequent stat questions in the Ares section of Dragon? Not that I've noticed. I've downloaded a number of Dragon mag PDFs... and the Ares section only lasted so long in it. Should I try to salvage the original movement rate modifier system? Or does my alternative make any sense to you? (I'm not saying it's 100% OK yet.) Joe Cabadas |
February 7, 2018 - 6:44am | Did they address the type-O in a subsequent stat questions in the Ares section of Dragon? Not that I've noticed. I've downloaded a number of Dragon mag PDFs... and the Ares section only lasted so long in it. Should I try to salvage the original movement rate modifier system? Or does my alternative make any sense to you? (I'm not saying it's 100% OK yet.) did you preserve the idea behind the comment in AD about dralasites that even though slower in movement are able to keep up with a mix group. It doesn't look like it in your hiking rate. which I'm assuming relates to AD's hourly? I think this should be preserved in a modification. Mixed Parities A party that contains a mixture of races can travel 5km/hour if it does not include yazirians, 4KM/hour if it does. (Because of their high stamina dralasites can keep up if they must.) I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 7, 2018 - 8:04am | Yes, I would still presume that Dralasites can keep up. I'll make sure it's reflected in these rules. Joe Cabadas |
February 7, 2018 - 8:04am | Yes, I would still presume that Dralasites can keep up. I'll make sure it's reflected in these rules. Joe Cabadas |
February 7, 2018 - 10:05am | Ok: true confessions ive purely been lightly monitoring this thread not critically going over it. Some thought: can the humma even climb? Ive done climbing with ropes and harnesses as well as rapelling and i dont see the humma climbing, at least not wothout some seriously specialized equipment. If nothing else the ifshnit should be faster climbers then the humma. I may be trading on the monkey motiff here but yazirian should be natural born climbers not equal with every one else who's good at it they should get a .6 for climbing in my opinion. Dralasites: strength, stamina and flexible versatility: feels like they should do better at climbing. Vrusk are going to suck at this worse than ifshnit better then humma IMO. Sathar look good to me. Crawling: its one of those awkward activities. But i think drals should get an advantage here, if nothing they can roll and that would count as a crawl and it would have the benefit of continuous motion. Vrusk & humma look goid for crawling but dont see why ifshnit are so slow at it. Swimming? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 7, 2018 - 10:16am | Dear Jedion: Can a Humma climb? Now that is a good question! I don't know. Ifshnits as faster climbers than Humma... Yeah! Maybe the Humma should get a big climbing disadvantage due to their hopping ability. Vrusk: You don't think their many limbs might give them an advantage? I think that would balance out by giving them a huge disadvantage in swimming. A Dral climbing advantage? Not a bad idea. Yazarians: I thought I gave them a bump on climbing, but I'll reread things. Thanks for a better look than skimming the topic. Joe Cabadas |
 February 7, 2018 - 11:32am | climbing. Vrusk are going to suck at this worse than ifshnit better then humma IMO. Vrusks are bugs and any bug has no problem scuttling up a wall, to this end I would posit they are the superior climbers. Followed naturally by yazirians, with the exception being Pitr Barcer, the teen-aged yazirian who was bitten by a radioactive spider and prowls the town in his vigilante garb known as the Amazing Spider Monkey. He climbs better than anyone. |
February 7, 2018 - 12:43pm | climbing. Vrusk are going to suck at this worse than ifshnit better then humma IMO. Vrusks are bugs and any bug has no problem scuttling up a wall, to this end I would posit they are the superior climbers. Followed naturally by yazirians, with the exception being Pitr Barcer, the teen-aged yazirian who was bitten by a radioactive spider and prowls the town in his vigilante garb known as the Amazing Spider Monkey. He climbs better than anyone. vrusk really aren't just bugs, a bug or insect has just a external skeleton but vrusk are different. My thought on vrusk and climbing is that arrangement of the extra legs and abdomen suggest to me that they would be off ballance while climbing. Rock climbing is all about center of balance. but we've had other discussions about them being/not being flexible at the waist so... I could roll with them not being bad climbers and the anatomy of their hands would certainly give them better grip than a human on a grab hold however the human hand will have the advantage on jamming fingers into cracks. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 7, 2018 - 1:12pm | Well let's look at a typical picture of a Vrusk. They have all of these pointy "toes" at the end of their feet. I think these toes are jointed. So methinks that would allow them to grip things like trees or walls. Now, would that help them in "rope climbing"? It looks like they could probably bend their legs inward for just such a trick. So, I would be inclined to think of them as natural climbers. Swimming, though, is not their forte. I wonder if they would swim upside down if push comes to shove? Not the best way but not all of them would have an "abdomen snorkle bag" available when wading into water. I'd really hate to be a Vrusk and take a spill while whitewater rafting.  Joe Cabadas |
February 7, 2018 - 1:17pm | Another thought about Dralasites... not dealing with movement, but with the Eleanor Moraes module. All the races need to wear special masks because of the tainted atmosphere. But, since Drals are so much different than the other three Core Four races, seeing that they breathe through their skin, shouldn't they be a bit more tolerant of alternative atmospheres? Joe Cabadas |
February 7, 2018 - 1:28pm | I'm still wondering if I should try to make some movement charts that are closer to Charles Venelli's system. I mean, getting the average of a character's STR and RS isn't hard to do and then divide that number by 10... Maybe round up or down to the nearest whole number rather than rounding it off... and make sure that the average character of a certain race moves at that race's average speed. Crawling should be about one-fourth of the walking rate... anyway, still thinking about it. Joe Cabadas |
 February 7, 2018 - 1:47pm | Another thought about Dralasites... not dealing with movement, but with the Eleanor Moraes module.
All the races need to wear special masks because of the tainted atmosphere. But, since Drals are so much different than the other three Core Four races, seeing that they breathe through their skin, shouldn't they be a bit more tolerant of alternative atmospheres? On the other pseudopod, Dralasites can't breathe underwater, and do use scents and odors as part of their communication they might be more sensitive to alternative atmospheres. I think it would really depend on what the atmospheric taint is. Dust would likely bother a Dral less, amonia more. It would be a fun game trait to allow that rough skin to act as a built-in natural gas mask for Drals though. Then there are the Vrusk with all those abdominal breathing spiricals, they might be the most atmospherically sensitive. |
February 7, 2018 - 3:55pm | I agree, the spiricals would make the diffusion of atmosphereic gases into the body quicker. The vrusk spiricals have lots of other implications. In thin atmosphere, or when fatigued, they would open more to increase respiration, leading to increased water loss in the body, unless the vrusk have an internal airsac system(hard to tell from the picture), which has its own interesting implications. The use of spiricals would also suggest that the Vrusk homeworld was high in oxygen. |
February 8, 2018 - 12:21am | Swimming, though, is not their forte. I wonder if they would swim upside down if push comes to shove? Not the best way but not all of them would have an "abdomen snorkle bag" available when wading into water. There is canon text stating that swimming is not their forte due to their under-belly breathing. I envision them performing the equivalent of a back stroke for such endeavors, bending their torso from centaur stance to a straight/flat position and scuttling along with their ten limbs propelling them. Since they wouldn't be able to shape their hands into a flat palm like humans and yazirians can, those equi-distant digits that make climbing so naturally easy would also hinder them in the water much like a human would if they tried swimming with their fingers all stretched out/extanded instead of the more efficient paddle-palm. |
February 8, 2018 - 8:05am | Swimming, though, is not their forte. I wonder if they would swim upside down if push comes to shove? Not the best way but not all of them would have an "abdomen snorkle bag" available when wading into water. There is canon text stating that swimming is not their forte due to their under-belly breathing. I envision them performing the equivalent of a back stroke for such endeavors, bending their torso from centaur stance to a straight/flat position and scuttling along with their ten limbs propelling them. Since they wouldn't be able to shape their hands into a flat palm like humans and yazirians can, those equi-distant digits that make climbing so naturally easy would also hinder them in the water much like a human would if they tried swimming with their fingers all stretched out/extanded instead of the more efficient paddle-palm. I've envisioned much the same about them swimming on their back. I also assume they have descent control over their spiracles so as to keep water out when it washes over the abdomen during swimming on the back. As for swimming mechanics I think with their double jointedness they will be able to perform an effective kick with all 8 legs in unison that would look like a squid or a frog sort of kick. No doubt they have swim flippers for the hands that are probably used in conjunction with a pair of flippers for the hind most legs at least. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 8, 2018 - 8:30am | Can Humma climb? Hmmm. Let's look at them. Their arm's aren't very powerful looking though their legs are.  The tail is very powerful too though I can't see it used for climbing... hanging on to things, sure, but not climbing...  While they can climb ladders, I can't see them climbing a rope, except very, very slowly. Humma can jump but can't climb like the monkey men -- Humans and Yazarians. Joe Cabadas |
