 January 21, 2017 - 12:02am | Has anyone implemented the "Tote That Barge" material by Matt Bandy in Dragon Magazine #107 in their Star Frontiers game? If so, what worked, what didn't, and what did you have to fix to make it really go? Does anyone have a spreadsheet setup to do the heavy lift of the calculations? What procedure or steps did you come up with to run it? IMPORT TABLE One of the interesting things to note is that the distance between star systems, or planets within the same system does not seem to have much of an impact on the Frontier prices due to the nature of the Void Jump. The time spent getting from point A to point B will be within the same minimum and maximum bounds based on jump calculation time and could basically become factored in as a relatively stable fixed cost. Where distance DOES matter is when there are multiple Void jumps between the source and destination trade route on the map ... vitally important to shipping agricultural cargos with spoilage rates. The Tote that Barge import table contains a number multi-hop routes such as: Gruna Garu/Hargut imports 30% agriculture from Scree Fron/Hakosoar, which is 2 hops away via Araks, for a total of 20ly - doubling the time needed to ship the cargo end to end. Prenglar/Gran Quivera imports 50% agriculture from K'aken Kar/Ken'zah Kit which is 4 hops away for 29ly Same goes goes Morgaine's World. This is where Void jumping Ag ships can really come into their own. And the worst is the trade route from Kizk'-Kar/Zik-kit (MIR) importing 20% industrial from Madderly's Star/Kdikit (MIA). Why is Zik-kit (MIR) importing from Kdikit (MIA) unless Zik-Kit is not able to supply 100% of its own Industrial needs... from its own Industrial center? (but exports 70% industrial to Ken'zah Kit...) And, why would they choose to import from a system 4 hops away over 24 or 26ly... when they could go to Fromeltar/Terledrom (HI) much more quickly? PRODUCTION/CONSUMPTION Finally, the article has *nothing* about production/consumption by the worlds themselves. You just sort of half to assume they produce any missing percentages they are not importing, along with some extras to have something to export. THE MISSING EXPORT TABLE The Import Table only lists the "demand" side of the equation. It's a lot more work to find out all of the different things a given Frontier world/system exports. I've put together an Export Table by reversing the Import table to save everyone the trouble in order to sort out the supply side of the situation world by world for handy reference. I call it the 61 FY version since Tote That Barge did not contain any new worlds from the modules or Zebulon's guide, basically matching the map from Dramune Run set in 61 FY. Also, K'tsa-Kar/Kawdl-kit and Zebulon/Volturnus were not included in Tote That Barge, which was obviously based on the Alpha Dawn Expanded Rules p50 The Frontier Worlds table. 61 FY TOTE THAT BARGE EXPORT TABLE Araks/Hentz supplies 30% industrial products to Gruna Garu/Hargut Araks/Hentz supplies 90% industrial products to Athor/Yast Athor/Yast supplies 50% agricultural products to Araks/Hentz Cassidine/Rupert's Hole supplies 25% agricultural products to Cassidine/Triad Cassidine/Triad supplies 10% industrial products to White Light/Clarion Dramune/Inner Reach supplies 40% agricultural products to Cassidine/Triad Dramune/Inner Reach supplies 95% agricultural products to Dramune/Outer Reach Dramune/Outer Reach supplies 75% raw materials to Cassidine/Triad Dramune/Outer Reach supplies 85% raw materials to Cassidine/Rupert's Hole Dramune/Outer Reach supplies 85% raw materials to Dramune/Inner Reach Fromeltar/Groth supplies 20% agricultural products to Fromeltar/Terledrom Fromeltar/Terledrom supplies 90% industrial products to Fromeltar/Groth Gruna Garu/Hargut supplies 40% raw materials to Scree Fron/Hakosoar Gruna Garu/Hargut supplies 90% raw materials to Araks/Hentz K'aken-Kar/Ken'zah Kit supplies 10% agricultural products to White Light/Clarion K'aken-Kar/Ken'zah Kit supplies 50% agricultural products to Morgaine's K'aken-Kar/Ken'zah Kit supplies 50% agricultural products to Prenglar/Gran Quivera Kizk'-Kar/Zik-kit supplies 70% industrial products to K'aken-Kar/Ken'zah Kit Kizk'-Kar/Zik-kit supplies 75% raw materials to Fromeltar/Terledrom K'tsa-Kar/Kawdl-kit Missing Madderly's Star/Kdikit supplies 10% agricultural products to Timeon/Lossend Madderly's Star/Kdikit supplies 20% agricultural products to Theseus/Minotaur Madderly's Star/Kdikit supplies 20% industrial products to Kizk'-Kar/Zik-kit Madderly's Star/Kdikit supplies 25% agricultural products to Cassidine/Triad Madderly's Star/Kdikit supplies 30% agricultural products to White Light/Clarion PGC Ag Ships supplies 15% agricultural products to Gruna Garu/Hargut Prenglar/Gran Quivera supplies 100% industrial products to Prenglar/Morgaine's World Prenglar/Gran Quivera supplies 30% industrial products to Gruna Garu/Hargut Prenglar/Gran Quivera supplies 95% industrial products to Dixon's Star/Laco Scree Fron/Hakosoar supplies 15% agricultural products to Araks/Hentz Scree Fron/Hakosoar supplies 30% agricultural products to Gruna Garu/Hargut Scree Fron/Hakosoar supplies 60% industrial products to Hristan Theseus/Minotaur supplies 20% industrial products to White Light/Clarion Timeon/Lossend supplies 40% industrial products to White Light/Clarion Truane's Star/New Pale supplies 90% agricultural products to Truane's Star/Pale Truane's Star/Pale supplies 85% industrial products to Truane's Star/New Pale White Light/Clarion supplies 30% raw materials to Timeon/Lossend White Light/Clarion supplies 60% raw materials to Prenglar/Gran Quivera White Light/Clarion supplies 70% raw materials to Madderly's Star/Kdikit White Light/Clarion supplies 75% raw materials to Theseus/Minotaur Zebulon/Volturnus Missing |
 January 21, 2017 - 6:58am | With the existance of the ill defined stasis field in Star Frontiers (a KHs defensive screen) would not ag goods be shipped utilitizing this technology so that there would be no spoilage? similar to the cold storage transport of sapient beings it would seem to me that stasis field technolgoy would have applications for storage- ag goods dont spoil, military equipment stored for decades and still has that new hover car smell - seals and gaskets will degrade over time so if a stasis field effect is anything like what its name suggests then I can see numerous applications. Other threads have argued out the issue of whether the UPF is a government. The cannon view being it isn't but more of a treaty organization like NATO. The economics dont make a lot of sense to me but if Ground Fleet had purchased tanks and stored them in stasis fields for decades till needed for war then the economics look a little better- no ongoing maintenance costs- an item purchased and stored decades before is ready to go as if fresh off the production line. All that is required to support a Ground Fleet equipment depot is a nuclear reactor. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 21, 2017 - 10:13am | Well, the economics of the Star Frontiers system never quite made sense to me, especially when it comes to transporting goods long distances. Also, TerlObar (aka Tom Stephens) had noted elsewhere that the cargo carrying capacity of freighters and other ships really needs to change as they increase in hull size. I'll have to find that discussion thread because I cannot adequately explain it myself at the moment. As for your thought here: "Why is Zik-kit (MIR) importing from Kdikit (MIA) unless Zik-Kit is not able to supply 100% of its own Industrial needs... from its own Industrial center? (but exports 70% industrial to Ken'zah Kit...)" Maybe that is the key. Perhaps Kdikit's trade houses (it's a Vrusk world after all) have proprietary technology or manufacture propretary components that Zik-kit doesn't have or can't legally manufacturer or copy themselves (due to those pesky, complicated Vrusk trademark rules). Jedion: Ah, I like your stasis field idea. Joe Cabadas |
January 21, 2017 - 10:55am | @jedion357 without any details in KH about the "stasis screen" other than a table entry, its hard to say. It could be the field is outside the hull only, and putting a body into stasis stops it irrevocably. Hard to want to base huge game design decisions on so little information. The stasis screen also sound seperate (to me) than the frozen storage and shipping of people. But, people can take it without damage - doesn't mean that produce could, and who wants wilted space lettuce? Maybe stasis screens only work on inorganics, and freeze fields on organics? Some good food for thought here to try to sort out for my game. Things always get more interesting when they have limits and complications to work around. IMO, the UPF is like the organizations that run all of the international treaties for cooperation and use of the sea. The UPF's jurisdiction stops at the Karman Line, as it were, except for Star Law which has been granted planetary authority and jurisdiction over Sathar anti-incursion on most worlds, and maybe the MSO if you use them, especially during planetary outbreaks. So, more than just a treaty organization, quasi-governmental, but with definite limits. Even in space, the system militia seems to have more jurisdiction for most things like customs. The UPF is primilary for interplanetary peace-keeping and Sathar prevention while militias handle the inspections like a Coast Guard role. Really, only Morgaine's World and some of the stations are heavily under UPF jurisdiction. But all of this is just off the top of my head - not thought through - would be an interesting excersize to model the line between UPF and planetary governments. Given the tolerance of Dramune's Outer Reach, it seems the "central authority" is very weak and limited while planetary authority is primary. @JCab747 I like you're thinking there - its a good rationalization for something that seems so counter-intuitive. |
January 21, 2017 - 12:11pm | I just think that certain tech has implications: Inertia screens: reconfigured they are used in place of air bag crash systems in vehicals or as G force reduction systems at duty stations on military star ships with high ADF. To me this is just logical. Enter KHs with the ill described it defined stasis screen. What does it do? I could phase a ship slightly out of phase with time and space simulating stasis (although probably not true stasis) which is why it works as a defense. Only logical that it might have other applications. Sort of like radar and the radar range IE microwave ovens. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 21, 2017 - 12:13pm | I think I had read that David "Zeb" Cook likened the UPF to the United States, but its description (pre-Zeb's) doesn't fit that idea. Perhaps it starts more like a League of Nations/NATO organization with the old European Common Market thrown in and then, like any bureaucracy, starts growing in power to become a European Union-like government by 111 FY. Joe Cabadas |
January 21, 2017 - 12:19pm | There are some ideas under the Project: Knight Hawks 2.0 such as this discussion: http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/4882 I think there are more concerning hull size, internal volume/cargo carrying capacity in that project but there were other discussion threads elsewhere on this site that may be helpful. Joe Cabadas |
January 21, 2017 - 12:22pm | I just think that certain tech has implications: Inertia screens: reconfigured they are used in place of air bag crash systems in vehicals or as G force reduction systems at duty stations on military star ships with high ADF
That's a good point. Especially for crewmembers to withstand the high G forces of some of the ship manuevers. The basic ground vehicles should also be revised to include emergency inertial fields to reduce injuries. I'm thinking of the ones listed in the Alpha Dawn rules as stripped down models available on outpost worlds with few vehicle regulations, but a world like Prenglar probably has a whole host of mandated safety equipment that would drive the price way up. Might be a good idea for an article. Joe Cabadas |
January 21, 2017 - 12:44pm | Actually Cook only produced Alien Worlds which was targeted at an older market HS/ college. Aw was an generic sandbox setting. The project was taken from him and reworked as Star Frontiers with a canned setting targeted at 10-13 yr olds. When that happened he had nothing more to do with SF . There are plain statements in AD (Basic book?) Saying UPF is not a gov. These would be by the 4-5 game designers that each took a section of the AD rules and banged them out fast with a deadline looming. They each wrote their section and put the book together in short order hence some of the inate wonkiness. Cook had little to nothing to do with the setting. I tried to get him to write a short encounter for the magazine when he gave me the interview but he demurred. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 21, 2017 - 1:00pm | Thanks for the clarification. Speaking of wonkiness in the original AD rules, see the one below. Under "Melee: Knockouts" on page 25: "As in ranged combat, any roll to hit of 01-02 knocks a character unconscious." (My emphasis added.) The ranged combat rules of course only offer "Automatic Hits: ...The second type of automatic hit happens when a player rolls 01 through 05..." And there is nothing about knocking a character unconscious. I have your story "Condition Critical" from Frontier Explorer Issue 12, which I like, but do you think the game designers were thinking of having a way to knock out an opponent in ranged combat with the 01-02 roll and took it out or forgot to add it into the finished product? Joe Cabadas |
January 21, 2017 - 2:47pm | I think that there are repeated options for knocking characters unconscious and a plethora of subdual weapons, that we all ingore, are because they were mindful of the youthfulness of the target audience. Differences in knocking unconscious within the rules could simply be a symptom of the method of how it was brought to print. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
