jedion357 May 19, 2016 - 12:12pm | So Canon time lines that exclude Zebs are all the buzz right now but there are a few nuggets in the Zebs time line that I like and I think might be worth saving. The question is what parts of the Zebs time line would you save and use in a Canon No Zebs time line anyway? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
jedion357 May 19, 2016 - 12:26pm | For me: 1. Medical Services Organization, MSO. Don't need the blue the quarantine planet crap but I like the idea of the MSO. And if the interstellar Plague that was the catalyst for organizing the MSO only killed 10% Frontier wise that would still produce horrifying numbers of dead that would spark the colonies into action. 2. First & Second Common Musters: story of adirmal Morgain is a good one. By extension that would mean saving Hatzk Naar. I think the First Common Muster serves an important role in that it gets the various colonies thinking in terms of military defense BEFORE the sathar show up. On top of that Hatzk Naar has featured nicely in the Love & Atomic Rockets shirt stories that went into the magazine. 3. Mechanon elements in Zebs time line: Mechanon Revolt, Mechanon Migration, etc. All good plot hook fodder. 4. Tetrarch Pyramids: who doesn't like exploring ancient ruins. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
ChrisDonovan May 19, 2016 - 2:40pm | Are the Musters a Zeb creation? |
Bio-Social May 19, 2016 - 4:14pm | I thought the Musters were mentioned in Knight Hawks, but I could be wrong. |
jedion357 May 19, 2016 - 5:10pm | Maybe they are I haven't gotten to the history stuff in KHs I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
Bio-Social May 19, 2016 - 5:41pm | Tetrarch ruins of some kind were mentioned (I think), ARES. I think it was a Zeb Cook article. |
Bio-Social May 19, 2016 - 5:44pm | IIRC, Zeb's Guide does three things with chronology : 1 compiles earlier references 2 adds something like a century of events 3 works in the Rim But I have read that there are a number of apparent retcons, and probable errors as well. |
jedion357 May 19, 2016 - 6:03pm |
Tetrarch ruins of some kind were mentioned (I think), ARES. I think it was a Zeb Cook article. That's right, the only Star Frontiers material Cook really wrote after TSR gave the rules to others to rewrite. Eastman was using Zebs Guide to take SF in a Gsma World direction to suit his own vision. In fact the Osakar were a plant mutant PC from his personal home game. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
JCab747 May 20, 2016 - 6:23am |
Tetrarch ruins of some kind were mentioned (I think), ARES. I think it was a Zeb Cook article. That's right, the only Star Frontiers material Cook really wrote after TSR gave the rules to others to rewrite. Eastman was using Zebs Guide to take SF in a Gsma World direction to suit his own vision. In fact the Osakar were a plant mutant PC from his personal home game. Let Gamma World be Gamma World and let SF be SF! Mind you, you can borrow stuff from GW... there's also the Alternity game that offers a few other things that could be made Star Frontiers-esque... not that I ever owned a copy of Alternity. Joe Cabadas |
jedion357 May 20, 2016 - 6:55am | There was an article in SFman converting Alternity races to SF, however I never got them, most felt like they belonged in a low tech setting. I borrow from everywhere, just going through the D&D 4.0 monster Manuel and looking at all the full color pretty pictures I noted many creatures that looked like they could have come from a sathar home ecosystem or out of a sathar bio-tech lab. As to changing a system. Eastman didn't just change the fast play system of SF but attempted to change the genre, add to that the rush to print nature of Zebs and it was just a quagmire. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
JCab747 May 20, 2016 - 5:07pm | I borrow from everywhere, just going through the D&D 4.0 monster Manuel and looking at all the full color pretty pictures I noted many creatures that looked like they could have come from a sathar home ecosystem or out of a sathar bio-tech lab. As to changing a system. Eastman didn't just change the fast play system of SF but attempted to change the genre, add to that the rush to print nature of Zebs and it was just a quagmire. I understand. When I first saw the Alternity races in SFman I scratched my head. I printed them up but didn't really see how I could use them -- I had never even used the Rim races. But for my own campaign ideas, I wanted to figure out what to do about the Core Four home worlds. So I searched this website for information and came across the Alternity topic under Projects. It's (the project's information is) a bit underdeveloped but it prompted me to dig further. Then I found the Alternity fan site: http://www.alternityrpg.net/ Under the StarDrive section it gives the Alternity sci fi history. It seems like Earth and some of those races are more advanced than SF. I figured I could adapt the early Alternitive history to fit the Star Frontiers universe... with modifications. The Terrans had several big galactic wars. So if the Frontiers is wa-a-a-ay far off, it could easily get cut off from Mother Earth and her rebellious children. Oh, and I agree with your assessment about Zebs in general. So-so artwork at times. Concepts that aren't thought through very well, such as the Mentalist profession. Going from having hypno training centers to learning new skills off of micro cassette tapes... OK, the alternative back in the 1980s were those big, huge floppy drives, but micro cassette tapes? It's a leap backward from a hypno training center. Joe Cabadas |
rattraveller May 20, 2016 - 5:15pm | Personally I prefer the original timeline without any zebs. The Sathar are still out there and waiting to get you. I do see the value of some of the zebs material but how much you take is strickly a matter of choice. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
JCab747 May 20, 2016 - 6:45pm | Personally I prefer the original timeline without any zebs. The Sathar are still out there and waiting to get you. I do see the value of some of the zebs material but how much you take is strickly a matter of choice. I wouldn't argue (much) against you. Zebs does provide a bit of (very flawed) structure and an idea of the Frontier's past and future events... Joe Cabadas |
Tchklinxa May 20, 2016 - 8:04pm | Zebs has some okay stuff and then other times it is just so off from the rest of SF history, I am trying to use it, but then I am also doing the crazy Sci-fi TSR timeline from hell for my setting. It is interesting I just started adding what I could find out about the Alternity Timeline events (never played Alternity and have none of it's stuff) to my crazy timeline and oddly it is working, not to off from GW or SE, not too bad. It seems some ideas over in R&D didn't change much. Since I choose an event that occurred in SE's timeline and SF's time line to figure out how removed the Frontier is from "Earth" time almost everything is ancient history, with lots of war, dark ages and destruction of civilizations... and those pesky humans are responsible for a lot of destruction and wars it seems. A bunch of D&D critters are Sci-fi inspired creatures so they totally could work as Sathar bioforms or native alien fauna. Anytime you read "magically created by a mad wizard" or similar line that is really saying bioengineer or genetically modified organism by a scientist. But I do want the D&D import to feel SF, that's why I am working on a re-imagining of the Raith (I suspect it is the same creature as the Scorpionfolk in D&D) so they are not so much fantasy creature like. In the case of GW critters many can be explained in SF terms easy enough but a few are darn hard. I personally think if SF had continued at some point TSR or WoTC would have done terrible things to it... all I have to do is look at GW & D&D and groan over some of the things they did to those two games and then imagine the same idiots fooling around with SF. I suspect at this point MA1 & GW grew out of the SE/D&D games in which aliens went adventuring in the proto-test generic fantasy world that would become 2 different world settings in D&D, the aliens got killed, or never escaped the D&D setting. In fact in poking around in SE there are devices that literally nullify high tech and can plunge a planet into the sort of world you get in D&D, in addition some D&D setting worlds clearly are the dying world: A once advanced culture now on it's last legs, reduced to waring city states of primitives as it's planet was turned into a waste-land. So the "fantasy" setting is sometimes relative or a matter of perspective... if you are a primitive and find a tube that shoots fireballs well that's a wand and magic, but if you are Captain Rogers of the Space Fleet and you have a tube that shoots fireballs more than likely it's a grenade launcher or blaster or something like that. Just some thoughts from my research into my favorite games. "Never fire a laser at a mirror." |
Shadow Shack May 20, 2016 - 8:39pm | A world without Zeb's would be a world that still has Star Frontiers being published. |
Tchklinxa May 20, 2016 - 10:27pm | Maybe, I do remember looking at Zebs in utter frustration when I got it back in the day, but I thought Buck Rogers had something to do with the demise as well. Now I can look at Zebs a bit different, but the no follow through with the other guides is what really killed it I think. The reason I did not invest in Buck Rogers btw was because TSR killed SF and I had no faith in their ability to support Sci-Fi games at that point, only D&D. I think I ended up picking up my first GURPS book because of TSRs marketing decisions now that I think about it. Basically TSR chased me off as a customer for any game except D&D for a very long time. "Never fire a laser at a mirror." |
Shadow Shack May 20, 2016 - 11:48pm | If I remember the history correctly --- Whore-aine Williams unleashed Zeb's sans play testing knowing it would be an utter faiure in order to better promote TSR's newly acquired (by her) Buck Rogers property as their premiere sci-fi game. That being the case, without Zeb's SF would still be around. Well, perhaps without Zeb's and the manatee SF would still be around. But you get my drift... ;) |
jedion357 May 21, 2016 - 4:10am | Lorraine Wiiliam as CEO of TSR negotiated with the holder of the Buck Dodgers IP (her family) for TSR to produce BR as TSRs science fiction offering to the RPG market. The deal was shady because the terms meant that the IP holder got paid for every BR product printed not sold but printed and boy did they print a lot of BR shit! At any rate the order came to discontinue SF and yet we still got Zebswhich was a rush job. I'm suddenly struck by the inexplicable descion of Eastman to take Star Frontiers in a 90 degree turn toward Gama World with Zebs. Could it be that Eastman was trying to save Star Frontiers with this move? Boy I'd like to ask him that. Zebs may actually represent an attempt to rescue a popular game in a hostile environment done sneakily hoping no one really noticed but it was just not to be. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
JCab747 May 22, 2016 - 12:02pm | Maybe, I do remember looking at Zebs in utter frustration when I got it back in the day, but I thought Buck Rogers had something to do with the demise as well. Now I can look at Zebs a bit different, but the no follow through with the other guides is what really killed it I think. The reason I did not invest in Buck Rogers btw was because TSR killed SF and I had no faith in their ability to support Sci-Fi games at that point, only D&D. I think I ended up picking up my first GURPS book because of TSRs marketing decisions now that I think about it. Basically TSR chased me off as a customer for any game except D&D for a very long time. Yes, I think I migrated to Traveller, Twilight 2000, Traveller 2300 AD and the assortment of FASA products like Star Trek RPG and especiallly Battle Tech... but I always had a fondness for Star Frontiers. Joe Cabadas |
Shadow Shack May 22, 2016 - 5:18pm | RPGaming was waning for me in that time frame anyways, by 1990 I was completely out of it. I had a brief resurgences near the end of the 90's but by 2002 I was once again out, with the only gaming being the occasional session with my wife and the few online play-by-post games I've participated in. We did manage a brief one day four person table top D&D game with her brother and his wife a couple years ago, but beyond the internet I have not played Star Frontiers for at least 15 years. Getting into much more expensive hobbies like firearms and motorcycles probably has a lot to do with that. ;) |
JCab747 May 22, 2016 - 8:52pm | Getting into much more expensive hobbies like firearms and motorcycles probably has a lot to do with that. ;) Well, this is an inexpensive hobby, reminiscing about a discontinued RPG ... and coming up with alternative ideas for it. Joe Cabadas |
KRingway May 24, 2016 - 5:13am | Well, I may have said it before, but back in the day - and in our most recent SF play sessions - we never really had any problems with Zeb's. When I first got it sometime in the late-ish '80s we transferred combat and all the skills stuff over to the Zeb's system and never had any problems with it. Various other things, such as equipment, and especially computer stuff and the different CAS added some interesting colour to our games. When I ran a homebrew adventure recently that went very well, we combined elements of AD with Zeb's and on the whole it worked okay, once we figured out some of the number crunching. I also thought that the new races and the timeline were interesting, although in the case of the latter it didn't really have much of a role to play in our games. I liked the idea of the Tetrarch and included an artifact from that period in one homebrew adventure. I understand that quite a few people hate Zeb's but my approach with it - and any other RPG source material - is that you can pick and chose what you find useful and ignore what you don't. We just found Zeb's a useful addition and had fun with it. |
Bluddworth May 24, 2016 - 4:34am | LIke a few here have already wrote, I was happy with Alpha, but Zeb's system if I recall was integrated well by our group. I wasn't thinking about the internal politics of gaming companies back then, my group played many, many RPGs in the 80's and for us SF had run its course. We moved on to Twilight 2000, Swordbearer, James Bond, etc. Come 1990, it all came to an end. Friends finished college and moved off. One other and I went into military, and moved off. Plus, single player RPGs on the PC and consoles were beginning to become much higher quality. |
Tchklinxa May 24, 2016 - 4:48am | Well I was fiddling with Converting things to Zebs system. I have some notes... It would be interesting to create resources for both systems, I don't know if I have a practical program though for laying out things like Referee Screens. I include Zeb stuff in my setting but I also get why others do not... thus the no Zebs Timeline project, besides we need those sort of references for folks so they can choose and build a setting as they please. "Never fire a laser at a mirror." |
ChrisDonovan May 24, 2016 - 6:55am | Being one of the ones who kicked off the current mini-binge of "non Zeb", it's not that I don't want to use some of the Zeb, it's that (as I have painfully come to understand after trying to reconcile them) Zeb's timeline is all-but incompatable with AD/KH. Eastland made some fundamental changes to the timeline that replace implicit assumptions about how things happen relative to one another. (Either that or he didn't do his reaserch, I don't know which.) The note in the WOWL brief about the 400-year rule of the Valentine family alone throws Zeb's timeline off considerably. As it stands, if you take both as gospel Clarion was settled and under stable rule by humans long before they even entered the Frontier. |
JCab747 May 24, 2016 - 7:49am | From what I understand, the Zebs game mechanics are supposed to be based on TSR's Marvel super hero game -- and I got that idea from reading the Star Frontiersman and Frontier Explorer magazines -- with the idea that the better you roll, the better your chance of success... But it just never appealed to me that way. And, Zebs left a lot of loose ends, such as promising additional robot rules that never came, provided weapons such as grasshoper mines that were never fully explained and an interesting but not very well thought out Mentalist profession. I like how the non-Zebs timeline is going. I think it puts the events of the modules in better place. You could then try to salvage some of the Zebs events too... One thing to consider is instead of a single timeline that trys to explain every little nugget of information, especially for early Frontier history, is to do a separate timeline for each of the Four Core races. You keep a main timeline of major Frontier events, but let's say you wanted to incorporate the fan-based Yazarian Exodus material. If it is in a separate Yaz-based section, you could get a better idea of the flow of events. For example, how does Yazarian society develop? When and how do they get star travel and learn to use the Void, when did they discover that a brown dwarf was going to devastate their system, did they have a single royal family (as is postulated under the Very Yazarian Civil War project) that got "lost" during the evacuation, etc. Much of that can be mined from various fan articles on the Yazarians, items on this website and a bit of fresh thinking. And, yes, referees are still free to create their own timelines. Tch has been working on an interesting one in her Weird Science Project. Shadow Shack has one that has a good alternative history for the modern Frontier (and puts many of the module events in a similar order to the non-Zebs timelline). Not that I want to detract from what everyone has been doing with the non-Zebs timeline, but I had started my own timeline under the Alternity Frontiers Project here: http://starfrontiers.us/node/9159. If anyone has any feedback on that, I would welcome it. The Alternity "facts" that I am using come from fan-sites of that game including the StarDrive wiki. I think one problem with it is the huge human population explosion in such a short period of time, so I may alter some of the dates I have. My Alternity-based timeline starts with a Human-centric path to 1 FY, and ditches the idea of placing the Volturnus modules before the start of the First Sathar War. I had planned to put those modules around the 40s FY, but I think I will try to incorporate the non-Zebs timeline for "modern" events. I have planned to do a Yazarian, Vrusk and Dralasite timeline too... keeping major events in mind so they don't conflict with the main one. Joe Cabadas |
ChrisDonovan May 24, 2016 - 8:09am | One thing that non-Zeb does bring to the table that helps the overall situation is that 400-year reign of the Valentine family. It makes the Frontier considerably older than it is in Zeb, giving populations more time to grow. |
JCab747 May 24, 2016 - 8:52am | One thing that non-Zeb does bring to the table that helps the overall situation is that 400-year reign of the Valentine family. It makes the Frontier considerably older than it is in Zeb, giving populations more time to grow. Yes! Joe Cabadas |
ChrisDonovan May 24, 2016 - 9:17am | There's a downside to that though, as I just discovered by running right into a huge brick wall. Zeb seems to anchor quite nicely by pegging the Dramune Run module in the same year as it is in AD (61 PF). Using the fixed date as a referent, I was able to backdate a good chunk of the pre-UPF timeline, but I've run smack into the Volturnus issue again. It's going to be a pain straightening this mess out. |
JCab747 May 24, 2016 - 10:22am | Zeb seems to anchor quite nicely by pegging the Dramune Run module in the same year as it is in AD (61 PF). Using the fixed date as a referent, I was able to backdate a good chunk of the pre-UPF timeline, but I've run smack into the Volturnus issue again. It's going to be a pain straightening this mess out. I think the big thing is just reworking a few elements of the Zebs timeline by incorporating the "actual dates" given in the modules.... Warriors of the White Light mentions the Humans came into the Frontier from the direction of Theseus, so Minotaur had to be settled first... The Dark Side of the Moon mentions that Kraatar was settled 220 years before the module starts, so that's a lot earlier than Zebs' take. But a lot of the Zebs events -- the musters, etc. can be used but with alternative dates or the same date... Other Zeb elements should be junked such as the Blue Plague causign 4-5 star systems being placed under quarantine. Maybe there are quarantined systems but not because of some disease that a cure was found for and they all weren't declared off-limited at the same time. Just a thought. Joe Cabadas |