 March 1, 2015 - 6:24am | Apart from the Assault Scout, are there any other examples of HS3 ships? Also, would it possible for an HS 3 ship to carry a shuttle externally? I ask as I am currently mulling over ideas for an adventure. My RPG group is planning on playing Star Frontiers for the first time since the late 1980s, and I was wondering whether some sort of HS 3 ship design might be out there. At some point they may be able to use such a ship, being a small group, and possibly by using a slightly militarised civilian example. |
 March 7, 2015 - 8:42pm | Totally was NOT looking for SF drives but stumbled across this very neat concept: No I don't think it's "appicable" to SF but then again it could be :) Just interesting. Randy |
March 7, 2015 - 8:52pm | Chemical engines produce thrust, not power for the ship. This is why I was talking about internal power sources for the ship (IE Para-batteries and solar panels.), unless they are another type of handwavium device the author never explained that powers the ship and propels it through space? Well "technically" a "chemical drive" could also tap the propellants for things like use in fuel cells and such. And a turbine in the exhaust can provide power to charge batteries or power the ship though you lose some efficiency in doing so but I get your point :)
Actually they don't leave radiation behind because the exhaust isn't radioactive much at all. (To short a dwell time in the reactor for hydrogen to become radioactive) The "toxic" problem is the reactor itself which is highly radioactive but that's a matter of shielding if the outside environment even sees it.
True but as noted it's my personal preference to not do so since the rules aren't really that combursome in the first place. Just misleading and badly worded. (Then again, I found I actualy liked the "Other Suns" starship building once it was automated and simplified a bit. No more every number to four decimial places for instance :) )
All true pretty much except I'll point out that "technically" Traveller came up with the Ancients to explain why there were other humanoid races in the universe rather than depend on parellel evolution and specifically to expain the large number of asteriod belts in the univers which was a result of the random system building metric :) Randy |
March 8, 2015 - 2:32am | Totally was NOT looking for SF drives but stumbled across this very neat concept: No I don't think it's "appicable" to SF but then again it could be :) Just interesting. Randy I'd say it's applicable in spirit. You could see it as hit locations for components. Something similar happens in the Twilight:2000 RPG, where vehicles have hit locations and then one can figure out component damage from whatever location is hit. That system is a bit unwieldy until you get used to it, but a simpler system could be done for ships. |
March 8, 2015 - 2:43am | To my mind, and when considering the various replies in the discussion, I'd still stick to my stance that the game pretty much stops once one actually needs to travel from planet to planet. This has always struck me as slightly odd, seeing as it's a sci-fi game. As a SF referee for many years, I always felt that the players were hobbled slightly by space. I also wondered why the system tried to be a bit realistic but then had something called 'The Void', which seemed to be 100% not realistic. Actually, I still wonder about that bit!  Okay, the space combat stuff is all well and good (pretty much) and can feel a bit Star Wars-like in it's own way (which is okay too). But going into and coming out of the Void has always seemed to me to be a bit of a kludge and perhaps too restrictive. As for the more space opera elements of RPGs such as Traveller, I think SF has those too but the whole backstory in SF is perhaps more crunchy. I still think it might be possible to come up with some sort of Void drive engine system that doesn't stray too far from the KH ship building rules set. Whether anyone needs that apart from me is a moot point  But if anyone's interested I could rustle something up at some point. |
March 8, 2015 - 8:03am | Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure KH outlines how much fuel is used during combat. Am I right or has been explained elsewhere? |
 March 8, 2015 - 8:16am | It does it's on page 36 and 37 of the PDF when it describes what it cost of fuel units for chemical rockets. I think the same applies to Ion engines as well? |
March 8, 2015 - 8:43am | Aha - yes, that's true. But as it also points out that a ship can carry huge amounts of fuel for ion drives, how much it consumes when using ADR (i.e. combat) becomes pretty meaningless. I think the general gist is that is that the fuel can be carried in large amounts and is cheap and so perhaps isn't worth bean-counting about... |
March 8, 2015 - 8:51am | Still after a long day of fighting the Sathar and other enemies of the UPF, it would be nice to say: "Time to top off the tanks before we head home." "Got a bottle of Vrusk brandy in my quarters Captain?" A large dull thud is heard. "Idiot!" The captian snapped. "I meant the fuel tanks!" The first mate is lying on the floor and a nice large spanner wrench is next to him.... |
 March 8, 2015 - 2:42pm | "Space sleds" are a common device in the science-fiction novels that Star Frontiers gets most of its spaceship inspiration from. They have enough fuel to maneuver between spaceships, which isn't much, not the enormous amount needed to achieve orbit. You can't land on planets with them. If you really want them to, go right ahead, I'm not your pop, but the authors definitely meant ship-to-ship transport, not ship-to-surface. |
March 8, 2015 - 4:14pm | I think I may have figured out a new system for ship drives. I'm thinking along the lines that it's the next step onwards from the chemical/ion/atomic generation, brought about by improved technology, better software, and a better understanding of the Void. Plutonium and uranium prices across the frontier will probably fall through the floor but, hey - that's progress! Once I've nailed things down a bit more I'll start up a project, if anyone's interested. I need to see what needs to be bolted on from the KH rules. |
March 8, 2015 - 4:46pm | As a SF referee for many years, I always felt that the players were hobbled slightly by space. I also wondered why the system tried to be a bit realistic but then had something called 'The Void', which seemed to be 100% not realistic. Actually, I still wonder about that bit! Stargate is about the only SF I know of where "space travel" isn't really something the characters worry about and though its a good enough "adventure" you might as well be traveling around Earth for the most part. As for the Void itself, the "method" suggested in the SF rules really IS non-sensical. We've pushed particales in accellerators FAR higher than 0.01% the-speed-of-light so suggesting it was a "natural" phenomonon was more than a bit lazy on the designers part. However, in context its obviously a variation on sub-space as travel for physical matter in it is faster than sub-space radio. I've always treated it as a "by-product" of the same. You don't need a seperate FTL drive you just need to hit a certain speed and in essence turn on a sub-space radio, (and feed it into a modified "freeze" field generator) and you pop into the Void. But that's another thread :) Okay, the space combat stuff is all well and good (pretty much) and can feel a bit Star Wars-like in it's own way (which is okay too). But going into and coming out of the Void has always seemed to me to be a bit of a kludge and perhaps too restrictive. Because of the speed factor? As for the more space opera elements of RPGs such as Traveller, I think SF has those too but the whole backstory in SF is perhaps more crunchy.
I still think it might be possible to come up with some sort of Void drive engine system that doesn't stray too far from the KH ship building rules set. Whether anyone needs that apart from me is a moot point But if anyone's interested I could rustle something up at some point.Personally I'd like to see what you came up with no matter what  Randy |
March 8, 2015 - 5:10pm | While going over the Universe SFRPG rules (http://universerpg.sourceforge.net/) I re-found their energy managment rules which could possibly port over to SF. While their scale is about double KH (20,000km map hex) and time about 1.5 times (15 minute turn) KH their stated rate of Accelleration is pretty hefty all by itself. A movement of 1 equates to 2.5g accelleration while a move 2 equals 5g. Each ship has a listed amount of "energy blocks" or units that it can carry and a coresponding (site says that's spelled right but I don't buy it :) ) "burn rate" of energy that it uses per turn if manuever plus it expends energy units to do things like fire weapons or use shields. Energy is sourced from "radioactives" stored on-board and in attached energy pods with each ship carrying a certain amount internally. (And yes their "exposition" on what/how/and-why this all works is even LESS than KH :) ) It should be possible to come up with a HS based "burn-rate" per ADF (throw in MR for free?) and for weapons and shield use along with an "basic" internal carry capacity for each hull size. Full cost for Atomic motors and half for Ion as they are more efficent but less powerful? Figure your ADF to the jump point and if no combat all of it is applied to "preping" the jump drive? Want to jump faster? crank up the ADF energy (accelleration) to reach the needed energy state faster? (I don't even bother with "smoking the jump" or risk jumping unless the ship has had to manuever {combat} prior to jump and never used the "10-hours-per-light-year" rule figuring they HAVE computers if not at least pocket calculators so its not THAT time consuming) Most merchant types ships will keep to around 1ADF(g) for economic reasons while military and "others" would tend to get to the jump state faster and hang the cost. Thoughts? Randy |
March 9, 2015 - 5:05am | Personally I'd like to see what you came up with no matter what Well, at the moment I'm on my third rewrite  Things started off simple, then got a little too complex, so now are being simplified and (hopefully) improved.
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 March 9, 2015 - 6:52am | When you've got it ready, post it in the Knight Hawks 2.0 project. That would be the natural place for it. I'm looking forward to seeing it as well. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
March 9, 2015 - 7:36am | Will do. At the moment it's 2000 words but will end up being more! |
 March 9, 2015 - 11:51am | If you really want them to, go right ahead, I'm not your pop, but the authors definitely meant ship-to-ship transport, not ship-to-surface.
Already been settled. While the rules don't specifically state they can't, when you crunch the numbers laid out by said rules they fall a little short. |
March 9, 2015 - 3:54pm | When you've got it ready, post it in the Knight Hawks 2.0 project. That would be the natural place for it. I'm looking forward to seeing it as well.
I wanted to point out that I followed the link you posted for that project and the systems keeps asking me to sign in and then refusing to let me in with "password incorrect" though I can get there just fine if I go the long way around... Randy |
March 9, 2015 - 4:01pm | Totally was NOT looking for SF drives but stumbled across this very neat concept: No I don't think it's "appicable" to SF but then again it could be :) Just interesting. I'd say it's applicable in spirit. You could see it as hit locations for components. Something similar happens in the Twilight:2000 RPG, where vehicles have hit locations and then one can figure out component damage from whatever location is hit. That system is a bit unwieldy until you get used to it, but a simpler system could be done for ships. Again another subject that should probably be taken to the KH project threads, but, what systems and how would you suggest they be treated? Randy |
 March 9, 2015 - 11:07pm | If this was Stars Without Numbers, the post's title would be "Patrol Boat/Free Merchant ships", and with how the rules handle spaceship construction, there would be less ambiguity with how to design one. Here is what a Star Frontier assault scout looks like:
The two points of free mass gives some breathing room for additional fittings, including more cargo space (up to 60 tonnes, total). A boarding tube is good for militia ships that routinely inspect cargo, or extended stores for ships that go on long trips. If you want to add anything more powerful — like better drives, electronic systems, etc. — you would have to pull one of the weapons, or swap them with weaker ones (Sandthrowers anyone?), to free-up power. I wish there was a simple way to convert all this to the Star Frontiers rules. |
 March 10, 2015 - 4:36am | Totally was NOT looking for SF drives but stumbled across this very neat concept: No I don't think it's "appicable" to SF but then again it could be :) Just interesting. I'd say it's applicable in spirit. You could see it as hit locations for components. Something similar happens in the Twilight:2000 RPG, where vehicles have hit locations and then one can figure out component damage from whatever location is hit. That system is a bit unwieldy until you get used to it, but a simpler system could be done for ships. Again another subject that should probably be taken to the KH project threads, but, what systems and how would you suggest they be treated? Randy I like it and i think its totally applicable as a house rule. For one thing the magic speed limit number of 1% C for void jump bothers me in that a lot of things are rellative. The Sun is in movement orbiting within the galaxay and the galaxy is in movement and while a ship leaving Earth would approach 1% C this is rellative in that its movement in relation to the rest of the universe is not 1%C. Thus I'm a proponent of that hand waving staple of sci fi: the hyper drive, the warp drive, or dare I say "void engine"? I think that this should be separate from the method of propulsion whether chemical, ion, or some form of atomic rocket. In addition if its not logical for the propulsion method to generate power for the ship then the ship needs a reactor: fission for Star Frontiers and maybe fussion for something like Star Trek or similar. Solar panels are for sissy little system ships and prone to being shot off, who wants those? They could power a ship or sky lab like station but not one that would have lots of fun capabilities like weapons. My house rule is that fission reactors are commonly used for power and I simply use the stats on the atomic drive and state that its an internal ship fitting and has extra shielding and it provides not thrust at all simply provides power. A system ship exploring the outer reaches of a system will never generate enough power from solar panels and will need a continual source of power and a small reactor is an obvious answer to that. The Casual Relationship Diagram would also work for a lot of things on ship like weapons, Power feeds are down the lasers wont fire, "I'll run a jump cable but be careful you dont overload the guns or they'll blow." We are talking about a ship with hit locations and tracking damage to systems though- more record keeping but I think perhaps fun for the players in that they have meaningful choices to make in space and during combat. Combat would need to be limited to only a few ships. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 10, 2015 - 7:48pm | I like it and i think its totally applicable as a house rule. For one thing the magic speed limit number of 1% C for void jump bothers me in that a lot of things are rellative. The Sun is in movement orbiting within the galaxay and the galaxy is in movement and while a ship leaving Earth would approach 1% C this is rellative in that its movement in relation to the rest of the universe is not 1%C. As I understand it a ship travelling at 1%C has a significant "energy state" in its frame of reference as to the Universe at large. (NOT mind you that I think the developers had a clue about the actual physics :) ) You'd have a bit "less" than 1%C if you're going "away" from the direction of solar motion and vice-versa of course... Thus I'm a proponent of that hand waving staple of sci fi: the hyper drive, the warp drive, or dare I say "void engine"? I think that this should be separate from the method of propulsion whether chemical, ion, or some form of atomic rocket. "Sub-sub-Space" in this context I think, but as far as I understood the consensus I don't think anyone really "buys" the idea that going 1%C in any direction in space is going to "magically" translate you into the Void and we pretty much all assume some type of "system" for doing so instead. My take is that it doesn't require a "seperate" drive though, just some extra mechanics on-board. (My case a sub-space radio and "freeze" field system so the ship translates into the "void" {sub-sub-space} for FTL) Mostly because I wanted something "different" than needing two seperate drive systems like in Traveller, etc. In addition if its not logical for the propulsion method to generate power for the ship then the ship needs a reactor: fission for Star Frontiers and maybe fussion for something like Star Trek or similar. Solar panels are for sissy little system ships and prone to being shot off, who wants those? They could power a ship or sky lab like station but not one that would have lots of fun capabilities like weapons. Well you can have both a reactor AND an engine in the same system depending on the system, (NERVA and an duel use fusion reactor/thruster) or totally seperate systems if you have, say, a reactor that just provides plasma and electricity to the actual engines themselves. (Solar panels? NOT in any SF universe "I" know of! They use maco fission reactors for toasters and not that wimpy/greeny stuff! :) ) My house rule is that fission reactors are commonly used for power and I simply use the stats on the atomic drive and state that its an internal ship fitting and has extra shielding and it provides not thrust at all simply provides power. A system ship exploring the outer reaches of a system will never generate enough power from solar panels and will need a continual source of power and a small reactor is an obvious answer to that. Note that I am a diehard NERVA fanatic and argue such on forums like nasaspaceflight.com so I'd say your preaching to the choir :) I "assume" fission as a primary power source for most uses including shipboard where special systems provide plasma for the drive systems both Ion and "atomic". The Casual Relationship Diagram would also work for a lot of things on ship like weapons, Power feeds are down the lasers wont fire, "I'll run a jump cable but be careful you dont overload the guns or they'll blow." So the "end" bubble would read "Laser Generator"? Along the line would be "power feed," "targeting system," and what else? (I'm pretty sure we should move this btw :) ) We are talking about a ship with hit locations and tracking damage to systems though- more record keeping but I think perhaps fun for the players in that they have meaningful choices to make in space and during combat. Combat would need to be limited to only a few ships.
Depends actually. The advanced game (KH) has the systems damage table which would probably make a good starting point for the matrix. (My prefered game Full Thrust has "threshold" checks where each system is checked for damage/destruction when you mark off the last box in a row of "hull" (hit points) boxes) I'd see the causality system being "optional" and used mostly for role playing rather than fleet combat :) Randy |
March 11, 2015 - 3:19pm | So maybe the rules need rewriting? Revising. Everything dealing with science or a projection of the future needs revising every ten years. The book "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" has been revised every 10 years since first published to reflect the latest discoveries in neuro science and better teaching techniques discovered by the author during the intervening decade. Jules Verne's book "Paris in 1986" while an interesting read for his prediction of fax machines is badly out of date and inaccurate. I'd say write an article with the latest scientific thinking on star ship drives and submit it to the fan zine. Present it as an option for dropping the old drive and substituting the new ones. We can probably keep the chem drive but they might need a revision. and there should be 2 more: a military prefered drive and a more economical commercial prefered drive. This project might be a good place to hash this out: http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/4880 Ya, links work for me again :) Reply and such there. Randy |
March 14, 2015 - 3:19am | RanulfC said: "Sub-sub-Space" in this context I think, but as far as I understood the consensus I don't think anyone really "buys" the idea that going 1%C in any direction in space is going to "magically" translate you into the Void and we pretty much all assume some type of "system" for doing so instead. My take is that it doesn't require a "seperate" drive though, just some extra mechanics on-board. (My case a sub-space radio and "freeze" field system so the ship translates into the "void" {sub-sub-space} for FTL) Mostly because I wanted something "different" than needing two seperate drive systems like in Traveller, etc. The main gist of what I've designed is that the new drive is the next generation of systems. This means that it could potentially replace all other drives except chemical (which in itself may just stay as a cheap solution for certain needs). So, atomics and ions will become somewhat old hat Bear in mind that I'm revolving everything around the hand wavvy 'Void' and therefore not trying to be 100% realistic. This means that players can choose to adopt the new drive if it suits the flavour of their Star Frontiers games. At the same time, the drive is not without it's own foibles and needs, which players will have to take into account. It's also not super-duper not does it do everything in such a way that it seems too capable. It's just a better way of getting around space Unfortunately I now have to put things on hold for a while due to work committments. What I have is about 2300 words at the moment and is incomplete with some areas needing clarification, so I won't publish it here until I think it's good to go. |
April 9, 2015 - 12:51am | I've now finished writing up the rules for the Void drive and posted it in the Knight Hawks 2.0 project, along with uploading the document that describes everything. |
