Atomic Drives and the Environment

Abub's picture
Abub
October 24, 2014 - 11:32am
So... in my fledgling SF game I have their Assualt Scout, the UPFS Dart, equiped temporarily with two chem drives bolted to each atomic drive (above and below).  I am reducing the MR and ADF by one from this mod.

Currently I'm making the assertion that it is a common add-on for an AS, and that the drives on them are often produced with couplings for these attachements.

The reason for this madness... is I didn't want to handwave the environmental impact of landing on a populated planet with atomic engines.

SOOOO... my post here is to see if any of you have any ideas on how an atomic engine would be able to be made environmentally safe in the SF level of tech.

In my first mission the planet had two fighters that they used in thier own atmosphere but only landed them on the opposite side of the planet from where the only town population center is and in a desert at that.  Most of the planet is undeveloped.

Do you think tech exists that could clean up amient radiation on planet?  Do you think there is a mechaniasm that can explain how to get thrust from an atomic engine without splewing radiation out the back?  Do you think tech exists to directly convert the energy release in the atomic reaction into electricity or some SEU equivelant to perhaps power turbine fans that could be build into or on the sides of a fighter's stern for use on planet.  Jet turbines would not be sufficant to reach escape veloicity in general on a planet with 1g I'm thinking, but they would enable safe opperation of the fighter near populations.  How bad would it be to fire the atomic engine at the ceiling altitude that the turbines can reach... like would the radiation still posion the environment if let out high up.  I'm not sure that in the atmosphere shields up from space radiation... does the magnetic field of the planet push up or does it only exist outside the atmoshpere.


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Comments:

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 24, 2014 - 12:24pm
I'm in the camp that the atomic drive thrust is not radioactive. I simply have civilized areas forbidding the maitnenance on said drives in their atmospheres since the drives are external it goes without saying any work is done externally.

BTW according to canon any craft with chem thrusters has an ADF of 1 (no MR penalties). Fuel is the limitation as to how much acceleration you can perfrom at that rate, and sadly that isn't spelled out. But if you're equipping a ship with the thrusters for atmospheric use while incorporating any additional jump capable drives, it really is a moot point as once the ship is out of atmosphere it will resort to said jump capable drive system.
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TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
October 24, 2014 - 12:33pm
I've never held that the atomic engines spew radioactive material out the back end.  I've always treated them as using the atomic power to drive a field that greatly enhances the thrust generated by normal fuel.  So much so that the cost of the "regular" fuel is just absorbed into the cost of the atomic fuel pellet.  If you've ever read my book Discovery, you've seen the full description of the general idea on how the engines work.  So in my game, it isn't an issue and atomic drive ships can land on planets all they want.

In a rewrite of the ship rules, I'd put in a cost for that extra fuel (I've actually been thinking about this a bit before you even posted) and probably at the same cost as a fuel load for a chemical engine.  The difference being that a chemical engine will give you a total of 8 ADF on a fuel load but an atomic engine, with the same fuel load plus atomic fuel pellet, will give you 1000 ADF (enough for an intersetllar jump).
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Abub's picture
Abub
October 24, 2014 - 12:37pm
Oh I'm sorry... I meant in Space, using the atomic engines as per normal, it is just the added mass of the engines that hampers the ADF and MR by one.  At first I was going to not do the penality but after reading something about adding extra weapon systems causing that penality I did it.

I know I read somewhere about fighter pilots needing extra shielding against the atomic engines... so I'm disinclined to just handwave away the thrust.  It sure would make some things easier admittedly.
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Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 24, 2014 - 1:53pm
Got ya, the penalty is for the extra system. 

Abub wrote:
I know I read somewhere about fighter pilots needing extra shielding against the atomic engines... so I'm disinclined to just handwave away the thrust.  It sure would make some things easier admittedly.

The fighter pilot is not being exposed to the thrust, he's being exposed to the atomic drive mounted in the hull behind him.

Assault Scouts have those drives mounted outboard on their wings, and the crew needs to vacc-suit it to access them. Frigates (and larger) have them on struts that are hollowed out for airlocks & decontamination stations in order to service them (and you would still need to vacc-suit or workpod to access the bits beyond the strut housing). The simple fact is if you need all that protection while working on the drive, it goes without saying you shouldn't be cracking those panels open in an atmosphere.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

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Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
October 24, 2014 - 4:28pm
The KH book also says MR can only be 1 point higher than ADF.

Abub's picture
Abub
October 25, 2014 - 12:52pm
TO - I'm a slow reader, but I'm downloading your PDF now.
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TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
October 25, 2014 - 1:16pm
Well, the description I was referring to is in the first little bit of the book so you'll get to it quick enough.
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Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 25, 2014 - 1:51pm
Jaxon wrote:
The KH book also says MR can only be 1 point higher than ADF.

I know I saw this somewhere, but honestly don't recall where. Like the ruling about "system ships up to HS:5 can land in atmospheres" versus "Scouts are the only starships that can land" rule, it's no doubt one I easily house ruled around.

Granted, under KH Vector rules it makes sense but under the canon table top gaming rules I didn't see a need for it. The fact that "powerful ion drives" and "(insert any less than splendid adjective) chemical drives" perform at the same paltry rate, I didn't see the need to further hamper those systems. More so when the rules also state you can make your full compliment of MR facing changes while stationary...acceleration rates obviously have no impact on maneuvering in this game.

Just my personal rambling on the matter...
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

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Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
October 25, 2014 - 4:29pm
Yes, Shack, I use:

Chemical: 1 ADF
Ion: 1 ADF (low speed but, long endurance)
Improved Ion: 1/2 listed ADF (faster)
Atomic: mormal

AZ_GAMER's picture
AZ_GAMER
October 25, 2014 - 4:52pm

I remember reading a real-life scientific article about electric rocket propulsion - an early version of ion drive that scientists are working with today that uses ion propulsion that released very clean thrust.

I agree with Terl's concept that most likely the nuclear portion of the atomic engine is not like a nuclear bomb blowing out the exhaust pipe and more like the power plant used to create the reaction with a more natural ingredient like Hydrogen or Liquid Oxygen to create the combusted thrust.

I think if the authors were thinking that atomic drives as emiting radioactive thrust both fighters and Assault Scouts could never land at a space station or carrier for re-arm either. I think its safe to assume the ships that go planet side have built low environment impact engineering included without the need for additional chemical rockets for inter-atmospheric flight

 


Abub's picture
Abub
October 25, 2014 - 8:10pm
We've been using Ion engines for decades.  Voyager 1 and 2 both use Ionic propulation.
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Ascent's picture
Ascent
October 26, 2014 - 7:43am
I think he is referring to the new generation "true ion" engines that they retrofitted the shuttles with back in the late 90's. I'm not sure what the difference is. I haven't done any research on them.
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AZ_GAMER's picture
AZ_GAMER
October 26, 2014 - 9:33am

This isnt the article I read but it looks like the same information. The article I read had to do with a plasma gas (which maybe included here as well but i only skimmed this one briefly). I am very aware of the fact that we have been using Ion technology in unmanned spacecraft for sometime... the article i saw was in regards to manned space flight and the benefits of electric propulsion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrically_powered_spacecraft_propulsion


Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
October 26, 2014 - 9:40am
True AZ. I prefer to keep the rule but, expand it to HS 5, atomic ships too. So a frigate can, IF NECCESSARY, can land on a planet but, larger ships would recieve too much stress. 

So PCs can take their HS 4 or 5 freighter planet-side but, they don't thumb their noses at the militia because that frigate can land right next to them with a 40 man crew! Plus it keeps the need for assault transports to need shuttles, etc.

I still use no Ion ships land on planet rule...don't like it but...maybe something will change.

Abub's picture
Abub
October 26, 2014 - 8:35pm
Now admittedly, in everybody's games each GM runs it how they want to... i'm just going to the KH source here.  It sounds to me exactly like it is splewing the radioactive fission reaction out the back as thrust.

TO -- I still am going to download your story pdf... had a minor issue last time and gave up to easily.

The Following is a C/P from the page 37 of the revised pdfs

Atomic Drives
The most powerful type of engine that can be
installed on a spaceship is an atomic fission engine.
Atomic engines propel the ship by splitting atoms
and using the tremendous amount of energy
released as thrust. Atomic drives use either uranium
or plutonium as fuel. An engine will burn a 10 cm
diameter chunk of fuel in the course of an
interstellar jump.
Atomic engines are mounted on struts that keep
them away from the ship's hull. This is because
these drives are a source of dangerous radioactivity,
and must be isolated from the crew and living
quarters of a ship. A fighter is the only ship that has
an atomic drive mounted in the spaceship's tail.
Fighter pilots must wear special suits that resist
radioactivity.
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Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 26, 2014 - 10:29pm
Abub wrote:
Atomic engines propel the ship by splitting atoms
and using the tremendous amount of energy
released as thrust.

It's the released energy from the reaction that is harnessed as thrust...not neccesarily the radioactive material itself. Electricity from a nuclear power plant goes to your home as a result of the same type of reaction.

The rest of that simply supports why you shouldn't be performing maintenance on them in an atmosphere.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Ascent's picture
Ascent
October 26, 2014 - 11:14pm
The real concern with an atomic drive is if it should crash on the planet. The radioactive crash site would be contaiminated for many decades to come, and the larger the ship, the greater the effected area, which itself is affected by the speed and direction of winds. If a ship should crash near a populated region of the planet, the entire region could be devestated or at the very least quarantined and affect many lives.
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Tchklinxa's picture
Tchklinxa
October 27, 2014 - 4:51am
I don't know I sort have to agree Abub as the shielding tech seems poor at least for fighter pilots... and putting the engines on struts to protect crew from radiation on bigger ships does equal radiation leakage concerns. 

I feel that most races don't want to risk the leakage on planet or into crew quarters, so struts in construction to make them safer just in case & no landing Atomic ships planet side except fighters on Military bases. Now some races might not care or individual crews. As a rule the environment is not a concern of SF civilizations... on the other hand there is pretty big hints in the books that robots that blow up are radioactive too... so maybe the Frontier folks take bigger risks as a rule with their power tech.
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Abub's picture
Abub
October 27, 2014 - 7:41am
Just an FYI about modern atomic power.  It is basically a big powerful STEAM engine.

We have no tech to directly convert the energy released in the fission reaction into electiricty.  It we did those power plants would produce probably a hundred fold more eletricity.  Modern nuclear power plants heat water with the fission raction which turns to steam that physically turns turbines.  That is why the water becomes contaminated... the nuclear waste isn't actual spent plutonium... it is radioactive water.

So... I'm still thinking for an atomic drive to land on a planet they need some kind of hybrid engine such as chemical... or... the tech in SF has to be advanced enought to directly convert the fission energy into SEU power.  I say SEU instead of electricty cause we don't know exactly what is in an SEU... just that it is alot of energy.


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Abub's picture
Abub
October 27, 2014 - 7:46am
To recharge clips and other SEU things... and parabatteries...

Don't they basically charge them from "energy" from a ship engine or something?  What powers a parabattery?  In Star Trek the whole thing with them using "Plasma" and not electiricy is a Sci-Fi way to assert it is way more powerful than electricty.  I'm guessing SEU's are something like that... like super electricity.
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Ascent's picture
Ascent
October 27, 2014 - 10:05am
Abub wrote:
Just an FYI about modern atomic power.  It is basically a big powerful STEAM engine.

We have no tech to directly convert the energy released in the fission reaction into electiricty.  It we did those power plants would produce probably a hundred fold more eletricity.  Modern nuclear power plants heat water with the fission raction which turns to steam that physically turns turbines.  That is why the water becomes contaminated... the nuclear waste isn't actual spent plutonium... it is radioactive water.
On the contrary. There are several physical radioactive byproducts produced by the escaping isotopes. The water, as long as it is purified, is of little concern.
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jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 27, 2014 - 1:02pm
At the time that game was penned there had been a dubious flirtation with atomic powered aircraft by both US and Russia, with Russia actually having deployed an operational aircraft that was both dangerous to its crew and spued radiation into the environment. This may have been on the minds of the game designers in the early 80s and influenced some of the statements in the rules.
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Abub's picture
Abub
October 27, 2014 - 1:45pm
nice Jedi


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jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 27, 2014 - 5:44pm
Reference this article for aircraft propulsion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_gamma_emission#Potential_applications

Perhaps the fuel pellet is a nuclear isomer that can flouresce gamma rays that react with fuel for propulsion?
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Mother's picture
Mother
October 27, 2014 - 7:31pm
In a nuclear powerplant the water that is used to produce steam to turn the turbines is not radioactive.  The radioactive substances are contained in the reactor vessel itself and the primary loop which runs through the reactor.  A heat exchanger transfers the heat from the radioactive loop to the non-radioactive loop (water) which then turns into steam.  The reactor and primary loop are a contained system. Pressurized water can be used for the primary loop or liquid metal.  No radioactivity should be released unless there is a leak. There is no difference between a nuclear powerplant and a fossil fueled one other than the reactor and primary loop. i.e. the source of the heat for steam.  The radioactive waste is primarily the spent fuel rods which need to be replaced routinely, as well as objects that become radioactive as a result of working around the reactor.

I agree with AB (?) [the little green moster guy] (sorry I can't see your username), the canon material sounds like they are using a controlled fission reaction to expel radioactive particles out the back of the atomic engines. Like a jet engine only using radioactive particles as a substitute for superheated air. That's not too different than the nuclear powered bomber proposal from the 50s.  In space it wouldn't be a hazard and explains why atomic engined ships are not permitted to land on habitable planets. 



bossmoss's picture
bossmoss
October 27, 2014 - 9:24pm
I always assumed it was like modern nuclear-powered aircraft carriers & submarines in real life.

Abub's picture
Abub
October 27, 2014 - 9:38pm
They both just turn a turbine which powers the fan blades to push the ship in the water.  You totally could make a future tech jet turbine that is powered by a nuclear engine... but i don't think it could reach escape velocity.
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bossmoss's picture
bossmoss
October 27, 2014 - 9:53pm
Hmmm...  OK.

Tchklinxa's picture
Tchklinxa
October 27, 2014 - 10:01pm
It does sound a bit like an engine I read about from the 50's too... I am blanking on the name of it but it was a real nasty weapon, designed to spew radiation to poison the countryside.  I can see how our modern navy tech would make one to think differently though...
 "Never fire a laser at a mirror."

Tollon's picture
Tollon
October 28, 2014 - 7:45am

Just for the sake of this discussion here is a drawing to help people visualize what an atomic engine looks like.

Heater Exchanger: This allows reactor coolant to be cooled and keeps the reactor from over heating.
Directional Thusters:  Allows the ship to make slight changes in directions.
Reactor:  The atomic reactor.
Turbine:  Super heated coolant creates steam which is then forced through a turbine to create electricity.
Electronics:  This is the equipment that monitors the reactor, it's output and turbines.
Thruster:  Whether it be a particle thrower or an electro-static drive this provides the ship with propulson.

The biggest fear of this type of drive system is damage to the reactor vessel (the vessel containing the reactor core).  As already stated, if the core is exposed to the atmosphere, melts down or breeched by weapons fire, large areas of the planet surface could be containinated for a long time.  If the reactor is destroyed on reentry you could have a globe event causing even a larger swath of the planet being containated.

In the case of the thruster being a particle thrower (ie Ion drive) depending on the type of particle being thrown and the intensity of the stream you could technically create a weapon by pointing the engine at something.  This type of weapon is known as a Particle Accelerator Weapon.  It has been used in several sci-fi stories.  Larry Niven used it in Man-Knintzi war (Total misspeling here) just to name one.  So governments might not like the idea of having an Ion engine near a major city due to fears that it might be used as a weapon.

Using a real world example, there have been major concerns over use of atomic batteries in space exploration.  The fear here is, if the rocket carrying the probe malfuctions in the atmosphere the battery could cause radiactive fallout.

So yes, I see why planets would limit the use of atomic engines...