 October 9, 2014 - 6:03am | I start these threads to elicit ideas, content, submissions and feedback in part of the magazines but also in part because the collaborative process makes stuff better. I'd like to explore the 2nd Common Muster which is in essence SW1. Fiction, adventures, plot hooks, campaign overview, KH encounters, technical articles (how to handle sathar hypnotism, prospective equipment list for the era, etc) I think it could turn into a themed issue for the magazines but of course it will need content and feed back. What would you like to see in terms of a 2nd Common Muster theme in the fan zines? Fiction wise I think a short story exploring the sathar hypnotism from the perspective of a victim with a surprise/ twist ending would be cool. Adventure wise: I'd be interested in a small ship brought into the muster (not an assault scout) and experiencing some pieces of the war we have not seen possibly action on Laco or Pale or New Pale. mix of KHs and AD action for this designed as episodic encounters like WoWL module. Benefit is that the crew ie the PCs are not from a military organization and thus they dont have to act like it but they also get some straight forward action encoutners. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 October 9, 2014 - 10:45am | It's safe to say the assault scout was a UPF answer to the first worm war. Which isn't to say there weren't other size:3 scout designs out there, just none that were warships. My PF:100 adventure in the Historical Adventures project is ripe with HS:2-3 craft in the way of system ships, there is no reason (other than the decks-parallel to main axis that is) some of those designs couldn't have eventually bled into star ship format as Truane's Star grew. |
October 9, 2014 - 11:24am | I'm thinking that it might have a technology incorporated into its hull that is kind of being left behind in the Frontier, an electromagnetic solar sail. I think crafting a situation so that calls for a ship that can slip past energy sensors might be the ticket here. a sneak and peak during time of war. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 October 9, 2014 - 1:40pm | The only problem with solar sails is that they have to be huge. And they tend to be silvery as you the most momentum per unit area if they reflect the light hitting them. So while they won't show up on energy sensors, you'll probably be able to see them with a telescope or if you're relatively close, your eyes. You could make them black so that they absorb the radiation but then they're only half as effective and you have to make them twice as big. Just something to think about. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
October 9, 2014 - 2:05pm | Electromagnetic solar sails? I thought the principle upon which they worked was vastly different from the one you are thinking of.
EDIT: that would be the electric solar sail or the magnetic solar sail not the photon sail. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 9, 2014 - 3:18pm | Yeah I'm thinking of photon solar sails. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 October 9, 2014 - 4:24pm | I hope it would show a list of Federation and Sathar ships and maybe a chronological date list. |
October 9, 2014 - 4:50pm | I hope it would show a list of Federation and Sathar ships and maybe a chronological date list. actually the UPF is organized a few years after the 2nd common muster- its an outgrowth of that effort. but I'm sure an article on the star ship tech of the 1st and 2nd common muster period would be interesting. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 October 10, 2014 - 6:05am | Ships of this era could go with two major themes. First ships that are more race specific or planetary specific since the only truly Frontier wide group at the time was PGC. Which would be the second group. PGC would have many cargo and people transporting ships which would be nonrace specific and some warships to protect their cargo ships from pirates. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
October 10, 2014 - 6:05am | Ships of this era could go with two major themes. First ships that are more race specific or planetary specific since the only truly Frontier wide group at the time was PGC. Which would be the second group. PGC would have many cargo and people transporting ships which would be nonrace specific and some warships to protect their cargo ships from pirates. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
October 10, 2014 - 2:40pm | I would think that pre-Sathar War "warships" would be limited, and by limited I mean small scale craft such as fighters and gunned scout ships. Capital ships would be rare, by the outbreak of the war most capital ships would be converted freighters/liners etc that were militarized and upgunned out of necessity. Therefore a pre-war "frigate" or "destroyer" would more likely to be a corporate vessel suited for protection of assets rather than offensive maneuvers. Such vessels would be armed with Laser Cannons and Batteries, but no torpedoes. They might also have a limited hold (1 or 2 units worth) or limited passenger capacity (5-10 passengers per hull size versus the standard 25 per HS for liners). Torpedo systems would be added after the initial invasions of the worms, sacrificing that cargo/passenger capacity in favor of more offense. Cruisers would be even more limited, again in the vein of frigates and destroyers...cannons and batteries but again limited cargo and/or passenger accomodations albeit to greter scales than the smaller not-captial ships. Also remember that the largest cruiser(s) would be eventually dubbed as "battleship(s)" after they get upgunned for the invasions. |
October 10, 2014 - 3:51pm | torpedoes would not be deployed to any great extent as the peaceful coexistence of the core four would contra indicate nuclear tipped torpedoes. The warlike yazirians might be the source of a high percentage of warships in the muster I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 October 10, 2014 - 6:17pm | But do the yazirians have a pre-exodus history of space ship warfare? Likely they just had a large number of ship, some big one among them, that they quickly converted for war. -iggy |
October 10, 2014 - 7:29pm | But do the yazirians have a pre-exodus history of space ship warfare? Likely they just had a large number of ship, some big one among them, that they quickly converted for war.
I would agree with that but I also think that the natural impulse of a war like race like the yazirians after encountering the rest of the core four would be to prep for war even though they were peacefully coexisting. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 October 10, 2014 - 7:59pm | The assault scout could easily have been inspired by a civilian vessel pressed into service during the first Sathar War. Perhaps there was a speedy civilian vessel that was able to be loaded with armaments that worked surprisingly well, impressing them. With a few tweaks and military armor added, the assault scout was born. The civilian design could have been very similar, though with some noticible differences. I believe that occurred with some real life naval ships. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
October 10, 2014 - 9:14pm | The assault scout is definitely a post SW1 vessel. In Warriors of White Light it is spelled out as a vessel that the Sathar have no known equal and is the reason behind the final pair of encounters in that module (re: when Tabbe turns it over to the worms). Had it been a pre-SW1 or even a SW1 vessel, there wouldn't have been such a gap in time for a Sathar attempt at sabotage. Even if you go by the warped Zeb's time line and match it to pre-Zeb timelines (re: the printed modules), that's twenty years before the second war and 60 after the first. The AS helped put the balance of power back onthe UPF side, and the worms launched the second war before the UPF could get any more legs up on them. |
October 10, 2014 - 10:30pm | Point taken. Though there is still room for a precursor. The AS wasn't developed in a vacuum. (So-to-speak.) View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
October 11, 2014 - 12:51am | Most definitely. My pf100 game is filled with pre-cursors, mostly system ships but there are a few interstellar gunned scouts in that setting. It's safe to say by the first war there was some form of HS:3 craft with ADF/MR:4/4 that had basic weaponry to serve as a rapid escort/gunship. |
October 11, 2014 - 3:54am | I would take some of the classic weaponry and dial back its stats. for example instead of a RB having 360 degree firing it could be fixed to the hull and be a "FF" weapon or on a slow ship it might be a Rear Firing weapon. rail guns are actually a good weapon system in space- when fired in an atmosphere there is a measurable degrading of the rails- kind of a nature of the beast sort of thing but this difficulty doesn not exist when fired in a vacuum. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 11, 2014 - 5:07am | I would take some of the classic weaponry and dial back its stats. for example instead of a RB having 360 degree firing it could be fixed to the hull and be a "FF" weapon
I did just that in the pf100 game...the launcher array from the RB became a FFR (forward firing rockets) system, same range and damage as the RB but as a MPO/FF weapon. Obviously the Pod laser is a post SW1 system, but I got around that by having three classes of laser cannons, each one with a longer range/higher damage/greater MHS as you progress. I also have laser turrets, shorter ranged versions of the battery. Two of those on a HS:3 scout class ship is the Assault Scout predecessor in that game, with a variant boasting a single turret and FFR system. {EDITED FOR TYPOS} |
October 11, 2014 - 5:01am | @ shadowshack ok perhaps we should raid you project for a Star Ships of the 2nd Common Muster article or talk you into writing it. Pair that with an adventure set during the muster and find a bit of fiction for that period and we'd have enough for the beginnings of a magazine theme. Inevitably a fourth article would turn up. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 11, 2014 - 5:14am | Here's what I have posted --- I have more in hand written form that have yet to be published in the project. |
October 11, 2014 - 5:12am | What sort of things could the governments of the Frontier done to "up gun" their ships on short notice? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 11, 2014 - 5:46am | In the case of Truane's Star --- they have an established SCC (granted it's a class 3 center). Appropriating staff and supplies for a war effort takes but the stroke of a pen (or stylus, or key stroke, or touch screen, etc). Ditto for any other orbital stations, all of those stations (combined with surface efforts) can quickly become factories or suppliers to factories. TS would have no problem converting a slew of civilian ships into para-military craft. Up and coming Streel (who is already an established mega corp by the outbreak of SW1) has no qualms lending a hand to defend their homeworld/headquarters by lending near-unlimited funds and resources. Actual production of bona fide warships is another can of worms, the system itself simply lacks the capacity...but any star ship on hand can be converted for outer-system activity (Common Muster) as well as any system ship for self defense. And believe me, Streel has plenty of star ships on hand and even more guns to outfit them with. You couldn't ask for a stronger ally to kick start the war efforts, coupled with Truane's Star having planets rich in all three trades (Agriculture, Industry, and Resource Mining). Simply put, with the exception of lacking the class 1 SCC in Gran Quivera, Truane's Star was better poised than Prenglar before SW1 broke out. However, the benevolent authors of Zeb's Guide seem to think that this level of power and self-reliance isn't enough to prevent the system from being the first to fall.  (before I found this site I thought Zeb's Guide sucked. The more I participate here, the more I realize how I was being extremely polite with that initial thought.) |
October 11, 2014 - 8:21am | Ok, if the Four Core were peaceful, and they had to have had ships to dispatch the "Pirate King" in the 1st muster - would a frigate or destroyer be the biggest ship they have? I mean, if most ships were system ships or small starships (HS 2-5); what would be the point of making a heavy cruiser (HS: 18)? Was there a limit to the size of the ships they could build back then? ex: 2.P.F. max size - HS 6, 80 F.Y. max size - HS 20. |
October 11, 2014 - 2:39pm | I forget where it is (IIRC it may be in the opening pages of the Campaign Book that defines ship classes) but the heavy cruiser is listed as the original battleships from the first sathar war. Those ships no doubt began life operating as corporate vessels under PGC and Streel. As for what was around for the pirate muster, that too is what I have in my pf100 game...in that case there were numerous small scale system ships but much like the pirates of the modern Frontier, they don't lend themselves to larger craft. The equivilent of a frigate or destroyer would still be top gun...and as I alluded to a few posts up those craft would have began life as mildly upgunned corporate gunned/escort vessels entrusted with protecting cargo/passengers and/or other vessels. |
October 11, 2014 - 5:56pm | Hi thought I would drop a quick note to say forget about the whole upgrading the civilian ships and go with the some military ships each planet kept around because of the lack of trust/general paranioa about "aliens"/pirates. WHY? There simply would not be enough time to upgrade civilian ships. Took a look at the timeline and even though it says two years this war took much less time and involved three planetary invasions and two space battles. Here's a quick dated timeline.
3-2PF The First Sathar War is fought.
3PF 372th Day-The Sathar first appears. They attack the Truane's Star system.
3PF 386rd Day-Pale/Truane's Star and New Pale/Truane's Star fall. The Great Exodus to Laco/Dixon's Star System takes place.
2PF 24th Day-The four races muster a spaceship fleet. The Second Common Muster is called and put under the command of Admiral Morgaine, who immediately moves the fleet to the Cassidine system.
2PF 40th Day-The Battle of Triad/Cassidine. Morgaine's fleet performs a surprise attack on the invading Sathar fleet intent on ravaging Triad/Cassidine. The Sathar lose a third of their fleet.
2PF 64th Day-Laco/Dixon's Star system is attacked by Sathar fleet. Completely unprotected it is soon ravaged. Meanwhile Morgaine moves his fleet to the Prenglar system. 2PF 78th Day-The Sathar attack Gran Quivera/Prenglar. The Battle of the Two Fleets is fought. The Sathar fleet is routed and destroyed. Morgaine's fleet is seriously depleted and Morgaine dies in battle. With this mutual devastation the First Sathar War comes to an end. Roughly based on travel and communications time and estimates of military operations. Space battles probably took a day and land battles longer but since there is not much listed in the way of Frontier land forces till Landfleet they probably didn't take too long. Feel free to voice opinions. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
October 11, 2014 - 6:01pm | Yeah, it happened quick. I did a more detailed timeline that I posted around here somewhere but I don't remember where now. If you search for First Sathar War timeline you should be able to find it. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
October 11, 2014 - 6:57pm | Look how quickly the US got into the war effort in WW2 after suffering a humongous depletion of their naval representation. Ford, Chrysler, and GM all stopped producing cars and started manufacturing tanks and planes. Existing naval shipyards ramped up their staff with civilian contractors and belted out battleships. Textile factories bleted out bullets. The list goes on. Safe to say the pre-UPF Frontier is a little more efficient than 1941 technology permits. |
October 11, 2014 - 7:05pm | Ah yeah despite huge isolationist feeling at home, the US started expanding its military is 1937 and was activily involved in combat operations in 1940. Well these were the merchant marine attempting to run supplies to England in the North Atlantic and being attacked by the German Navy but you get the point. Wars seldom started when the history books say they did. Like this one. The Sathar didn't just show up in two fleets at two different systems and attack. They must have had some recon and probes. When did that occur? Did they capture some exploration ships like maybe the 37 that vanished long before the attacks started? With the hypnosis ability they could get alot of information. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
October 11, 2014 - 10:27pm | The point I'm making is that the warships on hand were built for a smaller scale war (pirates, who favor smaller vessels), and would be accompanied by a larger supply of civilian craft. The Sathar fleet is much more overwhelming than a pirate threat. So there are several choices to address the new threat: 1> Deploy what warships are available for a David and Goliath approach, sans the Biblical assistance. 2> Retrofit the supply of civilians ships for immediate service thereby tipping the scale back to the Muster. 3> Begin building new warships that will take 150 days for the smallest capital ships' first launch. 4> All of the above. As you can see, step #2 is a very vital one, otherwise there is a huge gap between available warships. Take what existing supply you have, modify them quickly and get them out the door and into the action. Furthermore, during the course of retro-fitting, engineers will get some ideas for building a better warship --- "If I take this basic design back to the drawing board, beef up the super structure and add thicker hull plating, tweak the drives to compensate for the extra mass, fill all this wasted passenger & cargo space with fire control for extra weapon systems thereby doubling/tripling the payload...I could belt out a really decent warship." Or skip that step, wait 150+ days while going with existing designs versus new ideas, and hope nothing happens during that time. Here's a quick dated timeline. If you really want to go by Zeb's Guide. I find it laughable that a disorganized coalition can achieve victory in a two year surprise war when the organized effort that was already prepared takes ten years in the second war. Yet Truane's Star --- again one of the more organized systems when it comes to funding and resources --- quickly falls. Okay, yeah...it was a surprise attack by an overwhelming force that took a mere 14 days to wipe out two worlds. They didn't lose a third of their fleet until the next engagement in Cassidne. But that overwhelming ruthless force somehow left sufficient ships for a "grand exodus to Laco?" And furthermore mercifully skipped that undefended fugitive inhabited world in favor of pressing on to Cassidine (but came back to wipe it out afterwards, you know...as a morale booster having suffered a retreat). Excuse me while I get something out of my system...  If there were enough ships for an exodus, at the hands of the "merciful" Sathar who so swiftly annihilated that system, it sounds to me like a draw at best. I honestly have a tough time engaging in any SF discussion that doesn't uncover flaws in that extremely huge vat of diarrhetic dragon dung that is Zeb's Guide. Lorraine Williams at her finest. Ya know, she kind of resembles the huge vat and we all know what she was full of... |
