 September 21, 2014 - 12:52am | Below is all that I can find. Please post anymore that you know of. Prisons of the Frontier: Cassidine system, Canberra planet – The 3rd moon is a penal colony. Theseus system, Oedipus planet – This is a large, frozen world with a dense atmosphere of methane, ammonia and carbon dioxide. A monitoring station, Creon, is located on the northern hemisphere. A penal colony, Jocasta Base, is also nearby. Athor system, Yast planet – Solace is one of the more infamous supermax prisons of the UPF, it was made from hollowing out a gigantic mesa in the southern hemisphere of Athor (I) well away from anywhere. Tremedous defenses protect Solace from the outside and crack companies of Star Law Correction Officials man the stations inside. Also, it is not uncommon for Landfleet to have units passing through for desert training staying in and around Solace. If, somehow, a creature could make it through all of the security defenses in place, they would still have the desert to deal with once they got outside. Truly a forbidding place. |
 October 20, 2014 - 8:40pm | Do not forget that the UPF is not a government, but a coalition created and primarily funded by PanGalactic, not for governing states, but for protecting the Frontier and corporate interests and keeping the peace. They will certainly outsource to save money. If they taxed the Frontier enough to create a bloated beurocracy, then the inhabitants of the Frontier would no doubt experience unrest on a large scale. There would be no necessity for a beurocratic-controlled prison system. I thought that's what I just said. The UPF is not a government."The UPF is not an empire in any sense of the word. Matters of internal government are left to the member planets. The UPF does collect taxes for the maintenance of the Star Law Rangers and the Spacefleet, but the United Planets are concerned only with the defense of the Frontier." —Knight Hawks Campaign Book, Referee's Section, p. 48, second paragraph under The United Planetary Federation. What I said: Do not forget that the UPF is not a government, but a coalition created ... not for governing states, but for protecting the Frontier and corporate interests and keeping the peace. They will certainly outsource to save money. If they taxed the Frontier enough to create a bloated beurocracy, then the inhabitants of the Frontier would no doubt experience unrest on a large scale. There would be no necessity for a beurocratic-controlled prison system.
I don't recall that PGC created and funded the UPF. Where do I find this? I was mistaken. It was the four races who created the UPF. I think I confused the association based on the fact that Star Law, the UPF and Pan-Galactic Corporation are based on Gran Quivera.View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 October 21, 2014 - 3:40am | Karxan - That's interesting that you're a corrections officer. I gamed SF with another corrections officer a few years back. I would imagine you'd have some fascinating insights on how the system could be done in SF. I use the prison facility on Yast, but not the others. For the most part, hypno-tapes are used for "rehabilitation" and "retraining", and in extreme cases, criminals are subject to a "death of personality", where the mind is wiped like a blank slate, and a new personality is created (I got this from Babylon 5). Yes, there is also "frontier justice" for remote colonies. I had prisons be the norm in the early days of the Frontier, but they got shut down over the years as the use of hypno-tapes increased. |
 October 21, 2014 - 3:56am | RE: The UPF is not a government I would take issue with the statement that the UPF is not a government. If for no other reason that it has the name of a form of government in it very name: federation. It collects taxes, regulates (or attemps to regulate) interstellar corporations and thus interstellar commerce. It maintains the MSO, Star Law, Space Fleet, and Land Fleet all as cannon organs of government. It also negotiates treaties with other interstellar governments ie the Rim Coalition. It has a legislative body called the Council of Worlds and it also appoints governors to territories that it has control/interest in ie the Volturnus system. We've actually discussed the issue of what is the UPF government before and IIRC someone made a strong case for it being more of a confederation than a federation, which while a fine distinction was not enough for anyone to suggest changing the name from UPF to UPC, after all there are plenty of precidents for governments calling themselves whatever they like regardless of the actual form of government- communist nations using the word democracy in their name. This assertion simply makes no sense to me. If it is not a government then its close enough "for government work". This may be a case of if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then... I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 21, 2014 - 4:03am | Karxan - That's interesting that you're a corrections officer. I gamed SF with another corrections officer a few years back. I would imagine you'd have some fascinating insights on how the system could be done in SF. I use the prison facility on Yast, but not the others. For the most part, hypno-tapes are used for "rehabilitation" and "retraining", and in extreme cases, criminals are subject to a "death of personality", where the mind is wiped like a blank slate, and a new personality is created (I got this from Babylon 5). Yes, there is also "frontier justice" for remote colonies. I had prisons be the norm in the early days of the Frontier, but they got shut down over the years as the use of hypno-tapes increased. Enter "Demolition Man" This is a classic Sci fi theme from movies like Clockwork Orange and Demolition Man and a host of books that I cant think of right now though is smacks of Brave New World in some ways. It certainly is a sci fi theme that has been under explored or used in Star Frontiers, though perhaps Dark Side of the Moon qualifies with the mind control that was used on vrusk patsies. It might be something worth starting a thread on and brainstorming ideas. We could certainly use a submission of plot hooks and campaign ideas rooted in hypno retraining of criminals and so on. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 21, 2014 - 5:37am | Nowhere do the canon rules claim that the UPF regulates interstellar commerce or corporations. Around the paragraph I quoted above, it says: "Despite
the rough confederacy brought about by the First
Sathar War, there is much dissension and
disagreement among the members of the UPF
regarding galactic policy...Planetary governments and large corporations make
most of the day to day policy decisions on the
various planets of the Frontier. The organization of
several of these institutions is explained below, as
well as a brief description of the interaction between
the Four Races and the Sathar." In other words, they do not agree on the UPF's role in galactic policy because ultimately, as the previous paragraph I mentioned brought out, they do not affect policy, but only protect the Frontier. The Council of Worlds (a creation of Zeb's) is separate from UPF. So is the MSO. (Zeb's never associates the UPF with the MSO.) By the way, as so many here are so fond of pointing out, Zeb's is not canon because it betrays canon. I recommend reversing the roles ascribed to the UPF and the Council of Worlds as described in Zeb's, because Zeb's ascribes "protection and supervision" to the Council, when in fact that is the role of the UPF. The "bloated bureaucracy" claimed in Zeb's would thus belong to the Council, not the UPF. Besides, the UPF and the Council of Worlds cannot both be responsible for galactic policy. So clearly the UPF is the enforcer while the Council of Worlds is the policy-maker. UPF no doubt advises on policy in that circumstance, but does not dictate it. If you switch their roles, you will have an understanding of what should be. A council most certainly does affect policy and have a bureaucracy. A security force does not affect policy and has only enough bureaucracy to keep it running. Political affiliation is only one type of federation. "Federation" does not necessitate political unity, formulation of law or bureaucracy. Under synanyms of "federated" it gives "allied". [fed-uh-rey-shuh n] 1. the act of federating or uniting in a league. 2. the formation of a political unity, with a central government, by a number of separate states, each of which retains control of its own internal affairs. 3. a league or confederacy. 4. a federated body formed by a number of nations, states, societies, unions, etc., each retaining control of its own internal affairs. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
October 21, 2014 - 5:52am | 78FY Tough new guidelines for legal ownership of a system or planet are laid down by the UPF and the Council of Worlds. The guidelines are designed to halt mega corp expansion and to prevent occurances such as the Mechanon problem. clearly the UPF is regulating mega corp activity and has the power to do so and in fact: 50-60FY Laco's War. PGC and Streel wage first corporate War on Laco. The UPF eventually steps in and empowers an inter mega corp commission to resolve the differences. Other mega corps study Laco's War as a possible legal precedent for solving disputes. Thus the UPF regulates mega corps, has power to force some compliance, and by extension it also can regulate commerce. in fact it is probably interstellar commerce that the UPF taxes due to the general climate of each planet governs itself internally. this is also reflected in the mandate for Star Law to pursue interstellar criminals- that interstellar tax evasion is a crime and Star Law handles that. Agian I'm looking at something that quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck so.... EDIT: Planetary governments and large corporations make
most of the day to day policy decisions on the
various planets of the Frontier. Your own statement specifically says planets. I agree the UPF or any other confederacy would not be concerned very much with the internal policies of its member states (see definition #2 of the definition you provided), however a confederacy is a government and in this case is concerned with interstellar governance, namely collecting taxes, passing laws, regulating corporations and commerce, maintaining a military, and other public service institutions as well as appointing governors over territories and negotiating treaties with foreign powers. Again call me crazy but this one quacks like a government. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 21, 2014 - 10:53am | You're quoting Zeb's to me as 'proof'. Don't do that. It's like quoting the Qu'ran to a Bible thumper. There are nice little tidbits there, but it cannot be called canon. Your duck quacks out of Zeb's. My dog barks out of Alpha Dawn and Knight Hawks. I use Zeb's timeline only because no one has ever done a comprehensive timeline in a magazine for AD/KH with references. By the way, Zeb's is the same book that gave us the incredible "bap bins" named after the sound they make when George Jetson transfers in. Might as well call proton weapons "vwwssh squirters" and laser pistols "plick eyelets". (Lasers don't make noise, just the trigger.) Cars should be "vroom rollers". Out of Kim's own mouth he said he wanted to turn Star Frontiers into Gamma World. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 October 21, 2014 - 11:51am | I suppose that the UPF is like the UN/NATO but with the added respect and thus gained power from fighting two Sathar wars. The delegates can meet all they want and spout rules but have no jurisdiction or mandate that does not come from the planetary governments. Their military is coordinated, but the actual warriors are members of their respective planetary militaries.
The UPF has gained peace time duties and authority due to its war time success. The question is what duties and authority has it gained. -iggy |
October 21, 2014 - 12:29pm | @ Ascent: your own statement was that "no where in cannon does it say that the UPF regulates commerce" like it or not Zebs does qualify as cannon in that it is a rules suppliment that was produced by TSR. Whether you like it, whether it has problems or not, it is still cannon. Your further statement concerning planetary governments and corporations doing their own thing on planets does not invallidate the UPF as a government as that is exactly how a federation or a confederation operates. I know that Zebs is the bastard red headed stepchild of the Star Frontiers universe (no offense to bastards or step children) but by the same token I still see people willingly use it for new equipment items, planetary footnotes, mega corp background, cadres, the map, and any other thing they wish to cherry pick out of it. Despite its warts, of which I'm well aware, it still remains a good source of information about the Frontier that I consult about as much as AD and far more than KHs. You still haven't dealt with the meat of my arguement but rather ridiculed my quoting of Zebs guide which is a tactic I've observed in those you dont have a good answer and simply resort to ridicule and name calling. You've asserted that its not a government and I've pointed out that it meets the criteria of your own dictionary supplied deffinition for a federation which is a government and that it does all the things that a government does and yet your answer boils down to "No it aint". Yes each planet has its own government but these political polities have banded together to form a new political polity for the purpose of running a federation. The simple fact is that the word federation has a meaning that is what it is and that the UPF meets this definition and further can be characterized as performing the actions of a government. However, since we're dissing zebs I'll further quote "Anarchy to Empire" by Zeb Cook from Dragon #94 Political Federation Each member planet rules itself; however, all planets belong to one loose governmental body, and all must follow certain standards of conduct. The United States and the UPF are political federations. The simple fact that the UPF organizes, funds, and presumably has oversight of Star Law (note this is not a Zebs guide argument) underscores that fact that planetary governments and corporations are accountable to a higher political power. They cannot lightly defy Star Law marshals in the pursuit of their duty. If they do there will be political ramifications since each planetary government in the UPF will have willingly signed the treaty organizing this federation and thus empowering it as a political entity to exercise governmental power as a federation. Thus the UPF has authority over the member planets and the corporate entities as demonstrated by the authority of Star Law and as suggested by the passages quoted from Zebs guide. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 21, 2014 - 10:31pm | Namecalling? Still going on about that one political discussion (now almost a year back,) in which I proved, without counter argument from you, that I was doing no such thing? (I reserve namecalling only for people who stalk and harrass me.) You really shouldn't hold on to things for so long; (The Bible calls it keeping account of the injury,) it's bad for your health. You are taking my words personally. My ridicule is not against you, but Zeb's because of the author's clear disregard for the setting. That said, I will not respond to anything else in your post because I would prefer not to wreck this discussion with back-and-forth. Again, I'm okay with your interpretation so long as the Council is attributed with what Kim attributed to the UPF. Switch their roles in your mind and we're on the same page and Kim's universe will then line up with Star Frontiers...somewhat. That said, I disagree that the policy-making entity (I assert to be the Council,) requires a bloated bureacracy. The U.N. taxes its members and yet has relatively little bureaucracy because it relies upon the bureacracy of its members, thus its taxation is relatively minor. (It doesn't take much to maintain one building, a number of offices on various worlds and a small representative contengent without teeth.) View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
October 22, 2014 - 4:37am | And again, I'm not seeing an arguement that counter's mine. I'm not even following your logic in some places asw it appears you are standing on things said by Kim Eastland and in others lamblasting him for making SF more like gamma World? And as to name calling I believe that I said ridicule and name calling are the tactics of those who lack a good answer. I did not say you were name calling just associating it with ridicule as I've noticed one going hand in hand with the other and I'd prefer that we avoid ridicule and name calling. I think for the purposes of an intelligent discussion between adults on the merits of any item in the canned setting we should be able to discuss information form anything cannon. To be sure AD & KHs, Zebs, modules, Dragon and other assorted magazine articles, and finally the endless quest books will all hold different levels of authority. Ridicule for Zebs is appropriate in a thread discussing the merits of Zebs and its problems. But ridiculing my arguement because I quoted Zebs while not dealing with the essence of my arguement kind of comes off as "Why dont you just shut up". This thread started on prisons and rabbit trailed into whether or not a word means what is has always meant in the context of describing a type of goverment. As to holding onto something from the past I'm trying hard to remember what that previous discussion was about. Nothing in this thread is rooted in any prior arguement. Even Zeb Cook, one of the accredited authors of this game, characterized the UPF as equating to the US federal government and the member planets equating to the 50 states. Which is actually not all that suprising that the creators of game modelled it on things they were familiar with. Now is there a good reason I should disregard the common meaning of federation? Ignore Zeb Cook? Ignore all the details in the setting that support the idea that this is a government? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 22, 2014 - 10:32am | I'm sorry, but you are in the minority for love for Zeb's as well as in the minority for the opinion that it is canon. Just because people use stuff in it does not make it canon, neither does it being produced by the same company and being called an "official" Star Frontiers product make it canon. If the fandom rejects it, and it is not stated as canon by its creators, it is not canon. (See the dictionary definition of "canon" rather than your own opinion of what constitutes canon.) The creators are not even thanked in it. It itself calls it "a new frontier." Have we forgotten what era it was produced in? There was no discussion of its production with the original creative team. Kim brought it to Lorraine and she said do it, but that he would not get playtesters. Seeing as no discussion took place and it is rejected by the majority fandom, it cannot be canon. I like the races (as redesigned by the fans), I like some things in the timeline, I like the MSO, CFM's association with the Ifshnit and their role in helping the Frontier and several devices, as do many of those who reject Zeb's as canon, but liking parts of it does not make the whole acceptable as canon. It contradicts canon and the majority do not accept those contradictions. I am simply pointing out another contradiction. The simple cure to that contradiction is to switch the roles of the UPF and the Council as described in Zeb's. Life is about compromise. I'm sure many would be willing to compromise on this issue by accepting the Council of Worlds as long as they are the bloated, law-making bureaucracy, not the UPF. As a side, please stop the patronizing and the false accusations about name calling. I have shown nothing but respect for you all the way from your very first post on this site until this very moment. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
October 22, 2014 - 8:22pm | By the way, Dave Cook identified federations correctly, but note that he did not say that it was a law-making body. That is a role America takes on that is beyond the definition. The federation merely defines how the federation operates. It does not, by necessity, create laws of governance covering minor matters. It has that power only if the individual members as a group decide it does. The original (non-Zeb's) canon makes it clear that the UPF does not enact laws but enforces laws enacted by the individual states. America has a system in which the individual states are given voice as the House of Representatives. The Senate represents the federation of the United States. In original Star Frontiers canon, the House of Representatives (What Zeb's calls the Council of Worlds) is a separate entity from the UPF; even Zeb's makes this distinction clear. But Zeb's treats the UPF like the bloated bureaucratic U.S. Senate, while the original Star Frontiers canon treats the UPF as a military and policing entity controlled by the House of Representatives. (Zeb's: Council of Worlds) That would make the Council of Worlds the bloated bureaucratic mess, but the House of Representatives (not given name) depicted in the original canon suggests a United Nations entity rather than a bloated bueacratic controlling government. The original canon gives most of the power to the individual member planets to rule themselves rather than the interestellar agencies. Thus the most accurate comparision is NATO (UPF, especially given their creation in response to the Sathar) and the U.N. (Council of Worlds), both of which are federations. NATO is more clearly an alliance than the U.N., yet NATO does not decide any internal laws for any nation. Here is what is notably absent from both the original canon and Zeb's: An Executive branch (President) and a Judicial branch (Court system). Neither are represented in any Star Frontiers material, and the representatives of the worlds are treated as an entirely separate entity, thus not even a legislative branch is present in the UPF. Nowhere is a president even implied. Thus, a comparison to the U.S. is unwarranted. Without those, you cannot have law-making. In fact, judicial matters in UPF are handled under military tribunals, not by a judicial branch. The UPF is treated as a dog on a leash in the original canon. The stated goal of the UPF is to combat threats external and domestic. There is no other focus given to it in the original canon. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
October 23, 2014 - 7:58am | Sorry Ascent - if you tax, raise an army and set law WHICH UPF DOES FOR IT TO HAVE STAR LAW ENFORCE - it is a government. Now, the Council of Worlds my set the law but, Star Law enforces it and they are a part of the UPF just like Spacefleet. UPF sets treaties - like in Volturnus. So this is an organization that: 1) taxes 2) has a standing military 3) enforces laws <established by the Council of Worlds> 4) set treaties In modern times - we call those organizations - GOVERNMENTS!!!!!! It's just like the USA in the 1780's. It is only missing the one part of regulating trade! Just give it up and admit your wrong. Jeez is it that hard? |
October 23, 2014 - 9:36am | NATO is not a government and yet it qualifies for all 4 points you just made. So does the U.N. Also, enforcing law is not the same as setting law. Allow me to requote Knight Hawks: "The UPF does collect taxes for the maintenance of the Star Law Rangers and the Spacefleet, [NOTHING ELSE] but the United Planets are concerned only with the defense of the Frontier." That is waayyyy too narrow of a focus for a U.S.-style government. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
October 23, 2014 - 11:56am | NATO is not a government and yet it qualifies for all 4 points you just made. So does the U.N. Also, enforcing law is not the same as setting law. just curious as to where the UN military recruiting office is, I thought I knew where they get their troops but perhaps I dont.Allow me to requote Knight Hawks: "The UPF does collect taxes for the maintenance of the Star Law Rangers and the Spacefleet, [NOTHING ELSE] but the United Planets are concerned only with the defense of the Frontier." That is not an explicit statement ruling out the UPF being a government. It supports the traditional understanding of a federation but does not rule it out as a government. Taken alone you would be quite correct in making the judgement call you've made concerning the setting in the game you run. However, its not the only word on the subject. I'm not quite the fan of Zebs guide that you think I am. True, I've been a proponent of rehabing the Zebs material and did some significant work on rehabbing the timeline (more should be done on that). You say you accept and use parts of Zebs and yet I cannot use any of it to support my arguement? You are perfectly within your rights to make the judgement call on the setting that you have, however the rest of us can also make similar judgements. I can see that you are not going to be swayed and I likewise will stand pat on my position so perhaps we should get back to discussing prisons? I believe that the Dragon articles suggest that a special Branch of star law operates prisons within the frontier and we can probably also agree that the planetary governments also operate their own penal systems. Without a doubt there are some prisons and there is equally likely to be some planets with a big investment in hypno retraining- My vote would be that the vrusk go in for this heavily. Human worlds would have a mix of penal systems and philosophies about them. Yazirians might be a little harsh and some of their worlds might employ more capitol punishment as well as trial by combat but trial by combat is perhaps the way of the past and largely out of favor. Dralasites would be very much like humanity on this matter. Inner Reach hates piracy and likely has tough stance toward it while Teredrom dralasites are more liberal about penal systems and criminal rehab. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 October 23, 2014 - 3:24pm | Dralasites would be very much like humanity on this matter. Inner Reach hates piracy and likely has tough stance toward it while Teredrom dralasites are more liberal about penal systems and criminal rehab.
I believe a trial would be the ultimate format of Dralasite Debate. The other races might see pure guilt/innocence but a skillful Dralasite could debate its way out of being caught red handed. And doing it with a stand up comedy routine and two rubber chickens. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
October 23, 2014 - 4:56pm | Dralasites would be very much like humanity on this matter. Inner Reach hates piracy and likely has tough stance toward it while Teredrom dralasites are more liberal about penal systems and criminal rehab.
I believe a trial would be the ultimate format of Dralasite Debate. The other races might see pure guilt/innocence but a skillful Dralasite could debate its way out of being caught red handed. And doing it with a stand up comedy routine and two rubber chickens. I would agree with that but more so for Terledrom and less so for Inner Reach and far more harsher penalties for certain crimes on Inner Reach and Terledrom being more a liberal/criminal's paradise until one runs afoul of a vrusk mandate for hypno reprogramming. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 23, 2014 - 5:25pm | NATO is not a government and yet it qualifies for all 4 points you just made. So does the U.N. Also, enforcing law is not the same as setting law. just curious as to where the UN military recruiting office is, I thought I knew where they get their troops but perhaps I dont.Allow me to requote Knight Hawks: "The UPF does collect taxes for the maintenance of the Star Law Rangers and the Spacefleet, [NOTHING ELSE] but the United Planets are concerned only with the defense of the Frontier." That is not an explicit statement ruling out the UPF being a government. It supports the traditional understanding of a federation but does not rule it out as a government. Taken alone you would be quite correct in making the judgement call you've made concerning the setting in the game you run. However, its not the only word on the subject. I'm not quite the fan of Zebs guide that you think I am. True, I've been a proponent of rehabing the Zebs material and did some significant work on rehabbing the timeline (more should be done on that). You say you accept and use parts of Zebs and yet I cannot use any of it to support my arguement? You are perfectly within your rights to make the judgement call on the setting that you have, however the rest of us can also make similar judgements. I can see that you are not going to be swayed and I likewise will stand pat on my position so perhaps we should get back to discussing prisons? I believe that the Dragon articles suggest that a special Branch of star law operates prisons within the frontier and we can probably also agree that the planetary governments also operate their own penal systems. Without a doubt there are some prisons and there is equally likely to be some planets with a big investment in hypno retraining- My vote would be that the vrusk go in for this heavily. Human worlds would have a mix of penal systems and philosophies about them. Yazirians might be a little harsh and some of their worlds might employ more capitol punishment as well as trial by combat but trial by combat is perhaps the way of the past and largely out of favor. Dralasites would be very much like humanity on this matter. Inner Reach hates piracy and likely has tough stance toward it while Teredrom dralasites are more liberal about penal systems and criminal rehab. Agreed on all points except the first. The statement very clearly states that they are "ONLY concerned with the defense of the frontier." That is very clearly an explicit statement that there is no other purpose for the UPF. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
October 23, 2014 - 5:52pm | Its a federation instigated by the need for mutual defense, with an implication that the events of the 1st Common muster helped to illustrate the need for something more than a common muster. With the need for defense was a catalyst its not unusual that the mission of the UPF is the defense of the frontier. The MSO, Star Law, Space Fleet and Ground Fleet are all obvious expressions of that mandate to protect the Frontier. Setting aside the issue of whether we can or cant make other logical deductions concerning the Frontier and its government (something I think most people including the design team would endorse) The statement only says what the UPF is concern with not that it is not a government. Statements from Zeb Cook clearly indicate that he thought it was. so whats the problem? the statement in KHs does not contradict the normal meaning of federation, Cook clearly wrote that he thought it was a government, and statements from Zebs timeline which dont really cause a contradiction also support the view of it being a government so I'm at a loss as to why you are so dug in on this. Perhaps its time to agree to disagree? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 23, 2014 - 9:11pm | Assertions and forcefully declaring Zeb's to be canon is not a "logical deduction". Zeb's clearly does contradict in many places and this is just one of those places. The statement in KH was very explicit. "Government" is another broad term that you are giving a narrow focus to. Yes, they govern the space between worlds for the defense of the frontier, but they do not govern the worlds; and "govern" does not necessitate the formation of laws, but their application in administering to a territory. In this case, the territory is the space between worlds and the defense of those worlds from external threats. Throughout this discussion I have proven succinctly from quotes from Alpha Dawn and Knight Hawks that 1) The UPF is not a law-making body, 2) they are only concerned with the defense of the Frontier and 3) They do not govern the worlds. You have done nothing but hightlight where Zeb's contradicts these things and forcefully declare Zeb's viewpoint to be fact when the majority of fandom has rejected any claim to Zeb's being canon. I can't see why we can't just have a compromise and invert the relationship of the UPF and the Council of Worlds as stated in Zeb's. If you do that, there is no more discussion to be had. I'll agree that for being in the weaker position, you're quite stubborn. A simple compromise would put you in a position to work towards the broad acceptance and canonization of many of Zeb's non-contradictory story points. But you seem more intent on forcing everyone else to accept every word of Zeb's as canon. (That statement is not a personal attack, but a wake-up call. You're the stubborn one here. I would be on your side if the majority accepted Zeb's as canon, but because it is not, I have to take the other position. I am simply arguing for the majority.) View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
October 23, 2014 - 9:17pm | I realized that there is another compromise to be had: Zeb's fans accept that Zeb's is an alternate universe created by Kimber Eastland alone and therefore incompatible with AD/KH in parts, such as the governance we have been discussing. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
October 23, 2014 - 10:11pm | Had a dream last night about a penal colony where the descendants of convicts had the chance to win a lottery giving them access to a ship to leave on. I won't go into the dream because after waiting all day to post about it I have forgotten most of it and now remember only what I had made up to adapt the dream to a SF game. Two things I do remember from the dream. There is a woman who has access to and guards a ship that is held for emergencies like evacuation. There is a guy who is a big of a con man who is always trying to get aboard the ship to leave and the woman is always foiling his schemes. I figure for an SF game this would best be a penal moon where the convicts work out their life sentences. They are free to move about and work at whatever trade keeps them feed, clothed, and housed. Those that do not are given work until they demonstate responsibility to seek their prefered work/career. The Woman is one of the penal colony officials and manages the space port where the the reserve ship is always parked and ready but locked down to convicts. The con man is a convict of many years who makes his own way at some trade but suplements his income with barely legal schemes and attempts to get out of the colony. The PCs are offspring of convicts who are free and must either buy passage off colony or win the lottery. The lottery is set up to provide less fortunate offspring a chance to get off colony before working their lives away for passage. The colony is remote and self supporting so there isn't realy much money to give all offspring a free ride off colony so the lottery and hiring on as crew to the few ships that come to the colony to export the goods and drop off convicts. Also, some offspring get caught in the system and become convicts themselves. Our PCs win the lottery and are picked up by a small time ship captain who provides lottery seats in exchange for tarrif relief. Somehow our con man gets on this same ship and leaves the colony with the PCs. What I wonder that relates to this thread is about fitting a penal colony into the frontier. Where would it be? Who is the world that has established the colony? Why use a penal colony? What is the product of the colony? -iggy |
October 24, 2014 - 2:36am | @Iggy: the stupid plague worlds have always been a problem. How about a penal colony called Alpha? or Beta? Alpha was wiped out by a plague and no one is suppose to go there and ships lifting off of Alpha are to be shot as per Zebs. Beta was never contaminated. Perhaps the Con man's wife was on Alpha? and he wont be satisfied till he goes and looks for her himself? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 24, 2014 - 6:36am | NATO is not a government and yet it qualifies for all 4 points you just made. So does the U.N. Also, enforcing law is not the same as setting law.
No, you are wrong. UN and NATO do not have troops. The countries that are part of these organizations PROVIDE THEIR OWN TROOPS UNDER THE UN/NATO AUSPICE. This is VERY different than raising your own troops. |
October 24, 2014 - 6:59am | Had a dream last night about a penal colony where the descendants of convicts had the chance to win a lottery giving them access to a ship to leave on.
sounds like "The Island" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Island_%282005_film%29 |
October 24, 2014 - 7:07am | TIME OUT!I was wrong and Ascent is correct: Alpha Dawn, page 20, Glossery "United Planetary Federation - A loose alliance formed between many planetary governments after the first Sathar attacks. The UPF is not an interstellar government; it is a defense organization devoted to protecting member planets from Sathar takeover or destruction. The UPF also has its own police force, the Star Law Rangers. The Rangers track down and capture Sathar undercover agents. However, their authority is not recognized on all planets." The last part is interesting...so Star Law tracks an agent to Outer Reach but, the government refuse to allow Star Law to land to look for the agent - I could see that happening since Outer Reach is a pirate haven. Maybe the agent provided Malthar with a BIG bribe! |
October 24, 2014 - 7:42am | NATO is not a government and yet it qualifies for all 4 points you just made. So does the U.N. Also, enforcing law is not the same as setting law.
No, you are wrong. UN and NATO do not have troops. The countries that are part of these organizations PROVIDE THEIR OWN TROOPS UNDER THE UN/NATO AUSPICE. This is VERY different than raising your own troops. Thanks for the find, Jaxon. I would not have thought to look in the Glossary of the hard copy. I also respect the very outspoken declaration, though I never look for such a clear statement. Just revealing the facts is good enough. So the declaration gets big respect from this corner. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
October 24, 2014 - 2:32pm | @Jaxon. I am not familiar with The Island. I'll have to look it up. @jedion357. I was not thinking about the plague worlds. I typically ignore them. You have given me something to ponder. I am still pondering who in the frontier would establish a penal colony and why. Any ideas gang? -iggy |
October 24, 2014 - 2:58pm | The UPF, magacorporations with colonial stakes, (such as Pan Gal and Streel,) and large nationalized colonies. (I'd say having a minimum population of 1,000,000 unless it is an extremely wealthy colony. Their penal colony would likely be a local moon.) View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
