 November 18, 2013 - 6:24am | the game has classes I, II, III With class 3 being limited to building only system ships which is illogical IMO but... I think we should designate two new classes of SCCs: Class IV: is a planet based yard and can only build ships that may be launched into space fromt he ground with chemical rockets Class IVa: is a planet based yard that can build the same as a class 4 but with atomic engines Class V yards are little more than a repair shop class IV yards on planets with Industry economy and/or with Hvy population have no effective limits on the amount of hulls that can be worked on OR they can have higher number of HS being worked on. ALSO Should we rework what Class I, II, & III? Does it make sense that a class 3 yard can only make system ships? is it all that more difficult to install an atomic or ion engine over a chemical engine? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 November 18, 2013 - 3:14pm | I've always kind of ignored the system ship only rule. The Frontier has so little ship production capacity as it is, that even ignorning that rule you can only maintain about 2-3 thousand ships total for the entire Frontier based on the ship construction and maintenance rules. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 November 18, 2013 - 4:25pm | This question harks back to what kind of Frontier are you running. If this is the Frontier with the homeworlds off somewhere else then the basis for shipbuilding (not shipyards but the industry to build parts and schools to develop skilled technicians) does not really exist so there is limited ship building. If you are playing the Frontier as the only place for the PCs to exist then the basis exists and shipbuilding should be more robust. Unless there are economic reasons for limited shipbuilding. If you use Earth as an example in the 1960s a huge push to get to the moon culminated in the Apollo moon landings. Now over 40 years later there is barely the ability to keep an international space station running. Loss of public support and political will concentrating on ground problems keeping space spending very limited. Of course in the Frontier with the Sathar threat you would think there would be more effort put into ship building and crew training. Obviously the political situation there is as bad as it is on Earth. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 November 18, 2013 - 5:05pm | I like it! Class I Center - Military and Civilian ships; up to 140 hull pointsof ships can be under construction at one time. Class II Center - Military (HS: 6) and Civilian ships (HS: 14); up to 50 hull points of ships can be under construction at one time. Class III Center: Civilian ships (system ships only); up to 20 hull points of ships can be under construction at one time. Class IV Center - Military and Civilian ships; starships and system ships are built on planet-side. Any engine type is allowed. Upon completion, disposable chemical rockets are mounted to the ship to launch it into orbit. (The ship engines will not be used. These disposable rockets will add 200,000 credits to the cost of the ship - not the value.) Only ships of HS: 5 and below may be constructed on the planet due to laws, regulations and stress on the hulls. The planet must have an Industry economy and a Heavy population. Class V Center - Military and Civilian ships may be repaired only; no construction is allowed.
*Chemical Engines
**Ion Engines
***Atomic Engines
I do not believe that type IV and IVa are needed. It does not matter what the engine type is, they can mount chemical engines to the ship, launch it and once in orbit, activate the explosive bolts. The SCC can site local law and the local government can tax the SCC - it's another way to get money from the customer. As for a Class III yard, yes I believe it should remain as a system ship only. There are things such as shielding, qualified personnel, astrogation equipment, etc. Atomics are on the high end of the spectrum. Think about it, I live in a town of 3,000 people. They have a mechanic shop - 1. They can work on Ford, Chevy and Toyota. I own a Mercedes. Am I going to them to fix my car or drive 10 miles to the big city and take it to a shop that works on Mercedes? I believe THAT is the point that is made with the Class 3 Centers. I just included in red, stipulations for Ion drives. There is nothing, zip zero in the book that states the Ion drive can enter the Void. So why is it removed from the SCC chart? (I have in my campaign Ion drives and Ion Drives, Advanced. IDAs are rare and cost 50,000 credits more but, their ADF/MR is half. So a fighter with 1 IDA has ADF/MR of 3/3 and not 1/1 (rounded up). |
November 18, 2013 - 5:29pm | I would like to say that everyone is always interested in an atomic frieghter or assault scout, jumping the Void and fighting pirates or Sathar in space. Too little attention is paid to sytem ships! I ran a campaign where the PCs worked for a subsidary of Streel and later for PGC. The area of Prenglar to Dixon's Star, Truane's Star and Athor has over 9 populated worlds and moons NOT including space stations. They started as trouble shooters until their skills were 2nd to 3rd in the Alpha Dawn rules. I used the abridged spaceship skill rules and started space adventures. They were sent several times to Truane's Star to man a company mining ship to skim a gas giant for needed chemical resources. They were sent to board a 70 year old derelict in Prenglar, and fought a robot crew. For their actions, they were allowed to pay for the ship that they recovered. It was a Fair Trader with chemical engines. They were happy and wanted to sell it for a freighter or assault scout but, found that it was not worth much. They kept it and did freight runs from Gran Quivera to Morgaine's World. They transported copper, food, wood, to robots and gems. They were harassed by the UPF, company stooges to pirates and rival company men. After a year, they made enough to purchase a small merchant ship, used. (It was an Assault Scout with no rockets) They started to do runs to Yast and Exhib - BOY YO! There is nothing like being a foreigner in Athor and getting harassed by customs or having to pay to have your ship scrubbed clean! What is my point? You CAN start a campaign with only system ships and expand it! You just need to be creative. After 3 game years and a freight company that had a Fair Trader, Commercial Scout and a regular HS 5 freighter, the team decided to split up. Some wanted to stay and some wanted to go to the White Light system and join the Marines. The ones with the company retired and the Marines joined the FEF and went on to find the Saurians! The group, they had almost 10 members - OMG that was difficult to juggle. I do not recommend that to anyone. |
November 18, 2013 - 6:22pm | I still would allow for a Class IV with and without atomic certification, because some planets will build and launch atomic drive ships, some wont have the support and staff. It will largely be a judgement call on the part of the referee: med and light population planets probably wont while heavy population planets and or strong industry based economies will. Or in the case of a planet like Clarion where the cannon material says its a resource economy and a major producer of uranium -we can suppose that to be atomic fuel for star ships as a componenet of the economy. So while the orbital yard is Class III, I would rule that on the surface is a class 4 a yard with the ability to build and launch small atomic drive ships. A planet like Yast with an aggriculture economy and medium population could have a class IV yard but lack the atomic certification. Its moon Exib would having nothing more than a class V and potentially this is part of the militia's star port on the moon. Class III should be able to build ships with ion engines, they are not that big a deal compared to atomics Note I would allow PCs at a Class V yard to effect some major "red neck" or shade tree engineering to cobble something together to get into space. not that you'd want to push your luck with it but we're not talking construction really but rather mashing together parts and hulk of a hull. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 November 19, 2013 - 10:41am | This makes me think of Shadow Shacks Boneyard Station and the rejuvination of old hulks that goes on there. -iggy |
 November 19, 2013 - 7:27pm | ^^^ Yep, let's not forget the occasional scrapyard that deals with salvaging & recycling older ships. What is my point? You CAN start a campaign with only system ships and expand it! You just need to be creative.
Which summarizes the basic idea behind this project: |
 November 20, 2013 - 9:58pm | So, is the Space Ship Construction Center Class the capacity of an individual space station, or the capacity of an entire planetary system (ground docks, orbiting space stations, etc.)? |
November 20, 2013 - 10:11pm | I have always thought of it as just the station. -iggy |
 November 21, 2013 - 12:33am | Always envisioned construction centers like those orbiting cage like ship docks one sees in Star Trek. My SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
November 21, 2013 - 6:20am | So, is the Space Ship Construction Center Class the capacity of an individual space station, or the capacity of an entire planetary system (ground docks, orbiting space stations, etc.)? Good question, if it was the system then I think we need to inflate the numbers some. Since we have a setting with an interstellar economy (Is it proper to refer to it as a stellarized economy?) the livelihood manny if not most colonies is going have interstellar trade as a major component of that economy. Considering that Earth has no less than 20 places where vehicles can be launched into space and yet there is no one to trade with there it would seem odd that any planet in the Frontier above the level of outpost lacks a facility to build a vehicle to put something into orbit. If you are building a rocket to put a pay load into orbit then by default, in this setting, you are building a "system ship" Of course there is a difference between star port and a facility that builds and launches vehicles and perhaps we should talk about codify classes of star port of did we discuss that already somewhere? Because I would think you could get some service and repair done at a star port as well. We should also adress the issue of what and where the SSCs are in the Rim since that was not done in Zebs. Clearly Capella and Osak are major constructions centers, the humma home system could potentially be at least a class 2 [the population levels and economies of the inhabited planets would support this] perhaps the rest of the Rim lacks much in the way of construction ability. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 21, 2013 - 12:26pm | The reason I asked, is that there are military and civilian space stations. A military center would not need a large capacity, but they would have the best facilities. A civilian center would have a large capacity to handle all the routine traffic, and the quality of their facilities are based on companies or contractors who work their. I assume that the SSC classes note only the primary civilian center, but in my game, I like to have several stations for a given planet (at the minimum of two - at the zenith and nadir - if it lacks a large enough moon to provide any good Lagrange points). If I can help it, I also like to keep ports and shipyards in separate stations. It would be logical that the powerful Megacorps would own their own stations to service their own ships and personnel, and to keep themselves safe form corporate sabotage/espionage - seeing how they are powerful enough to own whole planets (at least by the Zeb books) owning and maintaining a chain of stations would not be beyond them. |
November 22, 2013 - 4:57pm | So, is the Space Ship Construction Center Class the capacity of an individual space station, or the capacity of an entire planetary system (ground docks, orbiting space stations, etc.)?
The Campaign Book lists two SCCs in Cassidine: a Class I at Triad and a Class III at Rupert's Hole. The list on page 9 of said book also depicts how many space stations are at each SCC. Going by that chart, it's based on the station(s) at each location. |
November 22, 2013 - 6:53pm | Yes, Shadow, but I do not believe that it includes corporate, educational or private stations. It lists SCCs, Military, Trading, etc. |
 November 22, 2013 - 9:01pm | Space Stations are hella expensive. I'm thinking that while mega-corps might be able to afford to build their own station they mostly wouldn't do it. Instead they would get in bed with the planetary government to own space in a station. Plus "trading" is possibly privately owned, perhaps by a mega-corp. ----------------------------------------------- |
November 22, 2013 - 9:17pm | When it comes to research or mining - Corps go alone, though. |
November 22, 2013 - 9:20pm | You could have smaller stations that are not large enought to use rotation to create Artifical gravity ----------------------------------------------- |
November 23, 2013 - 8:49am | Well the smallest is Station Type 1. It's 200 meters in diameter and can allow ships up to 130 x 20 meters to dock with it. The docking bay is located at the "hub", along with storage areas. There is no gravity here. The spokes of the space station contain elevator shafts which ferry people and goods to the station rim. The rim contains all the stores, restaurants, night clubs, theaters and other businesses. Because of the centrifugal force, the gravity here is 1 g. The rim is divided into several decks with the upper decks closest to the hub. These contain apartments and hotels. Above the lodging decks are the admin offices. That being said, I think that corporations and the wealthy would invest in a space station. If a billionaire would pay 30 million to fly into space or purchase a castle, why would a billionaire not purchase a space station? Why would he - because he can. As for Corporations - If you can purchase your own station or share one with Streel, CDC or PGC...why not purchase one. Even the major Corps would build one and then sublet to other companies. |
November 23, 2013 - 11:24am | Re: corporations buying/building space stations: if you look at the setting Lossend is a medium popuation world with a farming economy and yet it has a space station. It does not seem to me that this planet's population or economy would support building a space station but .... a mega corp is headquartered here so I've made yhe assumption that the station was built by Tachton. Other businesses lease space on it as the major reason for it is a orbital warhouse and shipping center for the megacorp. Naturally the farming concerns benefit from it as a shipping center and Tachton uses the donated space for the local militia for good PR. By supporting the local government and allowing it to base rangers on the station Tachton doesnt have to police local space. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 23, 2013 - 8:07pm | I loaded into "Militias of the Frontier" information on Luna Space Station. This is just an example of a rich person building a space station because they can. It is in orbit around Minotaur, Theseus but, can be set anywhere. A billionaire from Minotaur, James Luna, built this as a status symbol. But being a businessman, he set it as a gambling hub and vacation spot. It cannot take ships into it's docking bay. The two docking hubs have three collars each. A ship pulls up and docks with the docking colar and the crew can board Luna Space Station. Luna cannot construct or repair ships. (There is a NPC aboard that may be able to perform small ship repairs) Supplies are onboard to refuel and restock ships, though. Luna Space Station can accommodate about 80 guests. All Captains need to report to the Admin office for landing fees, etc. The security elements onboard carry non-lethal weapons, so it is safe to assume that lethal weapons are not allowed onboard. Weapons and defenses of any kind, cannot be purchased on Luna Station. |
November 23, 2013 - 8:45pm | Hook-Line & Sinker.... Missing... A small merchant ship (HS:3 WEA: LB DEF: RH) has docked with Luna Space Station with the past three days. Over the past 48 hours, several of the crew and passengers have started to dissappear. The PCs are accosted by Sheila (her daughter has disappeared) or by Kaal Hast, the Watch Commander (missing tourists is bad for business). The PCs are hired to find the missing people. Suggestions hint at the small merchant ship. //The merchant ship is owned by pirates. They came aboard Luna Space Station for some fun but, now they are broke, they have started to kidnap people to sell as slaves, to make some money.// It's just a crystal! Bob (or Vonair) has a small storage company. One of his customers left and did not come back. When he confiscated the locker, he found a large crystal. Now, several Yazirain thugs came to him demanding access to the locker. He does not know what to do and hires the PCs for help. //The "customer" stole an artifact from Hentz and they are not taking this lightly. The Yazirain warriors will be back for the crystal and will not take no for an answer.// I remember you! Paul Wise loaned one of his security robots to a freighter captain some time back. The captain took his 'bot and left. Paul found out that the captain has returned. He has hired the PCs to board the captain's ship and get his security robot back! // The captain is a burly man, named Ken Stella (H/M; STA 75). He is the captain of the Laughing Gale a small freighter (HS: 5). The PCs have to break into the freighter, bypass the crew and recover the security robot. The crew is 4 humans and 1 security robot.// These are just three posible adventures for the PCs to explore. Adventure Ideas... 1) M'xaie is harassed by one of the tourists. Can the PCs help the situation without making a scene...its bad for business. 2) D'Noob took some tourists out to see the planet but, they stole his shuttle and left him at Maze. He is back at Luna Space Station but, wants to hire the PCs to get his shuttle back! 3) "Magpie" has a good deal for the PCs on some weapons or defenses for their starship if they are interested? The parts are like new! (They may be hot. What happens when the owners come looking for them?) 4) Vonair is in trouble. Some guy claiming to represent Van's Storage wants to buy his business. He told him it is not for sale. He was roughed up and the next day, his shop was vandalized. He needs help. // Is Van's Storage owned by a mafia? Are they trying to muscle in the storage business on Luna Station?// 5) Bud wants the PCs to pick up this guy in Maze and bring him here. The team goes to maze to find him and is caught in a chase between the boy and several Saurians. // The boy is Bob's son. Apparently he got on the wrong side of the Saurians. Why? What happened?// 6) Glee serviced a local freighter with a Hull Raker. Unfortunately, the captain did not evacuate his ship and a crewman was...well...eaten by the Hull Raker. This is not Glee's fault but, she does not need any bad publicity. The PCs are hired to provide a briefcase to the captain. // The briefcase has in it 5,000 cr. Will this pacify the captain? What if it does not? Will the captain take it out on the PCs or hold them hostage until a ransom is paid? Is this why Glee hired them?// As you can see, the possibilities are endless at Luna Space Station! |
November 24, 2013 - 12:05am | I have also upload a useable version of SkyLab. Check under "Militias of the Frontier". |
 December 12, 2013 - 11:27pm | Somewhere on the web a few years ago, I ran across an adventure on a space station. I was pretty elaborate too. If I can find it I will post a link. Your ideas Jaxon are great and there might be some more there too. |
December 14, 2013 - 3:23pm | My problem is that too many ideas and not enough brain! |
December 14, 2013 - 7:01pm | Jax you should become a zombie and then you can get all the brains you want. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
December 20, 2013 - 1:18pm | In my adventure I'm planning... (and i hope my players don't happen to wander here -- I highly doubt it)... I'm leaving the option for the PC's to follow-up in a second advenure where they adn find a pirate station that I was planning on having constructed by frankenstiening together a bunch of captured ships some of which are system ships brough via jump-tug. Most all the ships used in the creation of this station would be non-functional and basically hulls connected together somehow but spinning from a central point to create gravity in each ship's decks. I haven't figured out what that might look like... but do you have any other ideas for a reasonable pirate base that is going to be in deep space between systems. I did want it to be an artifical base and not on a rogue planetiod or anything like that. It will represent a large organization of pirates who have become extreemly well funded over the last say... 8 months. Basically one band struck it unimaginably rich and was able to bring other bands under thier flag as the result. I'm a big boy... I can take it if you think this idea is rubbish. ----------------------------------------------- |
December 20, 2013 - 2:24pm | If you want it in deep space (i.e an unoccupied square on the Frontier map) instead of just out in the outer reaches of a star system, then your proposed idea of some sort of central hub with a bunch of ship hulls attached is probably a good idea. I actually used that exact idea as a "proto" space station in a new colony timeline I was working up for one of may campaigns. That's how they got gravity when in orbit before the first small space station could be built. In my case it was made up of working ship and they'd spin down and reconfigure whenever a ship had to come or go but doing it with "hulks" would be a great mash-up station. You just have to keep everything balanced. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
December 20, 2013 - 6:58pm | I like the idea. I have used it myself for colony founding where the remnants of the ships of the colony fleet have parts ment to be repurposed as a wheel station. The pirates would be using an established method with the parts available to them. -iggy |
 December 21, 2013 - 10:15am | Really when you think of it SF has listed the types of space stations in the game. All we ever see depicted are the rotating ring like we see in 2001. SF has never even considered an O'Neill type space station which would likely be bigger than a ring. Although for a big wheel to build a HS20 ship, it would have to be a pretty fricking huge wheel. But then if you look at sci-fi like Gundam they have clusters of the O'Neill type stations in orbit so why even limit the number of station and types in orbit around a planet? Or even in system? Jovian Chronicles has these orbital settlement in huge groups out around Jupiter, to which before FTL travel was possible it's safe to believe many planets would have stations all over the place just to have a mega-corp living near the resources. Remember the movie 'Outland' and even more adventures can be found. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
December 21, 2013 - 11:16am | I can see the homeworld systems having many stations if they took a while to develope FTL travel. However, the core 4 in the frontier didn't start here and have the luxury of just colonizing more near by systems. I would like to see an O'Neil cylinder in the frontier. I see the vrusk as comfortable building these types of structures. -iggy |
