 September 1, 2013 - 7:24pm | I've been wrestling with this for a while: there don't seem to be enough people in the UPF Spacefleet or in the Naval forces of the Frontier in General. I listed all the ships in SW2 per Knight Hawks (remastered) and the total number of personnel on mobile units, including fighters, is about 4,500. Even if you factor in Fortresses and Armed Stations and construction yards, support staff behind the scenes, the entire mobilized forces protecting the frontier come out to the equivalent today of the Canadian Armed Forces. That strikes me as a little thin for the Frontier. It's even worse if you tally up the militias: they come to a total of 500 people in mobile units. Just the Clarion Royal Marines have under 100 people on mobile units...and that doesn't feel right. Has anyone else done the numbers here? I can se landfleet numbering in the millions and therefore needing a lot of troop transport personnel, but Spacefleet just feels to small! How big is Spacefleet? How big should it be? Sam Curry |
 September 18, 2013 - 4:03am | I think too many of us come from societies that have marine corps and that skews our thinking on this. Not every society on earth does it this way and there is no real reason the UPF has to other than we simply like it that way. Thailand has 4 branches: Army, Air Force, Navy, Police (or at least it did during the 60s). Many European nations employed Naval infantry during the colonial period because ships didnt have marines or the marine contingent was too small. Many times they just rounded up a pack of sailors, issued weapons, put an ensign or other officer in charge and sent them ashore for God, country and colonial glory. With the Royal Marines of Clarion there is no navy, the Royal Marines are a combo Navy/Coast Guard in space. It might be simpler to look at Space Fleet as not having marines and employing "naval infantry" when they require a landing party. It simply requires training naval ratings in the use of small arms.And the canon statement of the Space Fleet enlisted being low quality or dregs of the space ways could be interpreted to mean they are rough and tough and know how to fight. Certainly any Space Fleet officer would consider using them as naval infantry an adequet use of them. Finally from a game perspective it might actually be better to not have marines on board a UPF vessel- that way when running a campaign and you need a boarding/landing party you assign all the PCs with issued weapons. No trying to justify assigning a handful of enlisted PCs from both the naval and marine side. Its simply, "You, you and you report to the armory for your red shirt and weapons cause we're going ashore." I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 September 18, 2013 - 8:25am | Ok, I can buy that. That makes a difference between UPF and Militia - UPF fights in space and Militia enforces customs. For a land fight - call Landfleet. That being said, you could still double the crew for the UPF. Take an Assault Scout for example: 1 Pilot (+1 Lieutenant, +1 Co-Pilot) 1 Astrogator 1 Energy Weapon Specialist 1 Rocket Weapon Specialist 1 Engineer (Chief) <+3 Engineers> The Pilot, Co-Pilot and LT are Officers so they are versed in weapons. One could be versed in Astrogation or maybe the Chief Engineer. <Cadets...graduate after 2 years with Lvl 1 in Spaceship Weaponry (either one) and Lvl 2 in their primary skill (Piloting, Astrogation or Engineering> This allows one person on the Bridge and 2 in Engineering at all times. If necessary - you have 4 or 5 crewmen for an away team. |
September 18, 2013 - 10:00am | Ok, I can buy that. That makes a difference between UPF and Militia - UPF fights in space and Militia enforces customs. For a land fight - call Landfleet. That being said, you could still double the crew for the UPF. Take an Assault Scout for example: 1 Pilot (+1 Lieutenant, +1 Co-Pilot) 1 Astrogator 1 Energy Weapon Specialist 1 Rocket Weapon Specialist 1 Engineer (Chief) <+3 Engineers> The Pilot, Co-Pilot and LT are Officers so they are versed in weapons. One could be versed in Astrogation or maybe the Chief Engineer. <Cadets...graduate after 2 years with Lvl 1 in Spaceship Weaponry (either one) and Lvl 2 in their primary skill (Piloting, Astrogation or Engineering> This allows one person on the Bridge and 2 in Engineering at all times. If necessary - you have 4 or 5 crewmen for an away team. I think that crews for assualt scouts would need to be eliet where as a frigate could allow for less quality by burying it in the quantitiy of crew it has. Assault scouts are going to be the platform that Space Fleet used for landing and scouting so your assault scout crew will be highly trained and cross trained much like a special forces team. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 September 19, 2013 - 5:53am | You could consider Assault Scout crews the same way the US Navy does submarine crews. Although a smaller vessel a submarine crew is considered elite and requires special training and selection to be assigned. Since an Assault Scout requires a smaller more self sufficient crew only the best of the "scum of the Frontier" (book quote) would be allowed to operate on them. ON the other hand militia units buy Assault Scouts because they are low cost to operate ships and serve the mixed need of a ship to patrol their system and be ready to deploy on a UPF call up. Since there are so few positions in a militia space unit (consider only 300 royal marines out of a planet population of a few million) natural selection would insure only the best of the planet be assigned to their ships. I ignore the White Light recruitment tactic as just a way for PCs from around the Frontier to get into the Royal Marines. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 September 19, 2013 - 7:35am | You could consider Assault Scout crews the same way the US Navy does submarine crews. I always thought Assault Scout ships were the SF-equivalent of a PT (Patrol Torpedo) Boat. Like a PT Boat, AS have a small crew, commanded by a Lieutenant, and are armed with anti-ship assault rockets (torpedoes) and an anti-fighter battery (AA-guns). In the case of WWII PT boats, they have a standard crew of 2-3 officers and 9-14 enlisted men. The Officers serve as Boat Captains and/or Executive Officers, while the crew are made-up of a Navigator, Radiomen, Torpedomen, Gunners, Engineers and a Ship's Cook or two. With most, they have two of each, although, they usually have more then two Engineers to better make repairs. Although, things are a little different in the frontier, as crewmen usually lack the skills needed to run a ship, so they are limited to the basic man-power operations of the ship, like maintenance, damage control, boarding actions, etc. |
September 19, 2013 - 11:33am | I think Rat t's intent was that assault scouts would naturally have elite crews because of the size and that we could think of them like subs. The PF boat might be a good analogy too. I'm betting that like the US Air Force holds bomb competitions that Space Fleet does the same and some competitions are militias vs space fleet. Since the most common ship in militias is the assault scout it would make sense that the Space Fleet vs militia competitions would be built around this vessel. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
September 19, 2013 - 12:40pm | I think Rat t's intent was that assault scouts would naturally have elite crews because of the size and that we could think of them like subs.
Exactly. We are using basic law of averages here. In a fifty beings crew you can have enough officers to whip the lazy curs into doing their jobs and even if some of the scum of the Frontier manage to goof off there are others to get the work done. On an Assualt Scout the crew is too small to have any goof offs. Everyone must do their job or the ship is going down fast. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
September 19, 2013 - 2:02pm | At one point the punishment for a Roman soldier falling asleep on duty was the execution of his whole squad. You can imagine what would happen to a drousy soldier at the hands the rest of his squad. And the habitually sleeply guard? suddenly the squad has an opening for a new guy. Even if some one was inclined to goof off on an assault scout I would guess that peer pressure would help him find some work ethic. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
September 19, 2013 - 4:21pm | Well that depends. The lazy soldier is an American Icon. One example is in the movie The Green Berets. Forget his name but the scrounger character they forced to go with them. It looked great for their unit which now had the stuff they needed to complete their base but it was all stolen from other units. We might laugh at the Navy Quartermaster who was going on and on about having everything accounted for while our "hero" flew some things off with a helicopter but anyone who has been in the military or worked at a business knows you can't run it with everyone just taking whatever they want whenever they want it. The model for Spacefleet seems to be the 18th Century British navy with its press gangs to force enlisted men onto their ships and the enlisted men portrayed as only living it up in dockside bars and whorehouses. This was also how the merchant marine of the time was portrayed. Professional slackers are what Spacefleet thinks is typical so finding the right beings for the Assault Scouts is crucial. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
September 19, 2013 - 9:27pm | you can't run it with everyone just taking whatever they want whenever they want it.... I agree but, your wrong, the current Army does have scroungers. It is an art to get what is needed without being caught. |
September 20, 2013 - 3:26am | My father, as a senior NCO in the Air Force opperated on favors (and as far as I know no theft). When a general was doing a major inspection on short notice and he couldnt pry any paint loose from civil engineers squadron he hit up a sgt. in Security Police that he'd been taking fishing since the security police squadron had just repainted its barracks and got their left overpaint. He the called in all the airmen in his shop who all owed him favors (picking them up at the bar when the could drive back to the base and sarg, I gotta get this day off sort of stuff) and on a saturday the removed everything from the shop including work benches and painted the walls and floor then reinstalled the benches and equipment. Monday & the general comes around and his first comment was, "this is the best looking shop I've seen" and the major standing their suddenly owed my dad a favor since Dad had told him he'd take care of it. I've heard numerous stories like this. Naturally we did see him a lot as he was constantly vollunteering for extra stuff and doing favors. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 October 15, 2013 - 10:49pm | In my own campaign, I tried to keep the number of ships in Spacefleet as close as possible to what it says in Knight Hawks. I assumed that the UPF did not have a big budget. So, one of the things I did was to include ships made by each civilization. After all, what ships were used in the Common Muster? The Vrusk have their own separate fleet, as do the Dralasites, Yazirians and Humans. The Human & Yazirian fleets are fairly impressive, and the Vrusk fleet is not too shabby, but the Dralasite fleet is a bit on the small side. As the UPF meets other civilizations, this secondary fleet grows. Saurians don't have much to offer at first (no fleet of their own), but they certainly have no love for the Sathar. Saurian crewmen are often found in Spacefleet. S'sessu have their own ships, although they are not very impressive. The Rim Coalition has the Flight, its own version of Spacefleet. In addition to the Flight, the Ifshnit, Osakar & Humma each have their own armadas. In my campaign, the Humma have the most impressive & well-armed fleet in the Rim. In the end, I was able to beef up the Frontier's defenses while still sticking with canon. |
October 16, 2013 - 8:39pm | As for the the small numbers of ships in SF, I see it as a means to fit in with the KH boardgame, so that 1) you can play smaller space battles, and 2) have the number of ships in the setting match-up with the number of ship counters in the box set (so the players can drop stacks of them on the Frontier Deployment Map). Personally, I would rather have each Fleet takes-up most of the available counters, and then divide the Fleet into smaller battle groups. Multiple Fleets on the same side do not have to fight in a single star system, as a full-size Fleet would be enough to defend it. ______________________ When it comes to incorporating spaceship battles into a RPG session, I see it in three types: Type-I - Internal operations (repairs, damage-control, boarding-actions, etc.) by crewmen and junior officers. This is ideal with AD characters, as they don't need ship skills to be effective. The only downside is that the the players would be at the whim of the command staff (who are NPCs), and the PCs would be running ragged around the ship as they are being blind-sighted by external threats they cannot perceive. Despite that, there is still enough room for action, as the crew heroically patch-up the ship, treat the wounded, and deal with boarding actions. Type-II - Ship operations by the Captain and command staff. This is ideal with KH characters, as spaceship skills plays a major role in the battles. Much of what the PCs are doing is siting at their battle stations dealing with external threats while all the nameless, faceless NPC crewmen are zipping around in the background (as noted above). Type-III - Fleet deployment and grand strategies by Flag Officers and ship captains. This is less of a role-playing game, and more of a tactical wargame, with each PC controlling a ship or battle group.At this level, the actions within a ship plays little or no role in the grand scheme of things, as individual ships becomes characters by their own right. The players could play as Captains of their own ships, communicating with each other by vidcom, or as a Command Staff (an Admiral and his staff of Commodores) on a Flagship. The best example of adventure at this level is Legend of the Galactic Heroes (although, a game needs not to be this epic in scale). ______________________ Although I don't use ship rules much in my games. If I did, I would make the Fleets large so they can be better broken into smaller Task Force and Patrol groups. Rule-wise, I would rather simplify the combat so I can resolve the action quickly. In a Type-I space battle, the players would have to deal with things happening to the ship, like hull breeches, fires, medevac, etc. I would not tell them about the outside battle, as everyone are too occupied to think about it - as far as the players are concern, their ship is not going to got destroyed outright. In a Type-II battle, the CPs are at their battle stations to direct the actions the ship. I would roll to see how the other ships are fairing (see below). Unlike the other ships, I would use more complicated rules to see how badly their ships is hit. And for a Type-III battle, I would have the ships fight like a game of J.U.M.P. Into the Unknown*, were combat happens at different ranges (Bombardment, Engagement, Battle, Orbital and Planetary Assault) with each type of ship reacting differently within each range band, and the combat would be handled no differently then Axis & Allies (but with a simple table to note the types of damage a ship can take). *or Justified Use of Military Power, which was an obscure wargame that had great combat rules, but poor presentation that made it so you had to rely on paperwork where counters could have really sped-up gameplay. Unfortunately, the company did not last long. |
October 17, 2013 - 4:18am | The game was played out @ Malcadon, when I did my dusty crawl through the inter net archive looking at lost SF sites i found a ship's "wiring" diagram that showed how power could be routed through the ship. When the ship took damage and knocked a system out the players had to reroute power in game. Each node in the diagram was binary with an on off switch with 1 & 0 determining which way power would go through the node. The players had to "imput" into the computer (write down on a piece of paper) an binary number of 1s and 0s and give it to the referee. If it was correct they would get power to the desired system like the laser battery for that turn. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 October 18, 2013 - 8:10pm | I had a thought (maybe I had it before), but if ships were supposed to be rare, and spacers nearly as rare (based on the really high levels of skills needed), then the low fleet numbers aren't unexpected. There is also the issue that perhaps ships need maintenance, and a lot of them are down at any time? |
