 May 8, 2013 - 4:40pm | EDIT NOTE: I've renamed this thread based on the direction of discussion I've been perhaps watching too much Firefly because the kids have been playing it and perhaps spending too much time of late with my nose buried in the Stars Without Number rule set which is to a certain degree Firefly-ish. It has me thinking about the Frontier in less pollished terms more broken down and less connected where a lot less can be counted on. More Firefly-ish. What would make the best cause for a break down of the UPF? Something where a tramp freighter could wander around and have Firefly like adventures, lots of shooting, scrambling for parts and jobs and not knowing what will happen when you set down on a planet? War is obvious I suppose and if the UPF looses we perhaps dont want the other side to really win either. Plague? possible but I'm not that in favor of it though since the premise is to ape Firefly/Serenity perhaps the plague should be an element and give us some Reaver. Ancient alien involvement- Tetrarchs are obvious here- PGC delved to deeplying into the ruins on Laco and unleashed something that impacted the whole sector. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 May 8, 2013 - 5:47pm | One option would be a rapid expansion. If you extended the Frontier in every direction and added another 100-150 worlds in a short time period the infrastructure of the core Frontier couldn't keep up and the new worlds would all be much on their own with only occasional contact. The UPF would be over extended and SpaceFleet would be taxed trying to keep order. It would give you an even more "frontier" feel. Another would be to limit spaceflight and really dial down the number of ships out there. If ships are rare, travel between worlds will be much more limited. Of course that makes it harder for the PC's to get a ship but once they do, it will give the same effect. This isn't so much a breakdown of the UPF but with limited interaction between the worlds, they will diverge more and will see the UPF as this annoying body meddling in their affairs and not give it much creedence. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
May 8, 2013 - 6:48pm | @ Terl Obar and that sets up an analogue to the core verses the outer planets in Firefly. I like it. Kind of wanted to explore what a ruined/aftermath Frontier would look like but this works too and would be compatible with most cannon matterial whereas a ruined Frontier loses compatibility. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 May 8, 2013 - 7:20pm | I view the SF universe (at least description in the original boxed sets) as pretty close to Firefly. The main UPF worlds have larger populations and cities like the core planets in FF. And there are outer systems that range from outposts to worlds with a few scattered cities. Tech is more prevalent in the core worlds (though maybe not to the level of floating estates like in FF). Alliance warships in FF seem far larger than SF UPF ships and somewhat more plentiful. FF has no aliens of course. Well at least in the half season they actually made. Maybe some Human Superiority groups came up with an alien plague or something. Plague worlds could be a source of Reavers. I guess SF would need a bunch more sparsely populated colonies/terraformed moons to really capture the FF flavor. |
May 8, 2013 - 8:31pm | Well to expand the Frontier I think you need to do it after year 111. To do this you need to increase the populations of the core AD planets all pretty much across the board and mature them more, make them more cosmopolitan and possibly more decadant. Write in a 3rd Sathar war to the timeline some time after year 111 to essentailly deal with the sathar and pave the way for expansion. Draw in maps that ring the old AD map with the exception of the Great Expanse- which should remain a great expanse. this first ring is outpost, light and moderate population colonies Draw in a second ring around that (still excluding the Great Expanse) and colonies here are outpost and light populations. create some new polities like a section of space called the Barbary Coast which is 4-5 system confederation of Pirate controlled planets- need to write in some reason as to why space fleet hasn't dealt with the Barbary Coast- perhaps they facilitated the nuking of sathar worlds. Its against UPF law to engage in orbital bombardment of inhabitated worlds so perhaps the Barbary Pirates first located sathar worlds then they were the hatch man for the UPF since they were not bound by Frontier law they could nuke sathar worlds. The Saurians would have returned home by this time and reclaimed their world- they and the mhemne might have formed a separate political entity that is not part of the UPF but rather something new that is merely on good terms with the UPF Some sathar clans have survived but they are not the boogie man they once were. klikks are turning up and a reaver like racer perhaps? and the zuraquor who are now out from under the sathar's thumb have established the "Hive Collective" which while somewhat hostile to the UPF does not engage in open hostility. Petty warlords wander the outer reaches. PCs start on the outer ring of colonies, starts could be anything but "Battle Beyond the Stars" comes to mind. The eornan stepchildren of primitives from Volturnus are now being educated enough that some are spacers and adventurers. The CFM is still a major mover and explorer. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 8, 2013 - 8:39pm | Another thing to consider is that the new and expanded map will be a mess of jump routes. By FY111 there should a plehtora of new jump routes. I think that we could come up with a new technology for interstellar travel that is easier and more effecient but that is only used by Space Fleet and the CFM, the older void jump tech is still employed on the outer outer sectors but no one is really bothering to map the routes - the UPF doesn't care becasue of the new tech. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 May 8, 2013 - 10:25pm | Yeah, one of the shortcomings I got from the established setting, was how small it felt. It has about a score of habitable planets, with most of them being well-populated, and not a lot in the way of true "frontier worlds." Even before Firefly, my heart was with Forbidden Planet and the Star Trek pilot, and how they where true "space westerns" (cowboy hats not necessary). So I use the classic worlds as the "core worlds" and add more worlds around them for small colony worlds, before they become uncharted systems. The "core worlds" would be a place to deal with adventures typical with a Cyberpunk setting (but with a lot less bionics): corporate espionage, criminal feuds, political intrigue, and the like. Adventures in "The Frontier" would be about relief missions, dealing with banditry, exploring new worlds, and so on. Both areas have a vary different vibe and play style. I have been considering a major update to the established setting, based more-or-less on the Zeb book (but not in any way canon to that book). Namely, a future where the UPF becomes a large republic after the defeat of the Sathar menace, with more member worlds, and lots of small independent worlds to explore. This would not just forwards the timeline, but also the technology available. The UPF Fleets would be larger, with more advanced ships, and the classic militia fleets would have long since been absorbed into the Federation. The small independent worlds would maintain their own rag-tag fleet of old surplus warships. Although weak, they can form a strong muster if they are facing a common enemy. This is just an idea mulling in my head not too long ago. |
 May 9, 2013 - 1:05am | @ Jedion, Some of what you are proposing is similar to the Farscape story. There are multiple confederations there and the crew is always finding some off the beaten path planet/moon that is frontierish. The FF setting and Farscapes setting could be combined. @ Malcadon, When I think back to frontier type worlds I think about the original BSG. Some of those lost planets they found were like that. One was even a western themed planet. |
May 9, 2013 - 3:47am | @ Karzan: I watched some Farscape when it was on late at night but not enough to digest the full milleu of that setting. I wouldn't want to merge it with the SF setting but rather borrow ideas from it. @ Malcadon, you and I have had the same thoughts I think. I was thinking of a setting document like/campaign guide that expands the Frontier. In the most recent Frontier Explorer (4) I worked up a small sector of space "east" of Liberty system for the Saurians to come from- star map with jump routes, and planetary footnotes. It wasn't all that hard to do. What my vision would be is starting with whats actually in the Frontier and asking ourselves what will naturally happen to this over time. and work up a timeline that goes from FY111 to FY 200? It also requires establishing some Tech levels like other systems have so you can put a note in the astrographic catalogs as to what the tech level is for a given planet and new tech needs to be adress you probably have to have a tech manual that goes from primitive to freaky body modification. Some things exist already like the organic computers that you put inside your body in the Dragon magazine issue that had them- I think thats tech for the post FY111 period. [I also think that I need to wrap up my timeline projects first to have a base line to work from though, note to self] EDIT: To map out what's in volved 1. creat a map and in this case a poster map that could be printed and laminated. I dont consider this that difficult to do but rather think some discussion of the content of that map is warrented for instance I think placing the Great Expanse at the bottom of the map as a barrier/blocking terrain feature is good and then using the xagyg nebula as a geographical obstruction that hinders direct travel to the "core" systems is a good idea. 2. Astrographic catalog and planetary footnotes are a bigger project but not overly hard, Barbary Coast Confederation and other polities might get a write up like the mega corps and cadres did in Zebs. some extrapolation of what the mega corps are doing: PGC should be a power "the company" which has its own navy and such and can function as a heavy. 3. tech levels and equipment list covering advanced tech available in the core but rare on the Frontier. 4. Need a new name for the old Frontier - core if you will but something new and the outer reaches become the Frontier. This isn't hard to do but some investment of energy should be made here as a name can be everything and you want to get the right one 5. need to fast forward space ship tech where a Space Fleet destroyer vs 3 sathar destroyers is considered a fair fight. 6. look at who the potential enemies and foils are in the updated setting and do short write ups on them as well as inter relationships between the core and the frontier. [I would also advocate spreading out the colonies more on the fringe- leave more blank space for sand box play] I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 9, 2013 - 12:38pm | I see a lot of online/magazine articles, and plenty of posts with a lot of newer technology and alien races. As I have been posting on the SF Wiki, it would be nice to but it all into prospective, and to also post background materials that dont feel like they are set in a single era. |
May 9, 2013 - 3:23pm | I see a lot of online/magazine articles, and plenty of posts with a lot of newer technology and alien races. As I have been posting on the SF Wiki, it would be nice to but it all into prospective, and to also post background materials that dont feel like they are set in a single era. I suppose a project would be in order if there was interest to work on this? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 9, 2013 - 5:54pm | Barbary Coast Confederation: 5 worlds ruled by pirate overlords who formed a confederation, each pirate lord has a different personality and all 5 sit in council with magority rules on decisions. This works out that when a referee needs a decision by pirates he rolls 5d10s and evens are yes and odds are no- majority rules. the simulates the whims and capriciousness of this government and leaves you never knowing what the government of the Barbary Coast will do which is as it should be. Naturally a referee can use GM fiat to decide a decision for story sake if he needs to. The Barbary Coast is midway between the Old frontier and the New Frontier and thus its not as hard scrable as the new frontier. Astrographically its somewhat protected from intervention of Space Fleet directly due to the Xagyg Nebula, though its rumored that the pirates know routes through the nebula that Space Fleet has not ferreted out and these are carefully guarded. thus on the map the Barbary coast would be north of the Old Frontier and base don teh look of the poster map I have sitting next to me I would make it North east of the old frontiers beyond Donal's Reach. Saurain Sector: the Saurians retook their homeworld during SW3 and have begun rebuilding there, they have a strong naval force as a legacy of the drive to retake their world. As per the norms for their society they have a loosely organized government but have not formally joined the UPF. they have been sending out scout expeditions to search for the saurian ark ships that fled before the sathar menace. Saurian is located East of Liberty System The saurian have decomissioned excess ships and offer them for sale at a discounted price. Ships of a questionable pedigree can be purchased in the Barbary Coast for cheap money and dont ask too many questions. North and West somewhere is the "Hive" - the zuraquor are liberated from sathar control but they are not looking to hold hands with the UPF and sing "Cum by Yah" They have a system and possibly some small outposts, this should be thought of much like the system of mechano was thought of in Zebs- perhaps the Hive is a protectorate or territroy of the UPF The Rim has expanded West and then north and west or perhaps the CFM has - not sure which it is. The CFM actually facilitated colonization by providing cheap transport out to the fringe and then trading with Haven't thught through where and how PGC fits into the picture but I think we need one corporate oligarchy in the mix I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 9, 2013 - 7:32pm | Jedion, Have you thought of putting the Alternity races into the setting. I thought they were well thought out races and would fit well into the Frontier. They couldeasily have their own scetor. The Fraal being in their city ships would make a good addition to a larger and expanded Frontier. Having a race that travels from place to place with no homeworld except for their ships seems cool to me. |
May 10, 2013 - 2:14am | I was thinking largely in terms of whats there from cannon and expanding on that. pushing it forward as it were. adding alternity races is possible but just with cannon races there are a dozen playable races for the Player to choose from : AD: 4 races Zebs: 3 races Volturnus: 4 races (eorna and the primitives should all be playable during this time frame) Saurians: 1 race (in reality its 4 races but we'll call it 1) thats a lot and then we have, sathar, klikks, mechanons, zuraquor and a postulated Reaver race. I dont see the need to add in the alternity races but they are something individual referees could add. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 May 10, 2013 - 7:16pm | I see a lot of online/magazine articles, and plenty of posts with a lot of newer technology and alien races. As I have been posting on the SF Wiki, it would be nice to but it all into prospective, and to also post background materials that dont feel like they are set in a single era.
Alternity, Gurps and Traveller use the concept of Tech Levels (TL) and break a master equipment down into tiers based on them. Something like this might be helpful overall. I have a VERY VERY simple version of this going in my setting. I am planning on merging my setting with Alternity in the future, and plan on their being a higher tech level in "The Verge" than in the Frontier and Rim. So Frontier Tech being TL 6: Lasers, etc. from SF Canon TL 7: Pulse Lasers - variable SEU is gone. Rate of Fire goes up, damage in heat and impact, so Albedo only will absorb 50%, the remainder is inertia damage. Caseless Projectile Weapons - fired by a charge rather than chemical propellant. Mono filament blades Greater variety of weapons. TL 8: Blasters, Magnetic Field Weapons, etc. |
 May 11, 2013 - 12:18pm | Playing a little catch up here but there is a greater force which can take down the UPF and lead to a not post apoc scenario but think more like the old "Dark Angel" show. That's right economic meltdown. Thinking there is a depression caused by one or more of the mega-corps over extending themselves. They are "too big to fail" and the UPF tries to prop them up only to find out they are "too big to save". Snowball effect and soon it is every planet for themselves. Those who can keep ships in the void can make a living but the dangers are great both in space and on the ground without the safety net of the UPF and Star Law. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
May 11, 2013 - 6:44pm | Playing a little catch up here but there is a greater force which can take down the UPF and lead to a not post apoc scenario but think more like the old "Dark Angel" show. That's right economic meltdown.
Thinking there is a depression caused by one or more of the mega-corps over extending themselves. They are "too big to fail" and the UPF tries to prop them up only to find out they are "too big to save". Snowball effect and soon it is every planet for themselves. Those who can keep ships in the void can make a living but the dangers are great both in space and on the ground without the safety net of the UPF and Star Law. Art imitating life, eh? |
 May 11, 2013 - 8:08pm | From what I recently read, the firefly universe take place in a single large solar system. There is no indication of routine interstellar travel and the accounts from both Serenity and firefly leave me with the impression that interstellar travel to this solar system was via slow boat. There are no indications at all in the show that FTL is ever used. Core worlds of the Alliance have the best resources and technology and the fringe worlds make due with what is available or left overs from the Alliance. I always viewed the two settings as different but very compatible. You wouldn't necessarily have to advance to the timeline to play the Frontier Sector in a firefly-esque fashion. You would only have to change your perspective on setting and adjust to the fact that SF takes place in several smaller and tightly knit solar systems. The only huge difference is that Firefly has artificial gravity and SF doesn't. They both have laser guns (though these are mostly in the core in FF) both have skimmers, both have spacecraft, both have air cars, both have sonic weapons (see ep. "Ariel"), their are more alike then not. The major difference is there are no aliens in FF. And not to mention, FF has a much more plaussible and pracitical view of psionics. |
 May 11, 2013 - 8:29pm | Yes FF is a single large solar system with most planets and moons terraformed. There is no FTL travel. Humanity took a one way trip. -iggy |
 May 11, 2013 - 8:42pm | According to the canon material the UPF is a voluntary association to defend against the Sathar and protect shipping lanes. While the case could be made that it's like the original 13 American colonies or the Confederate States of America, it really sounds like the United Nations to me. That being said, there are a lot of ways for the UPF to end. The most likely cause for its demise would be the end of the Sathar threat. This could be real or imagined. As soon as the external threat is gone, the planetary governments of the frontier will begin to turn on each other or at least be less interested in the common good. |
May 11, 2013 - 11:30pm | I don't know how many people here know about Serenity the Role-Playing Game, but for those who never heard of it, or those how don't own it, but I highly recommend getting it, if you're a fan of the setting! |
May 12, 2013 - 2:44am | clearly you make adjustments from FF to SF but the basics are there in both people fly in a ship to visit a different planet.certain things are more plausible in FF but then others are a stretch. The ability to terraform is near magical. I think a percieved view of the sathar threat being delt with in a SW3 but the reality being that only a few sathar clans have been dealt with. The war was an unpopular drain and a new president was elected to the council of worlds promising to end it and bring the troops home declares the end after nuking a few sathar worlds. Toss in the economic meltdown rattraveller suggests and you could fragment the UPF. question is what happens to the organs of the UPF? Space Fleet has all those hulls and space fortresses. They dont just disappear, well military hardware does disappear but the reality is that it still exists somewhere. I can see the government of Clarion taking over the Space Fleet fortress in orbit above it. If the UPF is fragmenting what happens to the navy is an important question. Ground Fleet can be defunded and the hardware just sits on the planet where it was. No doubt what we saw in the Nicolas Cage movie "Lord of War" will happen to a lot of that hardware or the local government will swoop in and nationalize/confiscate it. But what will happen to space fleet. Interstellar ships are important. some probably end up in the hands of folks like the Barbary Coast Confed. The MSO, Medical Services org will defund and close shop though a few dedicated scientist might hang on in a lonely lab somewhere or local governments might take over running labs on their soil. Prengular and Cassidine probably rely on the MSO and haven't worried about developing their medical establishment much so when the UPF fragments and the MSO is defunded these systems are hit harder. Most others have their own native medical establishments and yazirian planets have traditionally resorted to the clan taking care of its members though they also will have some national med facilities Star Law- I think the Rim Branch of Star Law will continued with business as usual as its probably already funded by the Rim coalition. But in the UPF if there is an economic crash and Star Law becomes unfunded what happens? no doubt most of the law men simply go over to private sector. On a light population world (or even an outpost) a lone marshal might become the local marshal supported locally and simply continue business as usual. STar ship constructuion centers are probably already in the control of private companies, mega corps or local governments. BTW, which megacorps are the too big to let fail/to big to save? PGC? Streel? both of these own their own systems. I think I'd like to see some of the megacorps break up into "baby Ma Bell's" like what happened when MCI finally broke the phone monopoly. Star Play is so widespread that in an economic melt down I can see it fragmenting into regional SPs, perhaps PGC does as well. rival top execs in Prengular, the corporate headquarters, and Pan Gal the corporate owned system claim to be the CEO of PGC and a brief new chapter in the history of corporate wars is written with factions within a company fighting each other. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 12, 2013 - 4:26am | Space Fortresses would probably be taken over by whichever local government would be closest as they are to important to ignore. Larger warships would be a different story. They need supplies, parts and maintenance facilities. Depending on the captain and crew they would either jion up with local governments or take over docking/repair facilities and run their own little empires with them. The Mega-corps might be the more interesting problems. Remembering that they are often very connected to the trade routes like globalization on an interplanetary scale. Without this and since many have subsidaries which might now take the chance to get free you could have fractured Mega-corps all over the place. Given their love of mercenaries to handle problems this could get really interesting. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
May 12, 2013 - 6:36am | Under a sathar threat removed & economic collapse scenario you wont not really need to advance the time line vary far. The time line ends with FY111 and a celebration of the UPF's existance. Year 113 could be the start of the SW3 and we can say it was long duration and a drain on the economy and that the UPF were the aggressors taking the fight to the sathar. Its partly pushed forward by megacorps wanting the sathar threat pushed back to make way for exploration, colonization and new resource exploitation. This leads to an explansion of known space in all directions save for the Great expanse. The new colonies are mostly outposts, and light population affairs. Call it a decade to 15 years for SW3 which takes us to 121 to 126 FY. Give it another 25 years for the collapse to reach critical mass. Project backward in time some colonization and exploration prior to FY 111 as well. Write in a yazirian civil war where Hentz has an open break with Scree Fron and Yast as another contibuting factor post SW3. Hostile corporate take overs within corporations abjuticated with the mercenaries that rat t mentioned. I rather like whats emerging here. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 12, 2013 - 6:44am | The corporations could try to take over. -iggy |
May 12, 2013 - 10:46am | Since this started it thought you might be interested: http://www.thewarstore.com/product82905.html It's a boardgame Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
May 17, 2013 - 11:03pm | What if you did not have SW3? What if the sathar just pulled out and then the econimic collapse happens. Over time all the above suggestions happen and we see in about 30-50 years a very less unified Frontier. Megacorps, The UPF, Starlaw, SpaceFleet, Landfleet, all of it falling apart, then go ahead 200-300 years and the sathar return. Now they have to deal with a threat they had forgotten or ignored as they stopped seeing it as a threat and their own innner problems have made them vulnerable again. Basically, just make the sathar go away and have the collapse. Then if in the future someone wants to bring them back they can., |
May 18, 2013 - 1:26am | There was a long lull between SW1 & SW2. A long "pull out" would be seen through the lens of priro experience. A SW3 initiated by the UPF that brings the war to the worms and wipes out "home planets" would generate the perception of a "peace dividend" where its safe to not spend so much money on space fleet and where there is less need to stay solidly banded together in a federation. I feel this would be a path to weakening the UPF faster in a shorter period of time, which would be preferable from a stand point of portraying advanced tech. Too long a period and you will have to protray really advanced tech. It would be illogical to do otherwise. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 May 19, 2013 - 8:02am | "Earth-that-was could no longer sustain our numbers, we were so many. We found a new Solar system — dozens of planets and hundreds of moons. Each one terraformed — a process taking decades, to support human life, to be new 'Earths'. The Central Planets formed the Alliance. Ruled by an interplanetary parliament, the Alliance was a beacon of civilization. The savage outer planets were not so enlightened and refused Alliance control. The war was devastating, but the Alliance's victory over the Independents ensured a safer universe. And now everyone can enjoy the comfort, and enlightenment of true civilization." – River Tam's teacher, Serenity. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
May 19, 2013 - 8:12am | There are currently plans to terraform Mars by using a microbe that creates heat. The idea is to heat up the ice beneath the surface, causing the ground to release the moisture and use other plants and microbes to transform the moisture into breathable atmosphere. Once that happens, the rest takes care of itself. However, there exists a problem with this in that the low magnetic field and low gravity would not permit the air to rise very high and there would be a perpetual lack of air pressure. Thus, you would end up with a John Carter's Mars situation in which the atmosphere would need to be constantly pressurized by artificial means or it will fail and everyone will suffocate to death...No one said the plan was perfect. However, living miles beneath the surface in a tunnel system would be a viable option. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
May 19, 2013 - 11:55am | It's not that the atmosphere wouldn't rise very high due to the low gravity, it's that it would rise too high and escape into space. The gravity of the planet is such that the escape velocity is below the mean motion velocity of the gas and it just flies away. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
