 January 24, 2013 - 8:28am | Page 20 of AD original rule book has the rules for swimming. Everybody swims for 1 hour free then loses 5 STA every half hour of continuous swimming after that. Do we like this rule? Should that apply to a character in full equipment? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 February 8, 2013 - 5:00am | I would like to bring up one other minor point. Look through the rulebooks, magazines, modules, and artwork posted in these forums. Do you see any pictures of Yazirians with tied down pataquims? Nope, I haven't. That's because no one ever brought it up. 30 years after, and it only just got brought up. Why? Because humans don't have glide flaps hanging from our wrists down to our ankles and getting caught on counters and wrapping around equipment and getting yanked by wall hooks or shredded in combat or any number of injuries to the attached limbs as a result of flaps getting yanked.If Yazirians favor glide flaps, then certainly they would want to insure that they are protected from damage that could make them useless. So whether they use them a lot in a gliding culture or not, they would want to protect themselves from everyday injuries. As for a culture where everyone glides where they need to go, those whose glide flaps have been injured and rendered useless are crap out of luck. It would be like hamstringing an animal. So I doubt the culture would be so fixated in the use of their glide flaps as you previously suggested. Perhaps some hardcore Taliban-like faction might, in which they euthanize anyone that becomes useless, but Yazirians in general are not expressed as being so violent and ruthless. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 February 8, 2013 - 10:04am | let me get this straight now yazirians tie down their pataquim to prevent injury ok so then so the humma dock their tails or tie them to to their backs so they dont get caught in doors and ifsnits shave their beards since long hair is dangerous in space travel and vrusk all wear corrective eye glasses to bring their sight into alignment with the other races to prevent injury caused by differences between races and dralasites only use two arm two leg configuration because using others would require different sets of safety equipment or maybe each race is different and needs to be treatedbdifferenly Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
February 8, 2013 - 6:18pm | Once again going beyond the point made with limited thinking. I'll say one thing: you're consistent. I don't care to chase your wild misrepresentations at every turn. The Humma tail was almost reasonable, but the others were ridiculous. I'll humor you by addressing the Humma tail. They can control it with muscles and thus know where it is at all times and can avoid damage to it. You have denied that route in your reasoning for Yazirian glide flaps, therefore muscle control doesn't apply and other safety measures would be necessary. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
February 8, 2013 - 7:09pm | Now your being insulting and ridiculous. But you started that way so it is what I expected. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 February 8, 2013 - 8:16pm | Alright boys, knock it off and get back to discussing rules for swimming. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
February 18, 2013 - 8:39am | Reviewing and expanding once again: Humans swim but lose 5 Sta points after 20 minutes Yazirians swim but lose 5 Sta points after 10 minutes due to the drag of their gliding skin flaps Vrusk swim but don't like to and lose 5 Sta after 5 minutes due to having their breathing holes in the water. Dralasites can't just dive into the water since they would just sink. They need to not only configure limbs better suited to swimming but also a breathing pole since they breath through their skin some must be kept above the water. Humma swim at double rate and lose 5 Sta every 20 minutes do to their powerful legs and tail but do suffer when trying to keep their heads above water because of small arms. Ifsnits swim like Humans but at half rate since their like really short. Osakar kinda bob in the water. Actually they generally avoid the water. Sathar swim at double rate and lose 5 sta every hour. These guys are built for water having bodies that are stream lined and tails used for propulsion like they do on land. Face it if you need to escape by water from the Sathar you might as well give up. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
February 19, 2013 - 9:13am | How do you come to Humma swimming at double rate and Osakar bobbing? Without strong arms, Humma have little to keep their pear-shaped bodies moving in an organized way. Speaking of being pear-shaped, that is a big hindrance to speed, and their narrow legs may be good for jumping, but that's all they're designed for, not sustained movement. Ever seen a kangaroo swim? It's not going to happen, at least not well. Osakar bobbing? 2 upper arms with 6-fingered hands, and 4 arms with 6-fingered hands in place of legs shaped and positioned in a way ideal for getting thrust in water, that is, 6 arms altogether, and they "bob"? View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
February 18, 2013 - 12:46pm | Couple of disputes here: 1) a dralasite would sink but if he spends 10 minutes creating air pockets he becomes his own life vest- ie swims without losing any stamina - pretty sure i read that but not sure where maybe in the star questions in the dragon magazine or the one dragon article about water and SF. 2.) The humma tail is 1/2 prehensile and thus has some good "grouse motor skill" so they probably use it to good effect like a snake or eel i would also say that if they are boyant enough to float then the swim just fine without good arms- I swim just fine without my arms but for a humma if you figure in their massively muscled lower legs and tail and they do just fine swimming (they might leave an oil slick on the surface of the water but they so alright). Ifshnit swimming at half- thats a good call. Osakar? Are you kidding? I have little doubt that the are powerfull swimmers, due to lower body mass and four legs- the quite simply do the osakar version of the breast stroke and look a little like a squid swimming but might be the best swimmer in all the frontier. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 18, 2013 - 1:18pm | Snakes don't have tails, they are tails. It requires the full length of their bodies to perform thrust. Humma can't use the full length of their bodies to produce thrust in that way. The Humma tail may give them balance, but not thrust, and their legs are not made for underwater thrust, but could only give burst thrusts and that without a push-off. With a push-off, they can get a good initial thrust, but after that, they'll suffer, because jumping legs will do them no good. At best, they would have equal speed to humans. Not only that, but jumping is about energy conservation. They would get quickly warn out because of their constant need for air to supply their constant thrusting that they wouldn't need for land hopping. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 December 18, 2013 - 2:40am | Jedion, according to that Dragon magazine article you mentioned, Dralasites are able to swim very well. They can pull in their arms & legs and take a more hydrodynamic torpedo or dolphin-like shape This is canon, stated by the makers of the game in response to a question about whether Dralasites can swim. Hope this helps.  |
 January 2, 2014 - 9:59am | Meh, I just assume all backpacks can act as floatation devices and call it a day! As far as their movement speed, I honestly haven't enountered that in a game, yet. I like the comments of applying different speeds to different races, and the endurance drain per minute (with a "cramp" check to go along with that). |
 March 7, 2018 - 10:04am | I think I'll ask a question under this topic, since it seems related. The Alpha Dawn rules provide information on to handle leaping, vaulting, falling and jumping, but ignores the effects of jumping or diving into water (or some other suitable material, let's say foam packing popcorn). In fact, the subsection head says "Falling, Jumping and Diving" on page 20 (PDF of the original rules) but there aren't any rules on diving! Now, I would say a skilled swimmer can probably dive a greater distance without being injured (provided the water is deep enough) than an unskilled character. Some standard water diving towers are 5 meters, 7.5 meters, and 10 meters tall. Movies often show characters diving or jumping into water at greater distances Then there's cliff diving:  So, has anyone come up with house rules on this topic? Has anyone tackled this subject elsewhere? Joe Cabadas |
March 7, 2018 - 10:06am | PS, I'm tried to reduce the size of the cliff diving picture, but I am unable to do so. Before hand, I was able to grab the bottom right corner of the photo while in edit mode and drag it to a more appropriate (and smaller) size, but I seem unable to do that now. Joe Cabadas |
March 7, 2018 - 10:10am | Now, from the How Stuff Works website: https://adventure.howstuffworks.com/outdoor-activities/water-sports/cliff-diving3.htm Cliff diving from any height can't be called safe -- it's one of the most dangerous extreme sports. In fact, official tourism sites of popular cliff diving destinations don't promote the activity.
Cliff diving puts tremendous stresses on your body. If you jump from 20 feet (6 meters) above the water, you'll hit the water at 25 mph (40 kph) -- the impact is strong enough to compress your spine, break bones or give you a concussion [source: Glen Canyon Natural History Association]. But that's only if you enter feet-first in a straight, vertical line -- a horizontal, or "pancake," landing is like hitting concrete. Halving the height of the jump to 10 feet (3 meters), as mentioned earlier, reduces your speed of impact to 17 mph (27 kph), and even cars sustain damage when hit at that speed. Because of the high potential for injury, the World High Diving Federation recommends that no one dive from 20 meters (65.5 feet) or higher unless there are professional rescue scuba divers stationed in the water [source: World High Diving Federation]. Bruises, dislocated joints, broken bones, compressed spine, injured discs, paralysis and death are among the injuries that cliff divers experience.
Competitive cliff divers dive from heights of 59 to 85 feet (18-26 meters), but professional show divers in Acapulco, the La Quebrada Cliff Divers, sometimes jump from 148 feet (45 meters) above the water [sources: World High Dive Federation, Red Bull Media Service, Vacations Made Easy]. These show divers survive to dive another day because they've trained for years, are familiar with the area and adjust their dives according to fluctuating wave and water conditions. But even they occasionally sustain injuries. The WHDF considers water depths of 43 to 49 feet (13 to 15 meters) adequate for dives from 65 feet (20 meters) or less, but water clarity is also a critical factor for cliff diving safety. Hitting the water badly from a height can cause injury, but hitting something in the water -- a rock, a branch, the bottom, even a fish -- or the water body's floor can be fatal. Choppy waters and high waves often obscure the surface of the water and interfere with the precision of entry, but world champion cliff diver Orlando Duque says that waves break the surface of the water and soften impact. Entering the water on the peak of a wave shortens the dive, and any acrobatics must be completed early in the dive so you can get your body into proper position for water entry. Joe Cabadas |
March 7, 2018 - 10:12am | Of course, one would have to think about how Yazarians should be able to dive/glide farther without taking damage. Probably a Humma could jump down/dive farther too. Then you'd toss in the optional gravity rules. Hey, TerlObar, you got to throw some of this into the Yazarian Gliding discussion! Joe Cabadas |
March 7, 2018 - 10:56am | Well, here's my idea for some diving into rules... Characters who fall flat -- face up or down -- onto the surface of the water take falling damage as per the Alpha Dawn rules. Untrained characters can dive into water without taking falling damage from a distance of 10 meters (Yazarians can double this distance due to their gliding ability). After that, calculate falling damage. A character with the Zeb's swimming skill -- this could probably be a nice military skill under the PSA system -- can safely dive into water from a height of 20 meters (40 for a Yazarian), without taking falling damage. Joe Cabadas |
March 7, 2018 - 11:04am | OK, well, how deep does the water have to be for these high dives? After all, if the water is only 1 meter deep when you've dove in from 20 meters head first, you have some serious problems. So, from: https://www.thoughtco.com/water-depth-and-safe-diving-1100176 At a minimum, a pool with a one-meter springboard must be 11.5 feet deep at a point directly underneath the tip of the diving board. For a three-meter springboard or five-meter platform, the water depth must be 12.5 feet (4 meters) deep, and 16 feet (5 meters) deep for a 10-meter platform. These pool depths are always listed either on the pool deck or on the side of the pool. Olympic Diving Well DepthThe diving well for Olympic diving must be at least five meters deep. This allows it to be used for the 10-meter platform diving competition and the 3-meter springboard competition. How Deep is the Pool You are Diving Into?Those are the minimums, but not every pool is the same. Some may be 15 feet deep, others 18 feet. The point is that when a diver trains in a pool that is 15 feet deep and then trains or competes at a pool with only 12 feet of water, the bottom will come much quicker than what they are used to. It can be quick enough that if the diver does not make adjustments such a strong somersault save, they may find themselves unprepared for the possibility of sustaining an injury. Each time you head to a new pool, check the water depth under the diving board and make the necessary adjustments for safe diving. Pool Depths and Diving SafetyThe standards are set taking into account that when diving from a ten-meter platform, a diver in a streamlined position will come to a stop at a depth of between 4.5 and 5 meters. Typically, competition divers roll in the direction of the dive's rotation as they enter the water and come to a stop at about 2.5 meters below the surface of the water. Hitting the water flat in a belly flop from 10 meters would be very painful and could result in injury, but would result in a stop about one foot under the surface. A lawsuit stemming from a 1993 injury from a springboard installed on a residential pool resulted in a $6.6 million award to the plaintiff against the National Spa and Pool Institute for their inadequate standard of a minimum depth of 7 feet, 6 inches (2.29 meters). Great caution should be taken when using a springboard in a residential pool built before 2001 following those standards. The plaintiff became a tetraplegic after diving with his hands at his sides. Most diving tragedies occur when people dive from rocks, bridges, and hillsides into natural bodies of water rather than from diving boards and platforms into commercially-built pools. They do not know the depth of the water or understand that 16 feet (5 meters) should be the minimum for any high dive. Joe Cabadas |
March 7, 2018 - 11:06am | So, part of the takeaway from the pool diving information is this: ...when diving from a ten-meter platform, a diver in a streamlined position will come to a stop at a depth of between 4.5 and 5 meters. Typically, competition divers roll in the direction of the dive's rotation as they enter the water and come to a stop at about 2.5 meters below the surface of the water... This should provide some information to chew on. Joe Cabadas |
March 7, 2018 - 11:10am | Of course, some of this information only covers diving into water, not jumping into water. Joe Cabadas |
 March 7, 2018 - 2:05pm | Then there's this... (yes, there's a trick behind it...) |
March 7, 2018 - 2:13pm | Experienced Cliff jumper here, I say cliff jumping since diving is rarely done. I've jump in quarries in Maine and MA. Namely Quincy Quarries before they were filled- wonderful swimming whole but its no more (filled with dirt from the big dig). I've never had a problem with jumping from 10 to 30 feet. Lots of fun never injured. Although you do want to land feet first. I've jumped from 50 feet several times, 70 a few times and 90 once. These jumps can be done and I did them with a younger body but at my age I would only attempt them in dire need but I have some confidence that my experience which I would rate far above level one in SF terms may just carry me through. I have been injured. They say that at great height you need to break the tension of the surface of the water before entering it the supposed effective method is to toss a handful of pebbles and immediately jump behind them. I've tried this and I'm not sure it works because a 90' jump is like being slammed. I jack hammered my knee into my chin and thankfully my tongue was not in the way of the teeth. I left the water sore and exhausted. On one occassion jumping from 70' I was showing off and landed with my feet out in front of me in a sitting position more or less and walked with a limp for a week, it was very difficult to climb stairs during that time. Now I had a Marine buddy in college who taught me something he learned in the Marine Corp for occassions when they had to jump out of a perfectly good helicoper into water and they didn't know how deep the water was. I've done this technique many times and it works it causes your body to plane out of the water from great hieghts or not go deep at all from low hieghts. I literally came flying out of the water feet first all the way up to my waste from a 50' jump lots of water up the nose but I stayed at the top of the water without penetrating deep. Dam if the Marines dont know what they are doing with this technique cause it works. So If I had to jump again I'd use the Marine technique and probably not be hurt, someone with a 20 to 30 year old body can do it and probably not be hurt unless they screw the landing. so in my estimation its about technique and or being dum lucky or just having a young body that can take it. EDIT: I should add that I did not know the Marine technique for the 90' jump but I'm not interested in finding out how it would work on a 90' jump. I would also caution someone to have swimmers ready to fetch them out of the water after a 90' jump. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 7, 2018 - 2:33pm | Experienced Cliff jumper here, I say cliff jumping since diving is rarely done. I've jump in quarries in Maine and MA. Namely Quincy Quarries before they were filled- wonderful swimming whole but its no more (filled with dirt from the big dig). I've never had a problem with jumping from 10 to 30 feet. Lots of fun never injured. Although you do want to land feet first. I've jumped from 50 feet several times, 70 a few times and 90 once. These jumps can be done and I did them with a younger body but at my age I would only attempt them in dire need but I have some confidence that my experience which I would rate far above level one in SF terms may just carry me through. I have been injured. They say that at great height you need to break the tension of the surface of the water before entering it the supposed effective method is to toss a handful of pebbles and immediately jump behind them. I've tried this and I'm not sure it works because a 90' jump is like being slammed. I jack hammered my knee into my chin and thankfully my tongue was not in the way of the teeth. I left the water sore and exhausted. On one occassion jumping from 70' I was showing off and landed with my feet out in front of me in a sitting position more or less and walked with a limp for a week, it was very difficult to climb stairs during that time. Now I had a Marine buddy in college who taught me something he learned in the Marine Corp for occassions when they had to jump out of a perfectly good helicoper into water and they didn't know how deep the water was. I've done this technique many times and it works it causes your body to plane out of the water from great hieghts or not go deep at all from low hieghts. I literally came flying out of the water feet first all the way up to my waste from a 50' jump lots of water up the nose but I stayed at the top of the water without penetrating deep. Dam if the Marines dont know what they are doing with this technique cause it works. So If I had to jump again I'd use the Marine technique and probably not be hurt, someone with a 20 to 30 year old body can do it and probably not be hurt unless they screw the landing. so in my estimation its about technique and or being dum lucky or just having a young body that can take it. EDIT: I should add that I did not know the Marine technique for the 90' jump but I'm not interested in finding out how it would work on a 90' jump. I would also caution someone to have swimmers ready to fetch them out of the water after a 90' jump. Well, your experiences lend credence to using the SF falling damage rules to simulate jumping into water from great heights. I certainly haven't made those kinds of jumps, but know from jumping off of a normal 15-foot diving tower (rather than the one Shadow Shack has shown above) that I wasn't hurt. I didn't try diving from that height though. I'll chew on this a bit more... Joe Cabadas |
March 7, 2018 - 5:21pm | Revised: Well, here's my idea for some diving into rules... Characters who fall flat -- face up or down -- onto the surface of the water take falling damage as per the Alpha Dawn rules. Untrained characters can jump/dive into water without taking falling damage from a distance of 10 meters (Yazarians can double this distance due to their gliding ability). After that, calculate falling damage. ...well, 10 meters equals nearly 33 feet, so that fits Jedion's experience... A character with the Zeb's swimming skill -- this could probably be a nice military skill under the PSA system -- can safely dive into water from a height of 20 meters ... that's 65 feet... or 40 meters for a Yazarian... which is 131 feet... without taking falling damage. For each meter afterward, the character takes 1 point of damage. So, that 100 meter (328 foot) jump for an untrained character would cause... drum roll... 90 points of damage. Does this seem reasonable? Joe Cabadas |
March 7, 2018 - 8:53pm | a yazirian can glide down his glide distance as per gravity. He could probably glide out off a cliff and then cut short his glide with a jacknife and dive. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 7, 2018 - 9:42pm | a yazirian can glide down his glide distance as per gravity. He could probably glide out off a cliff and then cut short his glide with a jacknife and dive. That's why we need the Yazarian gliding discussion finished. It looks like it won't be a Frontier Explorer magazine article given Tom Stephens announcement about WoTC's demands, but at least we can have something... while this website lasts. Joe Cabadas |
March 7, 2018 - 10:27pm | Here's an idea: Diving/Jumping into Water. Jumping into watercan be dangerous. If a character hits the water horizontally – also called a “pancake”landing – from more than 5 meters, it would be like hitting the ground. Thecharacter would take falling damage. For example, a character falling 6 metersand lands on the water horizontally would suffer 1d5 + 1 points of damage (thefirst 5 meters will not count). However,an untrained character can jump or dive into the water from a distance of 10 meters without taking damage. Humma have double the safe diving distance – up to 20 meters – before taking damage, while Yazarians triple this distance to 30 meters due to their gliding ability. For each meter afterward, a characterwould take 1 point of damage. Optional:Characterswith the Swimming skill can double their safe diving/jumping distance. Players can also use experience points to increase their characters’ safe diving distances by 2 meters per experience point. Humma whohave have the Swimming skill can now safely jump down 40 meters into water; Yazarians can glide and then dive down 60 meters without suffering damage. Joe Cabadas |
 March 8, 2018 - 2:30pm | A character that just falls randomly into water should take normal falling damage. A human that tries to dive, either head for feet first, must roll against Dexterity. Success means effective height fallen is halved. Unless a dralasite has taken the time to make its body pointy enough to dive like a human, it always takes full damage. If it does have time to adjust its body first, use the rules for humans. Vrusk bodies are much larger and more complicated. To get its body to line up right requires a -30 modifier to the Dexterity roll. Otherwise the same as humans. Yazirians may be able to glide to reduce the effective distance of a fall or dive. If so, subtract the yazirian's maximum gliding distance from the distance fallen. Then use the rules for humans to calculate effective falling distance. However, a yazirian who glided cannot dive; the gliding membranes get caught in the impact and cancel any benefit of performing a dive. If a yazirian has time and chooses to gather his or her membrances before hitting the water, the yazirian cannot glide but can choose to dive like a human. A yazirian that glided but still has a long way to fall cannot gather his or her membranes due to wind resistance. Sathar can dive like humans, and their worm-like, hydrostatically hardened bodies are superior at diving; they get a +10 bonus on the Dexterity check. |
March 8, 2018 - 2:37pm | A character that just falls randomly into water should take normal falling damage. A human that tries to dive, either head for feet first, must roll against Dexterity. Success means effective height fallen is halved. Unless a dralasite has taken the time to make its body pointy enough to dive like a human, it always takes full damage. If it does have time to adjust its body first, use the rules for humans. Vrusk bodies are much larger and more complicated. To get its body to line up right requires a -30 modifier to the Dexterity roll. Otherwise the same as humans. Yazirians may be able to glide to reduce the effective distance of a fall or dive. If so, subtract the yazirian's maximum gliding distance from the distance fallen. Then use the rules for humans to calculate effective falling distance. However, a yazirian who glided cannot dive; the gliding membranes get caught in the impact and cancel any benefit of performing a dive. If a yazirian has time and chooses to gather his or her membrances before hitting the water, the yazirian cannot glide but can choose to dive like a human. A yazirian that glided but still has a long way to fall cannot gather his or her membranes due to wind resistance. Sathar can dive like humans, and their worm-like, hydrostatically hardened bodies are superior at diving; they get a +10 bonus on the Dexterity check. Neat ideas. I'll see what I can incorporate. Dralasites though could make great cannonball dives. Joe Cabadas |
March 8, 2018 - 2:38pm | I'd hate giving Vrusk yet another big drawback when it comes to swimming. I think a -10 percent modifier would be enough. Joe Cabadas |
March 8, 2018 - 2:42pm | Or, perhaps Vrusk should just get a DEX check. I don't think they are that ungainly. Joe Cabadas |
