Shooting Under Water?

jedion357

December 4, 2012 - 4:18am

I'm curious, what would be the effects of shooting the various weapons of SF under water?

I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

OnceFarOff

December 4, 2012 - 3:17pm

I recently watched a mythbusters where they fired various caliber projectiles into the water. None of them made it past a foot or two, and the higher velocity rounds came apart almost immediately. So I can't speak to the beam weapons, but projectiles are more useless then a ham sandwich in Jerusalem.

Interesting thought: sonic weapons underwater...

TerlObar

December 4, 2012 - 4:00pm

Unless you have crystal clear water with little to no turbulence, lasers will diffuse quite rapidly and become useless as well.

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jedion357

December 4, 2012 - 5:25pm

Ok point blank for most beam and possibly a loss of 1d10 in power even at PB. Sonic is perhaps useful and dangerous to the wielder.

I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

rattraveller

December 4, 2012 - 6:27pm

What about gyrojet? If the rocket had its own oxygen supply then it could get the initial thrust and take off. The design could easily cut water and like sonic weapons the underwater concussion would do considerable damage even if the shrapnel was lessened.

Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

TerlObar

December 4, 2012 - 7:21pm

I'd reduce the ranges as the water would definitely slow it down but I'd say gyrojet weapons would work underwater.

Of course that assumes that any weapon in question you're trying to fire underwater has been designed to work wet. If there are components (e.g. electronics) that aren't desgined for it, it may not work at all.

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jedion357

December 4, 2012 - 8:33pm

I would say that optimization for underwater use might be something that takes place latter in the time line - that at the time the price of the weapon should have come down this new feature was added that caused the cost to stay the same.

I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Karxan

December 5, 2012 - 10:25pm

I have been looking into what suggestions are already out there about underwater equipment an such. Here is some info:

Aquatic Equipment

When going underwater, characters can take a variety of equipment modified to work in that environment.

Jet Fins. These work on the same principle as the scooter. Jet fins enable a character to move at a rate of 13 meters per turn without requiring rest breaks every hour. A pair of fins weigh .5 kilograms and cost 50 Credits They are powered by two small, rechargeable energy cells good for two hours of use.

Modified Weapons and Equipment

Modified weapons and equipment have a tendency to malfunction due to powerful pressure from deep dives, as do AGSs. Weapons and equipment must be further modified if taken into water containing powerful chemicals; this modification will cost a further 50 Credits.

For every tenth of a gravity less than one, weapons and equipment are able to dive 10 meters deeper before a chance for malfunction occurs. The opposite is true if the gravity is greater than one. This rule applies to the weapons and equipment, too.

Artificial Gill Suit (AGS). To survive underwater for long periods, characters must employ a breathing apparatus known as an artificial gill suit (AGS), which covers the wearer’s entire body. It is made of a material that is similar to that used in skeinsuits, and it may be left transparent or colored as the manufacturer desires. Normal goggles may be worn by Humans, Vrusk, and Yazirian divers. The AGS will absorb one-fourth of all damage caused by projectile and gyrojet weapons, fragmentation grenades, explosives, and melee weapons. It cannot be worn with any other suit of armor, but a screen may be used with it. When the AGS has taken 35 points of damage, it will be ruined and useless as armor.

The AGS for Humans, Yazirians, and Vrusks conforms to their basic physical shape The AGS for Dralasites will stretch to accomodate their shape-changing abilities. A Yazirian AGS covers the glide-wing membranes without hampering their use in swimming (see below).

Much of the exterior of the AGS is covered by a series of microfilters, all made of tough, translucent plastic. These microfilters draw oxygen from the water, pumping the gas mixture through small tubes to the area of the body where the wearer inhales air. The waste gases produced are released directly from the suit. The whole system is regulated by a computer chip and powered by a small energy cell good for five hours before it needs to be recharged.

The AGS also has a small digital display which can easily be seen by the wearer. The display shows the diver’s depth, time in the water, and the amount of power left in the suit’s energy cell. The suit also has a built-in low-frequency radio system, which has a range of one kilometer.

The AGS weighs five kilograms and costs 800 Credits. The suit can be safely used at a maximum depth of 110 meters on Earthlike planets. If a deeper dive is attempted, there is a cumulative 5% chance per 10 meters below the safe limit that the AGS will malfunction. This chance must be rolled for every five minutes, with an additional 1% chance of failure added for every additional five-minute period spent beyond the first.

If the characters dive in water with extremes in temperature, an AGS can be bought with a heating/cooling system. This modification costs 100 Credits extra and adds two kilograms of weight to the AGS. This system is powered by a small energy cell which works for four hours before needing a recharge. The system protects the character in water with temperatures ranging from -35—C to 70—C.

Special AGSs may be created if the characters are going to dive in waters which contain dangerous chemicals or poison. These AGS must be tailor-made for the body of water in which the characters are going to dive. Such suits cost and average of 1000 Credits.

If the AGS malfunctions, the character wearing it must hold his breath until he can reach the water’s surface.

AGS Wide-beam Underwater Flashlight. 50 Credits. The flashlight will be attached to the AGS, around the character’s chest. The flashlight’s energy cell can go for 100 hours before needing a recharge. The flashlight enables the character to always have a minimum visual range of two meters, except in extremely murky water. It illuminates a cone-shaped area, ranging from .5-2 meters at the widest part of the cone.

Handheld Wide-beam Underwater Flashlight. which works like the one attached to the AGS, can be bought for 10 Credits.

Standard Sea Survival Pack. The contents of such a pack are: one all-weather blanket, one first-aid pack, four survival rations (eight days of food), one compass, 10 salt pills, 10 liters of water, one flashlight, one pair of sea goggles, and an emergency beeper that emits a signal for 20 km for 48 hours. Some packs may include a small firearm.

Waterproofed Compass can be found for 20 Credits.

Underwater Toxyrad Gauge. 25 Credits; its functions are slightly different from the regular type, and it will not work above water. If the red light shines, it means that there is a chemical in the area that can affect the character through his AGS, but the special filters mentioned earlier can filter them out before they reach the character. A flashing blue light indicates that there is dangerous radiation nearby. A flashing yellow light indicates that there is a chemical in the area that is so powerful that even the special filters mentioned above can not filter them out.

Underwater Exoskeleton. 2500 Credits. This version of the exoskeleton also works above water. While wearing the exoskeleton, a character is able to swim 20 meters per turn without having to rest. While underwater, the character has a +10 bonus to hit in melee, and does five additional points of damage. The exoskeleton is designed to be worn outside the AGS without hampering any of the suit’s functions. Because of the heat-absorbing properties of water, an AGS cannot have built-in infrared vision capability. Freeze fields cannot work underwater, either.

Underwater Radiophone. 550 Credits. Works under or above water. It only has a range of 50 kilometers underwater, and is connected to the communications system of the user’s AGS.

Underwater Solva-Way. Comes in small plastic bulbs which must be crushed by the entangled victim. It then spreads out and dissolve the threads, remaining potent for one turn. A bulb of underwater SolvaWay costs 15 Credits, and it will not work above water.

Variable/Timer Detonators. Regular Tornadium D-19 works underwater, but special waterproofed Variable/Timer Detonators must be used. They cost 7 Credits each and work above water, too.

Underwater Power Backpacks (300 Credits)

Underwater Powerclips (150 Credits)

(source- Star Frontiers: 25th Anniversary Edtion Rulebook)

I forgot who I got this from.

Karxan

December 5, 2012 - 10:28pm

Another source I found was this: This is from Dragon Mag #110,

Underwater combatWhile underwater, characters will have to deal with various modifications to the combat system. The Ranged Weapon Combat Procedure Table, on page 22 of the Expanded Game Rules book, should have the following additions and modifications when combat occurs underwater.

Swimming target	-5
Dodging target	-8
Dodging Yazirian target	-10
Target using jet fins	-3
Target riding jet scooter	-6
Attacker using jet fins	-2
Attacker riding jet scooter	-5

Sighting distance is also modified while underwater. The AGS is designed to enhance the wearer’s vision so that it is not distorted, even so; a character’s vision will not be as good as when on the surface. Visual range can also be affected by the amount of sediment and plankton in the area, the amount of light shining on the surface of the water, the depth, and passing schools of fish or other life forms. It can be assumed that within 10 meters of the surface, a character will have a maximum visual range of 40 meters, if the view is not obstructed and if it is daylight. If it is at night, the character will only be able to see one meter away at best. The referee should use this as a basic foundation when trying to decide a character’s visual range underwater. The final visual range is left up to the referee. For 50 Credits, a wide-beam underwater flashlight can be found. The flashlight will be attached to the AGS, around the character’s chest. The flashlight’s energy cell can go for 100 hours before needing a recharge. The flashlight enables the character to always have a minimum visual range of two meters, except in extremely murky water. It illuminates a cone-shaped area, ranging from .5-2 meters at the widest part of the cone. When fighting underwater, characters must use modified versions of the ranged weapons they usually use. These weapons cost 50 Credits extra for underwater modification. Such weapons act normally above water unless otherwise noted. Laser weapons are not used underwater, as they are too inefficient. Underwater versions of gyrojet weapons are available. When used underwater, they have the following alterations made in ranges (the rest of the statistics are normal when used underwater).

Weapon	PB	Short	Med.	Long	Extr.
Gyrojet pistol	-	0-3	4 - 30	31 - 60	61 - 9 0
Gyrojet rifle	-	0-3	4 - 50	51 - 90	91 - 130

Sonic disruptors and sonic stunners are both produced in versions that can be used underwater. These weapons have double normal ranges undersea, because of the effects of the denser medium through which the sound waves pass. The damage for the sonic disruptors is doubled accordingly. Modified versions of grenades can be used underwater. They can’t actually be thrown, but they may be dropped on characters that are at a greater depth than the attacker. Unless surprised, the victim may be able to get out of the grenade’s blast radius. The grenades will drop at a rate of six meters per turn. Grenades can also be delivered with grenade rifles modified to work underwater. Such weapons have the following ranges when used underwater:

Point Blank	Nil
Short	0-15
Medium	16-30
Long	31-55
Extreme	56-100

Underwater grenades will not work in air, but the grenade rifle can fire the regular type of grenades when used on land. Underwater versions of the poison grenade and the doze grenade can be found, but they only have a blast radius of one meter. They release a colorless liquid into the water, which enters the microfilters of an AGS and then affect the wearer as per normal. For 50 Credits, special filters can be attached to an AGS which will keep poisons from getting to its wearer. Underwater versions of tangler grenades and smoke grenades can also be found. They work like the regular ones, but they only have a one-meter blast radius, the smoke cloud produced by the smoke grenade has only a 15-meter blast radius, clouding the water, and it could be broken up by underwater currents. The underwater version of the fragmentation grenade works just like the regular version, except that it only has a three meter blast radius. Finally, underwater characters may make use of a new projectile weapon: the spear gun, which uses compressed air to shoot a heavy arrow. A compressed-air clip can fire four arrows before becoming empty. The spear can be fitted with a special head that explodes upon impact like a grenade. A regular spear does 1d10 damage, while a spear with an exploring head does 2d10 damage. The spear gun has the following ranges:

Point Blank	0-5
Short	6-10
Medium	11-20
Long	21-30
Extreme	31-40

A cost and weight table follows:

Device	Cost (Cr.)	Weight(Kg)
Spear gun	100	4
Spear/arrow	5	1 (for 5 spears)
Compressed air clip	10	1 (for 3 clips)
Exploding warhead	30	1 (for 3 spears with heads

Melee combat is also greatly affected while underwater. Characters cause no damage with punches, and a character’s punching score should not be added to the damage caused by non-powered weapons while underwater. Only sharp melee weapons are useful underwater: short axes, knives, stabbing polearms (spears), sonic knives, sonic swords, short stabbing swords, and vibro-knives. A person using a sonic weapon underwater will not be able to surprise an opponent. The damage done by these weapons is reduced by half because of the friction of the water. These modified versions of melee weapons cost30 Credits extra and function normally above water. Electrical weapons are not produced for underwater use because water is such a good conductor for electricity.Modified power screens that work above and below water cost 100 Credits extra for the water-proofing. Final notes: Any combat which draws blood might also draw any nearby predators in the area (like sharks or beings with similar temperaments and appetites).While refereeing underwater combat, a referee should take into account the different altitudes of the combatants; those attacking from above gain a +5 bonus. A referee might wish to use the rules for weightless combat (page 26 of the Expanded Game Rules book) when conducting underwater combat, if high-recoil weapons are used without bracing. Underwater equipmentWhen going underwater, characters can take a variety of equipment modified to work in that environment. A waterproofed compass can be found for 20 credits. A special underwater flashlight, which works like the one attached to the AGS, can be bought for 10 Credits. An underwater version of the toxyrad gauge costs 25 Credits; its functions are slightly different from the regular type, and it will not work above water. If the red light shines, it means that there is a chemical in the area that can affect the character through his AGS, but the special filters mentioned earlier can filter them out before they reach the character. A flashing blue light indicates that there is dangerous radiation nearby. A flashing yellow light indicates that there is a chemical in the area that is so powerful that even the special filters mentioned above cannot filter them out. An underwater version of the exoskeleton can be found for 2500 Credits; this version also works above water. While wearing the exoskeleton, a character is able to swim 20 meters per turn without having to rest. While underwater, the character has a +10 bonus to hit in melee, and does five additional points of damage.The exoskeleton is designed to be worn outside the AGS without hampering any of the suit’s functions. Because of the heat-absorbing properties of water, an AGS cannot have built-in infrared vision capability. Freeze fields cannot work underwater, either. An underwater radiophone can be bought for 550 credits, and will work regularly above water. It only has a range of 50 kilometers underwater, and is connected to the communications system of the user’s AGS. Underwater Solva-Way comes in small plastic bulbs which must be crushed by the entangled victim. It then spreads out and dissolve the threads, remaining potent for one turn. A bulb of underwater Solva-Way costs 15 Credits, and it will not work above water. Regular Tornadium D-19 works underwater, but special waterproofed Variable/Timer Detonators must be used. They cost 7 Credits each and work above water, too. Finally, special power backpacks (300 Credits) and powerclips (150 Credits) can be bought that work underwater.

The modified weapons and equipment mentioned earlier have a tendency to malfunction due to powerful pressure from deep dives, as do AGS’s. Weapons and equipment must be further modified if taken into water containing powerful chemicals; this modification will cost a further 50 Credits.

Karxan

December 5, 2012 - 10:53pm

Also, In the fan created Gamma World module GW-5 Rapture of the Deep, it has a lot of equipment for the game and underwater rules. They have a Blue/Green laser that is designed to work underwater. Really though, as TerlObar stated, laser are practicaly useless underwater.

Thought these items would help with the discussion.

I have been working on trying to gather information for an article or maybe an adventure around water. One thing not mentioned so far as I have seen are underwater robots. I was thinking the sathar with all of their cyber creatures might have some type of underwater cybo-fish thing going on somewhere. Maybe The sathar version of the "White Whale".

jedion357

December 6, 2012 - 8:04am

I think those combat modifiers are in column shift mechanic and we probably should convert thet to d100.

I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Cedric

January 9, 2013 - 10:13pm

There was a game years ago called Justifiers. One of the undersea sourcebooks recommended magnetic weapons because they fired dart-like flechettes instead of conical bullets. And I remember throwing those torpedo-shaped pool toys and just how far and straight they'd go with just a little push.

It makes me think needler weapons might be somewhat effective underwater. Maybe half the range and probably damage penalties at "new" long range because of the pattern dispersal.

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