 November 12, 2012 - 6:24am | So from Schick it seems that the skill system is A, B skills not PSA that some skills are simple to learn and some require more in the way of pre-reqs and EXP Also the original looked more like the Zebs skill system but that it was simply the sub skills of the AD system so here is my initial thoughts in an area like medical diagnosis and first aid are A skills and most other of the medical sub skills are B skills that require one or both of the B skills. robotics identification would be an A skill and possibly deactivate/activate Computers: list information should be an A skill. the AD environmental skill will benefit from being broken up in this fashion as well. almost all of the AD combat skills should probably be A skills and the KHs star ship gunnery skills could be B skills. Note: we might as well account for the star ships skills in the skill system from the ground up- this probably is not what was in the original Alien Worlds but I think it would be best to do so. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 12, 2012 - 6:34am | A new wrinkle I had while thinking about this skill system this morning was that B skills will obviously cost more but what if you got a EXp discount based on the number of levels of medical skills you had so say your character had been learning all of the medical skills because your character concept is that of a doctor and you are looking to lean a higher level of surgery skill? you would totall up all of the medical skill levels your character has and this becomes the EXP discount for learning a high level B skill. What it does is simulates the effects of the PSA system as this character has focused on medical stuff so medical stuff becomes easy for him to progress in. It allows for a Dr to also have a passion for shooting and players can develop their character in any direction but focusing on a particular direction will have a pay off. naturally the In/ OUT of PSA experience costs of the AD system are probably what we are talking about for this as you dont want a situation where a character could get a high level skill for free or that there should be a minimum cost for the skill. another benefit will be that a Dr. character will not be making considerations of taking environmental or Psych-social skill because its "In PSA" and thus the skill costs are less. Instead he might be focusing on robotics because he wants to be able to install bionics or cybernetics. Anyway that is what I have so far NOTE: the Zebs skill system and the SF2000 skill systems really became unwieldly IMO and the skills became to fragmented. We might consider some condensing like control infection and cure disease could be condensed to one skill- infectious diseases, neutralize toxins could be expanded a little to be Bio chemistry and be the skill that you would use to develop a bio-cort for a new alien species the group has encountered etc. The point being that we would do well to avoid the skill fragmentation of those systems. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 November 12, 2012 - 8:13am | I like the idea of going a non psa route. Something with the flexibility required for a player to be able to develop the character concept they like would be a plus. In my SF campaign, I allow PCs a PSA and 2 SSA just to overcome the clunkiness of the system. For starters: Perhaps having a more skill derived base percentage chance for a skill, penalties for being unskilled. I would think that a medical skill or technical skill should have a more stiff penalty than military. I imagine shooting an unfamiliar gun is less difficult than dismantling a robot or performing open heard surgery. Perhaps a standardized spectrum of difficulties? (-10% simple, -20% average, -30% difficult, etc.) An interesting concept that the FATE and FUDGE systems use is what they refer to as the skill ladder. Using a number system for example, for every lvl 2 skill you must have at least one more level one skill. So: 2 skills at level 1, 1 skill at level 2. For every level 3 skill you need to have one more level 2 skill (which also requires more level 1 skill). SO: 1 lvl 3 - 2 lvl 2 - 3 lvl 1, etc. The concept behind the mechanism is to prevent power gaming where 1 skill is maxed out cheap and there is no character depth. Just a thought there Another thought is to have a general category (Traveller has jack of all trades) for each major area. Perhaps a general "Military" or "Science" skill, which allows some sort of bonus or at least lack of penalty to related skills, but can be done without as well. I think of a person who completed a military academy. They receive general training on a variety of weapons systems, perhaps enough to eliminate an unskilled penalty, but not enough to give a bonus for expertise. In boot camp I learned how to set a claymore mine, but I am not an expert in demolitions... A last thought, really a plea: I question the mechanic of forcing individual weapons skills to be requisite for understanding and using ship weapon systems. I use the skilled frontier mechanic in my game because I have a fundamental disagreement with both the realism and practicality of using the KH style mechanic. If a person sits at a console and pushes a button when a crosshair appears on an icon on the screen, I never have understood how that translates to being able to clear a jam on a projectile weapon on a dirty battlefield. Or to BREATHE-RELAX-AIM-SQUEEZE when a quickdeath is charging at you. And vice versa. And if apple has taught us anything, it's that a person can use a computer/tablet/iphone without knowing how computers work. So how does a pilot need to be a code programmer in order to use the GUI at the pilot console? I've just never thought it was a good system. AND it makes the acquisition of skills arbitrarily difficult=player frustration. |
November 12, 2012 - 8:51am | I'm cool with a station type weapon skill like what youdto find on a ship or perhaps an armored vehicle where you just sit at the station and fired a weapon that you are in no way looking down the sights and have this as a A skill i would also consider just having a pistol shooting skill and rifle shooting skill a A skills with the individual weapons skills being intensive training (Bno skill) in that style of weapon allowing for feild stripping of a wapon, repair, and perhaps some feat like things sniper shot for increased damage or aimed shots at a higher rate of fire than 1. Demolitions is probably a B skill too. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 November 26, 2012 - 4:45pm | From what I gathered from the Dave Cook and Lawrence Schick interviews is that skills were just skills made up of the subskills treated as individual skills, loosely applied in whatever fell under what could reasonably be expected to be covered by the skill. As mentioned above, they are A for simple, B for complex. The skills all relied upon a "unified percentage" rather than each with a fixed percentage, but were not connected with abilities; what that "unified percentage" was is unknown. Of note is that they wanted the skills system and other mechanics to be easy, quick and loose, with essentially no peripheral or hidden mechanics. (What you see is what you get. There were NO prerequisites.) View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 November 26, 2012 - 5:40pm | The real question is: What are the skills, and what is the percentage? A/B classifications are easy to figure out - many systems have "untrained" and "trained" skills that works on the same level. Knowing what skills they where going would be nice. Hell, it might allow for more options then the default AD/KH rules! I understand the static percentage, as it would not have the sub-skills, but what is the score? For all we know, it could be based on attribute scores, much like shooting. Another thing to consider is how racial abilities work. What if the Dralasite's Detect Lies actually means +5% to Logic/Intuition, when figuring out someone is lying,instead of just 5% to do it - the normal rules just makes no sense to me. |
November 27, 2012 - 6:49am | A & B suggests different costs. If it were as simple as trained and untrained, they would simply use the distinctive terminology. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
November 27, 2012 - 8:48am | A & B suggests different costs. If it were as simple as trained and untrained, they would simply use the distinctive terminology. I think it also went int prerequs that first aid was required before advanced surgery and etc. I think it would have been flexible enough to allow for character concepts like a combat medic or a scientist form the Center for disease control who is in essence a Dr. but not a surgeon but rather someone that specialized in curing disease and infections.One thing I saw play out one time was that every player in a AD style game started to take 1 level of medic skill on the premise that it allowed everyone to heal themselves with first aid but the skill is set up such that it maked every character with it a doctor/surgeon which makes it seem odd that you'd have a group of medical doctors walking around, armed to the teeth blasting things away. Musings on just medical skill: I like a cheap first aid skill that is pretty much limited to just the first aid subskill of the AD system. or I would also like a nursing skill that allows for treatment of wounds, administration of drugs, and even though in the real world nurses are not allow to diagnos because its the provence of the Dr. in reality they aren't half bad at diagnosing common aliments. Nurses I worked with could readily diagnos problems from their experience but were very careful about how they presented their knowledge so that the doctor would make the diagnosis but they would make sure the particular information made it to the doctor- so reduced chance of diagnosis for nursing sill. I would also think that a higher level nurse running/managing a ward or field hospital would be able to make a skill roll and because of their good management all the patients in the ward have their natural healing rate increased for that week. I suppose that a general medical skill could be used as a A skill for a doctor- pretty much making him a general practioner and that their would be 2 advanced B skills Surgering and Infectious Diesease General Practioner A skill would involve- diagnosis, administration of drugs, first aid, minor surgery, Surgery B skill would be all of the surgery subskills and required for installing bionica and cybernetics Infectious Disease B skill would be the neutralize poison (might as well include it here for simplicity), cure disease and control infections. EDIT: on further thought- Clearly the Environmental skill is an amalgam of the A/B skills- make tools and find direction stealth and concealment could easily be an A skill called survival skills and the science stuff was probably a B skill. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 27, 2012 - 3:46pm | A & B suggests different costs. If it were as simple as trained and untrained, they would simply use the distinctive terminology. I meant "Simple" and "Complex". I see a lot of systems where you have something that is easy to learn, and can be preformed by an unskilled person with a good degree of failure. While there are skills that are harder to learn, and requires training to do at all. Paramedic would be an examlpe of a "simple" skill, while Physician would a "complex" skill. |
November 27, 2012 - 4:45pm | I get that. But my statement still applies. "A" & "B" suggests a cost difference. Using full terminology just means "yes" or "no". If there were no cost difference, identifying one as "A" and the other as "B" would be meaningless. Instead, you would just say something is or isn't one thing or another. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
November 27, 2012 - 4:50pm | Jedion, I see where you're coming from, but first aid is not really a "medical" skill. That is, you don't have to be in the medical field to know it, and is in no way a stepping stone to surgery. I can see nursing (Wounds I) as a stepping stone to surgery, but not first aid as such. First aid is counted as an automatic skill in the skills list, and I think that means that it is not rated on the same level as other skills. In fact, I would count it as a non-skill that is a part of adventuring. Anyone who adventures knows how to perform first aid. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
November 27, 2012 - 5:34pm | You'd be surprised how many people just dont know basic first aid or how many people make a medical judgement based on an old wives tale and you cant tell them anything different. If everyone in game could do first aid by default then everyone could patch themselves up a little after a shoot out. I'm not sure thats a good idea. But parties that do a lot of fighting would benefit from multiple character able to do a little first aid. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 28, 2012 - 5:34am | Suggesting an A list of skills All Shooting (includes "station shooting skill" or rather sitting at a station to fire a weapon you are not neccessarily looking down its sights whether in a vehicle [tank] or on a star ship no prereqs) thrown melee weapons Operate computers/display information (2 separate subskills in AD but perhaps best merged as the sames skill here) Robotics: Identification Driving ground vehicles (includes hover cars and most heavy equipment but heavy equipment requires a skill check to first operate or the character is baffled by the extra levers and controls failure of a skill check and baffle result requires spending time playing with it to figure it out. Note this skill does not include the technician's ability to hot wire) Survival skills (includes tool making) Tracking Stealth/ Concealment (I realize these are really separate disciplines but they are close enough to merge for simplicity) First Aid (but as 1d5 but should probably include the ability to use hypo spray requiring a skill roll for a full up doctor the hypospray is always automatic) Suggested B Skills Demolitions Martial Arts (I'd say for this one we include a list of feats like the nerve combat, tumbling and defensive throws that are currently in the AD skill but add a few others and you either get a new feat at each level or you get 3 at level 1 and a new one at levels 2,4, &6) Computer programing- subsumes the operate computers skill and includes writing programs and manipulating programs Computer Security or hacking if you will (bypass and defeaft security and interface computers requires computer programing) Robotics programing- includes activate/deactivate, Identification, security locks, functions and missions but not repair or add equipment Electrician- wiring (detecting alarms and defenses, deactivating them and locks though mechanical locks probably belong in mechanic skill) mechanic skill- includes mechanical repairs or modifications to robots, vehciles and or other machinery lets face an auto mechanic could look at the busted treads on a robot and fix them them as its a straight up mechanical repair Piloting- aircraft - I like how the skill in AD required higher levels for more complicated craft so I'd suggest lvl 1- jetcopters and fixed wing air craft, lvl air cars and anything else- jet fighters, sub-orbital transports etc, level 3 space vehicles that are not star ships proper but say drop ships and other re-entry craft. Piloting- Star ships Environmentalist skill- analyze sample, should include synthesize compound, analyze ecosystems problem here is that without the survival, tracking, stealth and concealments who will take this skill? I think it needs some dressing up a bit Nursing- includes first aid but at 1d10, administer drugs 100%, activate freeze field and other other medical equipment- likely at this time that autodocs are so well programmed that a nurse could use one. Surgery- all the surgery skills Bio chemistry- cure diseases, neutralize toxins, and control infections Psycho-social skill leave it as it is in AD its another red headed step child of the skill list Astronavigation all for shortening the time to plot interstellar jumps Star ship engineering - allows for ship design, stress analysis, and Dam con but there is no reason a civilian ship like a freighter couldn't get by with a character that has electical and mechanical skills to fix and repair most equipment on board, however problems with a star ship engine will take a star ship engineer. So that is my proposed list just based on the AD list a few questions: 1. anything we should add 2. anything we should subtract RE something malcadon said: I'd be in favor of some basic suit of skills/abilities anyone can do unskilled drive a ground vehicle (only with a key and penalties for combat driving), shoot a gun, basic first aid (1d5), operate a computer (lets face it in a technical society most people can turn on a computer and move a mouse)- all these things function as 1/2 the ability score with no -20 penalty for being unskilled. I've been thinking that most people can change a tire, fan belt or coolant hose so I think I'd allow for a repair roll for a minor repair or that does a very limited ammount of structural repair. I've not given a thought to EXP coxts but obviously A is cheaper than B But for character generation I would say you choose two B skills and can swap a B skill for 2 A skills Looking at that from a practical POV military characters will excel since most of their stuff is the cheap skills but I dont see that that situation can be helped. EDIT: not sure I'm happy with the proposed nursing skill and may want to just make it a general medicine skill. or there is a general medicine skill and at level 2, 4, & 6 you add a specialty- surgery, bio-chemistry, xeno-medicine, etc [we can create a list]. Perhaps first aid is an automatic 0 skill as has been discussed, nursing is a A skill and the B skill is the Medical skill with diagnosis, admin drugs, first aid, minor surgery, and operate med equipment. latter a character adds surgery (major surgery and the ability to implant devices, remove face huggers, amputate limbs etc), bio chemistry, xeno medicine, genetics, etc Also on environmentalist skill should add some langauge that suggests forensics since CSI has been some popular a franchise of TV series. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 28, 2012 - 7:13am | Minor Surgery and Major Surgery seems fine to me as far as medical skills. Nurses and general practitioners can perform Minor Surgery and surgical doctors perform Major Surgery. You could also broaden them to be "Medical Treatment I" and "Medical Treatment II", allowing you to include medicines and non-surgical procedures as well as surgery. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 November 30, 2012 - 11:18pm | Advanced Driving is neglected, Basic Driving might as well include any single pilot craft under the same premise as Heavy Equipment, after all many control systerms could be as simplistic as reading a display and operating a computer when basic transportation is all that is required... otoh, Advanced Driving courses and certification examinations can be just as rigorous and scholorly as any piloting school, for air or water. I am thinking advanced (B Skill) piloting should be for combat and avoidance techniques, dangerous navigation in hostile terrain, regaining or maintaining control, and proper knowlege about calculating vehicle safty and stress given current mission loads and environmental information. Basic skills should be just that, minimal ability for common usage. A Skill Basic Transportation - operate any craft between locations using pre-navigated lanes. -or- Better still to make broad sweeping vehicle types for the basic A Skills to cover. Surface Navigation - operate any surface craft in simple manuvers, leave garage, locate destination, parallel park. Aquatic Navigation - operate any aquatic based craft in simple manuvers, cast-off, locate landing, enter port. Air Navigation - operate any air based craft in simple manuvers, take-off, locate destination, touch-down. Intrastellar Navigation - operate any intrasystem craft in simple manuvers, take-off, locate orbit, match-lock. Transstellar Navigation - operate any transstellar craft in simple manuvers, ascend G-well, transit nav-lane, descend G-well. Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
