 July 4, 2012 - 8:10am | Hey everyone- I'm wondering what kind of vessel would most entities (corporations) use to haul bulk cargo from the surface of a planet into orbit? Anyone ever seen a write up or deck plan for a vessel like that? I guess it would have to be a HS 4 or 5 system ship streamlined for atmospheric travel, etc. I'm having a hard time getting my mind around how something like that would be economical though considering the mass of things involved. |
 July 4, 2012 - 4:38pm | In the real world the most economical method of getting cargo to orbit is a big rocket space pickup trucks known as spqce shuttles have proven way to expensive, unable to carry enough cargo as opposed to big rockets. In game? Atomic engines might be a game changer and you'd certainly want the biggest hull possible that can lift with atomics though there is some confussion in the books as to what hull that is something about HS 5 being the largest hull possible to blast out of a gravity well and then someing else about it being illegal to use atomics for lift off from a planet by anything larger then HS 3. Shadow Shack will be the one to sound off on this issue. I'm also sure we can imagine that on various planets various cost saving strategies were tried out like space elevators and rail launch systems. Sure the speed used by rail launch systems proposed for attaining orbit would squash a human riding in the capsule to paste but no reason non living freight cant be launched that way, well maybe not delicate objects but certainly unrefined resource material. Then again stasis field tech and inertia screens imply the possibility of inertia dampners so why not fragile cargo? One of the more interesting proposed commercial reusable surface to orbit proposed systems is the rotan rocket- takes off like a multi stage rocket but re-entry is obtained by helicopter blades that come out from the sides of the rocket and lock into place and slow the crafts descent via auto-rotation. Pilot must be helicopter qualified but in theory the capsule would be able to land on a dime. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 July 4, 2012 - 1:31pm | Using standard rules (with their issues), a HS 4 shuttle with chemical rockets is probably the cheapest method to get the most material into orbit. It only needs 1 chemical rocket and takes 2000 cr of fuel per trip to ferry 4 cargo units up and back (1000cr each way). Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 July 4, 2012 - 2:52pm | On advanced planets of the frontier you could always go with the old Sci-Fi standby of space elevators. Rising magestically up into the heavens hauling passengers and cargo up and down in vast quantities. Although the trip takes 3 to 4 times longer than the "shuttles" it has a proven safety record 1057 times better than the "flyboys". Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 July 4, 2012 - 7:34pm | The rules note a HS limit to what can leave a planet, without any adjustment. In truth, a planet's gravity would be a major factor towards that limit. The mass-to-burn ratio with chemical drives would limit the ship to low HS. In most cases, multi-stage booster rockets would be attached to the ship, to get it into orbit. This would be a better option then standalone rocket ships, as they can mount an ion-powered or a chemical-powered space craft, and another craft can re-use the boosters (once recovered). Standalone rocket-ships would likely have only enough fuel to get into orbit, a Lagrange point, or to the orbit of a local moon (if any). Once there, they require re-fueling at a station. Fusion Drive on the other hand, can leave the atmosphere by using atomic bursts like a chemical burn, but way more potent. The upper limit of a ship's HS would be higher then ships with chemical drives - not so much to mass-to-burn ratio, but how a ship's superstructure can deal with gravitational stress, as well as grater diameter-to-height ratio (being more balanced and with greater thrust area). In real life, NASA had plans to send a 4,000 ton craft to Mars by the mid or late '60s by atomic thrust, but the project was cancelled in '63 do to concerns over the output of radiative exhaust and a Cold War political treaty. The bursts are micro nuclear explosions on rapid-fire, and might not have a major environmental impact (a drop in the bucket, compared to all the weapon testing from that era). The funny thing is that NASA did all the math, and it was a feat that we could have accomplished successfully!  |
 July 5, 2012 - 3:48pm | You could always assist launch shuttles into orbit with magnetic rail launcher, basically a large rail cannon that throws a ship into the sky. That would certainly help get the HS 5 ships with chemical drives into orbit faster. If the space shuttle is roughly the size of a HS 3 ship, then think of a HS 5 being a little larger than a 747 jet. If we can get something that big into the sky, anything smaller would be easy. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
July 5, 2012 - 6:41pm | You could always assist launch shuttles into orbit with magnetic rail launcher, basically a large rail cannon that throws a ship into the sky. That would certainly help get the HS 5 ships with chemical drives into orbit faster. If the space shuttle is roughly the size of a HS 3 ship, then think of a HS 5 being a little larger than a 747 jet. If we can get something that big into the sky, anything smaller would be easy. I've been thinking about that and it occured to me that such a catapult system might be built on the side of a mountain. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 July 6, 2012 - 12:52am | If the space shuttle is roughly the size of a HS 3 ship, then think of a HS 5 being a little larger than a 747 jet.
Except at 33 meters in length (37 if you include the top edge of the tail fin), the shuttle comes in at HS:2 At 68m in length (again not counting the top edge of the tail fin), the 747 just squeaks into the -25% variance rule for HS:4 HS:5 would be the length of a football field minus one end zone --- meaning from one goal line to the opposite goal post. The largest aircraft in the world --- the Anatov AN-225 (Russian military cargo jet) --- falls shy of that by 12 meters but again citing the +/-25% variation rule it makes it to HS:5...and that thing is aych-yoo-gee-ee H-U-G-E !!! If you saw the Hollywood flick "2012" the big CG plane in that flick was supposed to be the AN-225. The Russians routinely fly one in to Vegas every few years at McCarran International Airport (the runways at Nellis AFB are quite simply too short for it, despite being able to accomodate B-52 bombers and C-5 Galaxies) and once offloaded they allow tourists/residents to check it out for a few days, it's simply amazing how that huge pig can get off the ground. |
 July 14, 2012 - 7:45pm | I would use a hybrid type plane/ship. Like the Rockwell X-30 its was supposed to use standard jets and then ramjets, scramjets to get into the upper atmosphere and then it would employ rockets to get into low orbit. Using a regular airport runway like Washinton Dulles it could go to Tokyo or Low Earth otbit in 2 hours. The Project was cancelled in the early 1990s but there is no reason to waste rocket fuel in Star Frontiers, this would be cheaper than space shuttles and or giant rocket boosters. There is no reason that in Star Frontiers they could not be built even larger.... say up to HS 5. This was meant to be the replacement for the Space Shuttles. There were technological problems with power to wieght and heat shielding, but Star frontiers technology should easily overcome these issues. The bombing starts in five minutes. |
July 16, 2012 - 10:30am | You guys could always forgo aerospace craft, and have space-elevators/sky-hooks send things back and forth. You guys should read-up on it, its really neat! |
July 20, 2012 - 9:02pm | I think an orbital elevator would only be available on high tech long time established worlds. Some backwater planets aren't going to have them for various cost reasons. Then you'd have to think of how large of a station at the top would be? And could a HS 20 ship dock with it? How would you get a station to rotate for gravity and still be connected to a space elevator and still allow ships to dock with it? I think I can see it as the station would look like a wheel with the elevator connected to it at a stationary axis. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
July 21, 2012 - 10:54am | I guess my thought on the whole thing was based on the logistics and economics of moving manufactured goods into orbit. If the cheapest manner of lifting cargo from a manufacturing center on the surface into space to distribute for transport is in the vicinity of 4,000 cr for a HS 5 chemical drive cargo shuttle to lift 5 cu into orbit, that would really affect prices... Perhaps I am overthinking things, though. Perhaps I need to take a 'suspension of physics' approach and just say that it happens, as it appears the game designers did just that. |
July 21, 2012 - 5:20pm | A little of topic but what would happen if a space elevator came down? I dont guess you would want to live close to one if this was a real possibility. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
July 21, 2012 - 6:31pm | I think an orbital elevator would only be available on high tech long time established worlds. Some backwater planets aren't going to have them for various cost reasons. Then you'd have to think of how large of a station at the top would be? And could a HS 20 ship dock with it? How would you get a station to rotate for gravity and still be connected to a space elevator and still allow ships to dock with it? I think I can see it as the station would look like a wheel with the elevator connected to it at a stationary axis. Actually, the station at the end of the tether can have gravity, if the tether is long enough (36,000 km or so would do). By going up planet-side, gravity gets lower until it reach the point of 0-gee, then gravity starts to pull away from the planet, so that "up" is towards the planet. Its works on the same principle as the hammer throw, at the Olympics. Plus, You dont need to dock a large spaceship at the anchored station, when you could use the larger stations (with their neutral-gravity centers) at fixed orbits - just go between them by shuttle craft. Here are some links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyhook_%28structure%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_fountain |
July 21, 2012 - 6:54pm | A little of topic but what would happen if a space elevator came down? I dont guess you would want to live close to one if this was a real possibility. That scenario happened in Gundam 00, and it was just raining debris and elevator cars fulled with people falling to their doom! That mess spread all-over the African landscape! Although the base of the elevator - a densely-populated port city - was protected by teams of (opposing, but partnering-up) super-powered mecha, shooting-up the debris in any way they can. In any other sci-fi, the debris would rain-down death unopposed! |
 July 25, 2012 - 1:22am | I can't remember the authors name, but the books, Red, Blue and Green Mars, in one of them the mars space elevator comes crashing down and basically puts a ring of destruction around mars. It was a radical change to the landscape not to forget all of the people that were in the elevator or in the crash site. I don't recall all of the damage but you could expect a large debris cloud also. If you were looking for a world wide type of disaster this would be a good technological one. |
July 25, 2012 - 2:50am | I can't remember the authors name, but the books, Red, Blue and Green Mars, in one of them the mars space elevator comes crashing down and basically puts a ring of destruction around mars. It was a radical change to the landscape not to forget all of the people that were in the elevator or in the crash site. I don't recall all of the damage but you could expect a large debris cloud also. If you were looking for a world wide type of disaster this would be a good technological one. Kim Stanley Robinson, I picked up one of the series in hardcover at a library sale but never read it because it was not the first! Have to look for it as maybe its the one with this event. How cool. Going to have to look into that and you're right that would make for an interesting disaster. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
