 November 1, 2011 - 2:21pm | It seems to me that this idea of a "balanced" party seems a bit forced. (I don't buy it.) Imagine, if you can, a bunch of different adventuring parties moving from adventure to adventure in the Frontier. All of them are made up of a "balanced" party made up of the 4 races having skills fulfilling a milatarist, an explorer, a tech and a medic. That's pretty darn homogenistic. Now, imagine, if you can, whole groups of Yazirians, whole groups of Dralasites and so forth, moving from adventure to adventure in the Frontier, some perhaps having the random Vrusk or human tossed in the mix, made up primarily of soldiers, or primarily of scientists, who get tossed into an adventure and have to survive with the skills they have and improvise solutions because of the skills they lack. To me, that would be a much more exciting adventure and allow for greater variety and greater adventure. How would you design an adventure to permit such lack of variety within the party? Most adventures are designed to give some attention to each field of study (PSA/Skill), some even requiring that the field of study be present in order to get past a certain point. What can be done to get around such pitfalls and how would you design an adventure that gives challenges for each field of study, while at the same time allowing room for a party without that field of study to succeed? What do you think? View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 November 1, 2011 - 3:28pm | This is probably harder in a precanned adventure as opposed to one you are developing yourself. But even in prebuilt adventure you can make it work. Mainly you just have to be willing to allow for improvised or alternate solutions to cover the missing skills. Maybe it will be harder, or maybe the players will come up with something totally unexpected (stampeeding the rollers through the fence of Outpost 1 on Volturnus for example  to knock down the fence and draw the pirates out).If you're building the adventure, build in multiple paths to the goal that use different sets of skills to reach the same point. Then it doesn't really matter what the party composition is, there will be a way to use their skills to reach the goal. The above assumes that you have the adventure planned out before the party is created. If you are a "Just in Time" referee (and really, unless you're using a published module, who of us aren't) then you may have broad ideas of how the PC's will get there but you can tailor the details to the actual party composition. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 November 1, 2011 - 4:44pm | A party of four shooters can go far if the GM is tolerant of "if it moves shoot it" solutions but could hang up on a tech problem where there is no apparent path forward by shooting. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 November 1, 2011 - 6:06pm | The easy answer (not the best) is the use of NPCs. One fix I recall is a free bonus skill as a gift to pc's to make sure all required skills are present. Another possibility is allowing the PCs to have a support nexus. Take NCIS for instance. (I just happen to be watching it at the moment.) In their team you have 2 and a half shooter-types and one computer specialist. For other science and lab needs they have Abby in the basement. Characters could possibly be able to contact an off-screen support npc. They could transmit data to their contact and get information return. Of course, it may be difficult to have a security door hacked via a com link. |
November 1, 2011 - 6:43pm | Game masters could also adjust the challenge in an adventure to match the skills and abilities in the party. Adding an NPC should only be a character that plugs a skill hole but doesn't out shine the PC's. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 November 2, 2011 - 2:59pm | Generally in the case of adding an NPC to plug a hole in an Adventure I usually have the character with a skill rank at least two levels lower than that of the "heroic Characters" unless the NPC is the leader of the group in which case the NPC might have levels in his skills either equal to the characters or no more than two levels greater than them. Generally however a good Referee should never let himself be straitjacketted by what is in a module, and should be ready and willing to adlib or make decisions on the fly if his her players decide to do the unexpected. Often these side trips or off the cuff parts of the adventure are a lot of fun for both the player and referee. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
November 2, 2011 - 4:22pm | Wouldn't a balanced party be the one where all the PCs have high DEX?  I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 3, 2011 - 11:14am | also Star Frontiers is unique because it allowed for characters to be programmed with skills via subliminal inprinting, but those skills would fade after a set period of time. If this method 9read Referee cheat) doesn't float your boat, characters can always use w00ts..er Robots, to perform those tasks that they are deficient in. I mean "No one ever suspects a w00t." "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
November 3, 2011 - 12:10pm | also Star Frontiers is unique because it allowed for characters to be programmed with skills via subliminal inprinting, but those skills would fade after a set period of time. I've seen people say that but where is that mentioned in the rules. I don't ever remember reading it.Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
November 3, 2011 - 1:17pm | also Star Frontiers is unique because it allowed for characters to be programmed with skills via subliminal inprinting, but those skills would fade after a set period of time. I've seen people say that but where is that mentioned in the rules. I don't ever remember reading it.Page 11 of the original rule book Under Training at the beginning of the skills section: Hypno-training I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 3, 2011 - 2:51pm | Okay, I had forgotten about that bit. I must admit, I've always went with the line a little later: "All three of these methods are optional. Some referees may want to ignore this rule, and simply allow players to pick new skills when their characters have earned enough experience points. Training is more realistic, but also more complicated." Especially since the first adventures I ran were the Volturnus modules and other than the other PC's, there were no higher level teachers. Basically it was all "practice". However, that description is talking about using hypno-training to learn a skill you're spending XP on. It doesn't say anything about temporarily learing a skill that fades over time. It may be a natural extension (and perfectly fine) but I don't think it is actually in the rules anywhere. I was just curious if it was written down some place. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
November 3, 2011 - 2:57pm | IIRC there was some option for temporary imprinting of skill just for one adventure but that could be non canon in origin. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 6, 2011 - 3:24am | I had forgotten about this thread, but I want to thank everyone here for their input. That said, I don't think skill programming is practical to the concept of everyone in the party being of one race or specialized to a single skill or both. The issue is being able to cope with the missing skills in a way that is fun. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 December 6, 2011 - 5:57am | If you watch police dramas you find the balanced party is almost forced on them. You have the investigating officers of various breeds, but they are supported by CSIs and tech geeks and the mandatory Coroner. Also you have the attorneys if the show goes that far. Probably in game terms some of these roles should be filed by NPCs. This way characters can get the information they need to proceed without the skills. Of course if your adventure takes place on an isolated planet where NPCs aren't readily available than the GM needs to adjust the adventure to their party. Say the party needs to break into the power plant of the base and disable the computer controlling the power supply. Normal adventures include a level of computer security to break. Instead just have the computer open and ready to use since why would pirates have a security program on their hidden base's computer OR have a tech ready to capture and be encouraged to do it for them. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
December 6, 2011 - 2:02pm | For an experienced group of gamers, an unbalanced party can provide half the fun of an adventure. For instance if you have a powerful bad guy and his mooks discovered hiding in a residential high rise; the party needs to figure out a way to "extract" them while minimizing collateral damage. During their reconnaissance, they realize that they do not have the technical skills to bypass their security. What to do, what to do? I remember playing this scenario at a convention with another player. It took us way too long to agree on a strategy, but we hashed out a half dozen possibilities before we settled on one. It was sweet success. It allowed us to use creative problem solving as apposed to rolling for skill checks. |
 December 6, 2011 - 3:11pm | First time poster, long time lurker.
Inigo brings up an excellent point, watching players (or as a player) think of interesting ways to get around obstacles is one of the best parts of the gaming experience. "Fifty grames of kaboomite will do, When security hacker you loose." |
December 6, 2011 - 4:23pm | LOL. Thank you for posting, w00t. Glad to have you at starfrontiers.us. We look forward to more posts from your sorry butt.  So anyone have any creative solutions to share that they have used when lacking a skill set? It doesn't matter the game system. I'm sure the same principle applies to other games. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
December 6, 2011 - 4:38pm | Yeah, pack the party with shooters and blast away till something breaks. Honestly, this is more of a concern for the referee and he should craft and modify the encounters to meet the needs of the party. And for that skill set you just have to have send along an npc. With veteran players its likely they look to the issue of balance but if not its the referees job to make sure the story can advance with the available skills sets. IMO. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 December 11, 2011 - 1:45pm | 'party balance' blah... ...I concur it feels forced. In any given situation, there is always more than one way to 'skin a heard of nerfs'... A remote pirate base may not need to lock it's main systems, but critical systems - or the captains personal logs? An unbalanced party can provide half the fun of an adventure... So the debutant socialite plays up to the captains graces and infiltrates his personal lair, the pilot runs the low-end infiltration and sets himself up on the flight-deck roster as a minor tech and handles the evac... but this pair is hardly 'balenced' in the typical view, they are just playing up their particular skill-sets. I find the passive reliance on "party balance" as infuriatingly single minded as the reliance on the "never split the party", and equally cliché... not trope, outright overused and mind-numbingly sickening cliché. cliché... like a yet-another-police-drama run... or an RPG campaign being based on yet-another-action-adventure-redux... or another round of claims that non-combat skill focused setting elements don't deserve equal game-focus to the warrior archetypes, because it might make the short-attention-span-warrior-players bored waiting for the mage/hacker/astrogator to do something "unrelated" to the yet-another-action-adventure-redux like "keeping everyone alive"...  ...I fall a bit far from the commonly held "industry-standards" propaganda, in what I think gaming is all about, funny though how many people I have known that also don't fit into the industry-expectations of "the perfect customer"... it must be one of those 10% majority rules, that make the 90% of the real world somehow abnormal - based on how they wish everyone wanted to play. ...there is always more than one way to 'skin a heard of nerfs'... and to that end I have never met a pre-prep adventure module that couldn't be 'circumvented' with a little 'what if I didn't have that skill?' ingenuity. Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
December 11, 2011 - 11:57pm | Maybe we don't have a balanced party issue. Since no one has ever taken a whole party of techs or medics it is really whether a party has either alot of warriors and some support or just all fighters. OR has anyone tried to go the other way and had an adventure with alot of puzzles and technical challenges and no fighting? Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
December 12, 2011 - 5:49am | [raises hand] Aye!  I actually play straight fighter-archetypes fairly frequently, (it's possible on just a bit more than personal average my characters tend to the warrior-elite role... though I have no personal preference at stake there.) ... but I have played and run in games where it is a dominate focus on some other skill-set, and the warriors (if present at all) are all support parts - that keep the party-majority twiddling-thumbs when it's time to keep them alive, with those dreadfully long boring combat scenes, they just can't shine as brightly in... having been on the thumb-twiddling side from all angles - am just irked by the frequent public statements made by the battle-hungry cliché... my apologies if I came out a bit bitter - it came up recently this week one-to-many-times...  Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
December 12, 2011 - 6:20am | Maybe we don't have a balanced party issue. Since no one has ever taken a whole party of techs or medics it is really whether a party has either alot of warriors and some support or just all fighters.
Heh a party of all Bio-social or all tech? Its such a part of the trope that you have to have military types and this combat. So much of the rules is dedicated to combat, my hat would be off to the referee that ran a game designed for just these groups. Perhaps an adventure could be written like the basic D&d solo adventures from back in the day, there was one for a thief character and one for a cleric IIRC. OR has anyone tried to go the other way and had an adventure with alot of puzzles and technical challenges and no fighting? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 12, 2011 - 7:32am | Let's break it down. Using what was supposed to be a balanced party the Ultimate SF party the Crew of the Serenity. Captain Mal---Military(Tactics) Zoe---Militarty(stealth expert) Wash---Tech(Pilot) Inara---Bio-Social (and we loved that Social) Jayne---Military(shooter expert) Kaylee---Tech(fixing things) Doctor Simon---Bio-Social (Bio boy) River---Psychic/Military (hand to hand expert) Shepard Book Military and Bio-Social (his skill were kept under wraps but if the series had lasted probably would have found out he was an Agent) So our nine member balanced party has FIVE fighters and only one of each and the four support members were all presented as extremely gifted in there fields. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
December 12, 2011 - 12:21pm | One way to combat the cliche is to simply let players create any character they want to create regardless of game or party balance. This is the best way to make things most interesting. It's always irked me to be told "We already have that in the party, why don't you choose...". Of course, I had always done this very thing myself, not realizing that "party balance" was an arbitrary machination. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
December 12, 2011 - 2:01pm | One of my biggest gripes with D&D 3.5 was that every character in the party had to carry a bow in case of ranged combat, my first time in a RPG after 20 years I had a character concept and a miniature that looked strangely like Titus Pulo from the series Rome. And I wanted to play a big ox of a fighter who chucks a javelin (like a roman pillum) and charges into combat with his sword, problem was the homebrew module kept dumping us into missile dual situations where I got to play target. There were a few subtle comments, perhaps not quite as subtle as some of the people making them thought, about perhaps I wanted to loot a bow from the friggan kobolds! !! I steadfastly refused to do so knowing who my character was. Eventually we discovered a spear of returning just by chance. NOT a fond memory. I rather hate RPG campaigned with pre ordained paths and with the inspired character concepts that everyone in the world gets to play the same character. I also hate playing two characters so that our small group can have a balanced party that can beat the monsters listed in the module. Whatever happened to GM prep and balancing the game for your group? Simple fact is that I can only deal with one D&d character at a time especially with four page character sheets and trying to role play two characters sucks especially since you have to shuffle eight pages of character sheets for the two characters. Why do I love SF? One page character sheet, no looking up fire ball spell for the 1000th time, fast play, with little rule book consult and combats that don't take all freaking evening. Unbalanced party? I can deal because the game is just plain fun. There I just scratched my rant itch. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 12, 2011 - 1:54pm | PS on the rant: If I ever run another fantasy game the house rule will be that I will hand every spell caster a beautifully printed sheet labeled spell book. And if after the first session a spell is not recorded with all its pertinent details in the spell book so there is no delay of game to consult rule books then the spell caster's memory has failed him he loses the turn and the monsters get their initiative. I've come to the conclusions that if your playing a spell caster create a spell book, whether a sheet of paper or index cards hole punched and put on a metal ring. If you can't do that then play thief or fighter. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 12, 2011 - 2:50pm | Brilliant! Spell cards on a metal ring! (One of those metal rings you can snap open and closed.) Love it. That could be a major marketable tool. You made a good point. Not being forced into a mold one way or the other. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
December 12, 2011 - 6:04pm | Captain Mal - I'd add Pilot, he was portrayed as experienced before during and after the war... and considered almost as good as Wash in atmo and fair space-fights. "...if the series had lasted probably would have found out he was an Agent." moreover either a rouge agent or a watcher for a faction not yet seen to flex its muscles. (a few of those were waiting in the wings.) but that nit-picky aside... nothing for me to say other than I agree 100% - no room for 1% misunderatanding or a 00% critical failure... I am unsure without checking rules and crossing with historical statistics... but my eyeball of that kobold-archer vs. human-pilum seems to favor the human-pilum for advantages... range and RoF should actually be balanced by size and strength adjustments... also seems to me and my recollection that the pilum could be used as a short foot-lance and even set-like a polearm... and if sturdy enough in craftsmanship a light-quarterstaff. Love the spell-holder-ring also, I have used home-made index-cards, kept my own file-folder spell-book, and used published gimmick cards... frequently the simple list on a piece of paper works just fine for me. "...let players create any character they want to create regardless of game or party balance." wouldn't have it any other way... usually... sometimes I have felt it necessary to outline a list of acceptables per environment and/or campaign focus, but these are usually accommodating to player expectations anyway... like the basic operational crew for a ship... or the basic mission-team requirement for a particular organization... but if the players are putting together their own team background and goals, and there is suitable sandbox available I don't sweat it. Star Frontiers does seem Military biased more than any other sci-fi setting or system I know... but it could be an 8-10man exploration team of all field-techs and bio-social all on a camping-trip, with one or two security/transport NPC's to round-out the plausible survivability - easily enough. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
December 12, 2011 - 8:21pm | Brilliant! Spell cards on a metal ring! (One of those metal rings you can snap open and closed.) Love it. That could be a major marketable tool. You made a good point. Not being forced into a mold one way or the other. I think it would be a hard sell though the metal ring usually costs less then a dollar and index cards are easy to come by as well as index cards. Though there are companies that will print playing cards for games for you. Problem with D&D is that you'd need a boat load of decks to cover them all. Probably easier to just copy the spells you need, to me its just about being prepared, and blows my mind that every other game session for two years fire ball or one of the other wizard "nukes" had to be consulted every time it was cast- well I dont mind a spell being consulted just minded how the rule book had to be found within a pile of hardcover books, then the page had to be found, then the paragraphs read then dice rolled, book closed, oooopss! have to calculate spell resistence! reopen the freaking book, reread the freaking paragraphes, meanwhile I've eaten half of a large bag of Doritos in that time. All of that takes time in a game known for taking time to run a combat. I've toyed with doing four fold book and center stapled with a nicely printed cover but the metal ring with a hole punched in a the corner of an index card is probably faster and less "nerdy" I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 13, 2011 - 7:14am | Or one of those 'Richard-Simmons food-counter-sleeves' to hold the cards in... those could have a spell book or scroll case look, and you know which spells you have in your spell book, and which you still have memorized, by moving them from one page to the other... a bit easier than fumbling with one of those ring-clasps. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
December 13, 2011 - 8:31am | Checking title of forum and website wondering about spell books and then it hits me. They are really talking about techs carrying tech manuals which list what they can fix, what their base chance to fix it is, what they need to fix it, what tool kit(s) they are carrying and what tools are in it AND most important what spare parts and expendables they are carrying and maybe have available in the Explorer's storage cabinet. They might also include a special section listing what patch job/tinkerings have worked in the past like when they pulled the servo-heat processor out of the cyberdragon and used it to replace the reserve power thermo on the hovercar to make their escape. Yes techs truly are wizards and calling their manuals spellbooks, that's a good one. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
