 May 29, 2011 - 12:14pm | Been thinking about rank structure for the Flight, the minitary arm of the Rim Coalition This thread was a discussion from earlier about it: http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/4544 and since Jacobsar has been doing really cool stuff working on the UPF rank structure with artwork to match I was thinking about the Flight, partly also because I need to get off my can and wrap up the Zebulon's Guide to the Rim for magazine publication. At anyrate, if you look at the above link Will suggested a rank structure that while it has various names and such taken from the bird/wing motiff of the Flight it really looks like a human style rank structure. I got asking myself whether an alien culture would develop something so recognizable to a human. The UPF rank structure looks like something a human would use and why not? Human are a major player in the UPF. However the Rim will have already developed its naval traditions long before the UPF is discovered. So... is there a reason why a rank structure MUST follow the traditional enlisted and officer structure? What would an alien rank structure look like? I'd like the military members to sound off on this, please. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 29, 2011 - 12:26pm | One idea that occured to me is to minimize the sharp distinction between the enlisted and officer that is SOP in human culture rank structures. what if everyone or at least 90% of everyone in the Flight starts out as enlisted for their first tour. AT the time they would progress to sub-officer they would make a carreer choice to become the equiv of a non commissioned officer or a officer. Though the Flight doesn't really veiw it in those terms; but rather in terms of Mission vs Operations. In other words the Flight military person who goes the "non commissioned officer" route by choice and inclination if one who is focused on operations and making the ship run while those who go the "officer" route are those that are by choice and inclination focused on Mission and carrying out a command assignment. This would effectively reverse the trend that "mustangs", those who started as enlisted before going to OCS, are the minority but rather the majority in the Flight and the natural discrimination of the officer corp if against those that never did the enlisted tour. Under this system the senior NCO would very likely have a much closer working relationship with the ships Captain. I think with this system there would be implications for who performs what space ship skills too. Ie guns and engineering my be the traditional province for NCOs and astrogation and piloting might be the traditional province for officer. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 May 29, 2011 - 1:26pm | Actualy..I think the rank structure should follow the Roman legion more closely. In the legion the distinctions between comoner an equesrian class was much less obvious to the structure. basically the structure looked somthing like this: legionnaire (individual soldier) Decturian (leader of ten, actualy I stole this from the cavalry units leading 30 horse) Tessararian,Optio ( Sort of apprentice Centurians, one each per 80-120) Centurian (leader of 100 *note most centuries had about 80) Tribune ( 6 for every legion of say 5-8000, 2 elected by the people and the rest promoted from centurions) Legate ( one for each Legion, basicaly general) In this system all warriors start as legionnaires accept the elected tribunes and possibly the Legate. I think this system is more in line to what I see the Vrusk using. Reasonable men adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable men. Edwin Louis Cole |
May 29, 2011 - 8:37pm | @ Jacobsar I agree that that system would sound good for the vrusk. so in the Terledrom militia that ranks go: vr'k'k which actually derives from an ancient root that also gives us vrusk and is now usally translated soldier or sailor depending on the service involved. deck'ik which derives from a root word that means 10 and under the hive system it meant leader of 10 but in modern parlance it usually translates into PanGal as squad leader regardless of the number of individuals in the squad. Dex-deck'ik derives from a root word meaning 100 and traditionally meant leader of 100 or leader of 10 squads in modern parlance its translated Captain kik-Dec is the traditional title of what could be termed assistant squad leader some linguist have translated it Corporal but debate still crops up as to what its translation should be. Kik-Dex or Kik-Dex-Deck'ik is the traditional title of the under captain in modern parlance its used to designate Leutenants Tri_Deck'ik or Tri-Deck derives from a root meaning literally three 100s. Again this term is still debated as to the proper translation with Major and Col. being popular zick-nick or zick is the ancient term for general and is one of the rank names where we are certain what its proper translation is in PanGal. Hey Jacobsar, what do you think of Polyhedron pips for rank insignia for the vrusk? PS: what can we do with the Flight's ranks structure to make it more alien? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 May 29, 2011 - 9:06pm | Jedion357 wrote "what if everyone or at least 90% of everyone in the Flight starts out as enlisted for their first tour." Apparently you have never read Starship Troopers (The book not the movie or TV series). Everybody fights nobody quits and everyone starts as a private. Of course they have an extremely low enlisted to officer ratio. On the other extreme the English Army of the 18th-19th Century had a very large officer corp primarily because comissions were bought and every noble was expected to have one whether they were any good or actually did anything. Ranks are good to have but first we should actually figure out what the structure of the military is. Going with the canon we find they describe both officer and enlisted and some of the ships mention how many there are of each but a real Table of Organization would be useful. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
May 30, 2011 - 12:24am | Rattaveller: I think the polyhedrons might work for the Vrusk rank, but my first thought was more along the lines of mandibles and compound eyes. I know, sounds weird but I think if the symbols were stylized like tribal tattoos it could work nicely. Reasonable men adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable men. Edwin Louis Cole |
May 30, 2011 - 6:06am | Remember that the Roman legions were the basis for many other militaries. Up until the 20th century the whole remaining in formation and marching forward in blocks was how most combat took place. With the weaponry available on the Frontier a much more mobile and spread out method would need to be used. Here's a wild and not often used idea. Try the rank structure of the Native American tribes. They did not fight in linear blocks and they lived in a communal society. Not that they were insects but they shared what they had more than Western societies. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 May 30, 2011 - 7:42am | I like the rank structure ideas, but a less latinized root might help make it a little more alien for me. Swahili was used for the DS9's Dominion moja = one kumi ya tio = Ten of Ten mia = hundred Jemadari = Centurion Akida = Foreman Mroma = Captain Latvian looks nice for influencing Vruskan also one = viena ten = desmit hundred = simts Officer = Virsnieks Yule = Ziemsvetki Mixed with the posted Vruskan examples and given a base six vrr'iena'k = singular Soldier or Warrior; Seamen, Soldiers, Airmen, and Spacers, little distinction is made between these military roles, especially at this level. vrr'ienya'tio'k'k= A squad or task-unit, of one to six, full unit adds three Virzinkt Officers. -ya'tio'k'k= Suffix 'of an element of 9 Soldiers'; roughly equivalent to Platoon, Company, or Decturian Deckya'tio'k'k = A unit Historically known to indicate 9 to 60 individuals. -deck'ik= Suffix 'of an element of 120 Soldiers'; roughly equivalent to Company, Battalion, or Centurian Zickdeck'ik = Unit Historically known to indicate 90 to 120 individuals. Zimksdeck'ik = Unit Historically known to indicate 120 to 360 individuals. Virzinkt= Vrr'iena'k task leaders equivalent to Ensigns, Cadets, and Sergeants by role, and the most frequently, and easily, purchaced rank in a vrr'ienya'tio'k'k. Virsnieks= Lower Officers equivalent to Lieutenants and Under Captains , literally translates to leader, officer, or trusted, this is the highest rank that can be purchased by an individual vrusk,and they lead a Vrr'ienya'tio'k'k or Deckya'tio'k'k. Akida = Officers, literally translates to leader, officer, or respected, these ranks can only be gained by promotion, or purchased by House-sponsorship. Akidaya'tio'k'k = Officers equivalent to Captains; 6 for every Zickdeck'ik. Akidadeck'ik= Officers equivalent to Major Captains, Commanders, and Lesser Marshals; 6 for every Zimksdeck'ik. Ziem'vrr'tki Mroma= literaly 'Law Empowered Caretaker' equivalent to Generals, Admirals, and High Marshals, usually in charge of an entire Tzvuourm of six or more Zimksdeck'ik, an entire logistics department, or a Colonial Overwatch/Caretaker Oversight Posting. Not to be confused with Law Enforcement Officers, but the distinction can be abstract on Vrusk worlds in peace time, as the primary focus of the military takes orders from a Colonial Logistics Board of High-Marshals/Ziem'vrr'tki Mroma, and thus enforces the colonial conglomerate policy of the prosperity cooperative. 6 for every Division, or Legion of say 2160-12960, 2 elected by the Virsnieks, 2 promoted from the Akida, and 2 emplaced by a Colonial Prosperity Board. I prefer Vrusks to count in base-three, rather than duo-decimal, gives them a more alien-insecty feel, and makes fraction-math a lot easier. Mroma = A title from the ancient position of the Royal Nursery Maidens, literally means Caretaker of Many in modern terms. In keeping the flair, and the basic legionesqe breakdown, just some thoughts on making it more... resource/economic oriented... insect buggy, and... hive-minded alien... yes, I know it looks like a mess to me too, from a modern military perspective. I think the roman legions were a mess by modern organizational standards... yet, they still had one heck of a mission-tested organization, so it must work. Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
May 30, 2011 - 9:55am | Hmm...A brief departure to Vrusk language. Reasonable men adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable men. Edwin Louis Cole |
May 30, 2011 - 9:57am | For purpose of a model of The Flight, The CFM, and the Coalition, I would look toward the Early Northern Europeans; Vikings, Norsemen, and the East India Trading Co. for some inspiration... The linguistics of that region, and the style of the organization, are already an apparent influence in the given material. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
May 30, 2011 - 9:58am | Good idea Spirit. Reasonable men adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable men. Edwin Louis Cole |
June 10, 2011 - 7:51am | @jacobsar I would agree, but pursuing the IPA will show that the traditional uses of these symbols, are not the only phonemic values they contain. In reducing the already limited romaji script, and identifying many single phonemics with multiple graphemes from that available list, it often becomes a mater of recognizing the Vruskan accent in these specific representations. Otherwise I have not had time yet to edit my content, pardon my slowness, and I will get right on it...  and thanks... on both observations.  good catch!Ok... I took another look, you scared me with mentioning laterals (the L) I usually omit all of those from Vruskan phoneme sets completely, with a few difficult to explain exceptions. Nasals (M and N) are buzzable (for a lack of a proper human term) and can be heard imitated by various buzzing insects, most of the occurrences of these representations in my examples are placed in pitch shift positions, and frequently followed by immediate non-pulmonics (clicks) and hard stops (k, t, d, etc...), so it is still a Vruskan safe phonemic set. Otherwise, you have to give some room for the unrepresented phonemes in romaji, some are given typical multi-letter representation [chk, kh, dz, ui, tsk] but many are not quickly recognized [pop, t'p' or *, and clop, 'tlp', or |lp|], and still others are from completely non-human origins. btw, The complete Thri-kreen players guide, had a verynice comprehensive essay on buggy languages, and the structural appearance of the vocal formation elements of the Vrusk seems to be compatible with the Kreen, tho' fully agreed... they are not necessarily exact. Buggy coarticulates are nigh-impossible for a Human mouth to contemplate, also, and for the same structural reasons mentioned. Vrusk have an independent set of mandibles that can coarticulate mandibular stops and mandibular buzzes (  ? is there even a word in any Human lexems for these concepts  ) with maintained simultaneous glottal buzzes and even simple open vowels.You just try and for a glottal 'qoq' while maintaining a buzzed fricative 'vnv' simultaneously.... no DON'T!!! you might dislocate your jaw, or choke on your tongue.  Non-Pulmonic, and diacritic, graphemes are not supported in these posts, or I would get more specific, and likely more concise.  ".... do you have nine tongues, kid?" "wha..wh... what?" "tongues, kid, do you have nine of 'em?" "n.. no..." "then give it up! ...'sides it's not really a language, more of a mental thing." Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
May 30, 2011 - 5:47pm | Note we actually have 2 distinct on topic discussions going here so use care you dont get confused: rank structure for the Wing that is more alien and a traditional rank structure for the vrusk which would only really be used on a vrusk world for security and police services as well as for a vrusk dominated militia like in Fromeltar. we may consider (not manditory) moving the vrusk discussion to the core 4 project; I started a thread there on vrusk rank so that it would be easy to find when the vrusk are back under development. http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/5387 @ spirit coyote: base three works or even a base that is built off of a multiple of 3 because they have 2 hands or 8 feet; which would give you base 6 or base 24, I suspect that base 6 might be the best trade off of something that is actually workable: a vrusk military squad = 6 individuals; a vrusk military company = 6 squads, etc. @ jacobsar: mandible and compound eyes done in a stylized way sound great RE: Wing ranks- I have little doubt that the Wing was organized by and out of CFM doctrine and philosophy- the ifshnits were the great explorers of the Rim and they were the first into space as well as the frist to bare the brunt of stopping the sathar thus the look and feel of the Flight's rank structure is probably patterned after CFM/ifshnit maritime tradition. Iggy just proposed a look and feel to the osakar homeworld which would contra-indicate a maritime tradtion so it seems to me that the Rim's space navy was modelled after a strong naval tradition and the discussion concerning the planets in the Capella system suggest that the naval tradition came from there. Plus the humma are not a very good candidate for a few reasons. Finally whatever the nuts and bolts of the actually rank structure is I'd like to keep the rank names that Will proposed which took their inspiration form the name of the service: Flight- wing and tallon etc. Perhaps the ifshnit homeworld had significant aquatic avian that caught the ifshnit imagination. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
June 15, 2011 - 10:51am | In addition to alternative wind-power possibilities I have mentioned in other posts, I could also see the Ifshnit not have a Hindenburg disaster cripple the early Airship Industry, and alter the course of it's potential maritime extension as Air-Ships, and Air-Admirals, were the standard before Air-Planes, and Sky-Marshals. (granted there were other reasons, but the reporter on scene and his "oh my god, the humanity! the humanity!" had its effect on this young impressionable mind, and also supported later comprehension of media responsibility. I know it had to have taken it's toll on the minds of the public at that time, and contributed to the reduced trust in air-travel. Just as the Chalenger managed to throw a lot of brakes on the space program until 'something safer can be built'...) Possible Early Ifshnit Organization The Fall of the House Ifshna and Rise of The CFM Dominance A possible early period CFM corollary A possible late period CFM corollary A Historic Basis In Ifshnit Ranking Structures Ni'kh - Chief of Estates A Ni'kh is elected by the althing to lead the tribute’s warriors, or merchants, into conflict; and perform all the other duties of the Ni'kh. Larr'iij - Officer of the Bond A Larr'iij is a bonded warrior appointed by the Ni'kh to lead at least 40 men. Traditionally, all bonded warriors owned and commanded a ship, but some tribes grant this title to men without a ship. Irral'laats - Officer of a Guild An Irral'laats was the Ni'kh’s deputy in the field, a commander. If you were not a bonded or La'ark and were not in the Yi'vel (army) as a duty to your village, you most likely were member of the Lraac'Suh or a paid professional soldier also known as the Shtilnem. In Alde Esron, the term Lraac'Suh is just a word meaning a household servant, and could be applied to anyone who served a lord in his household - La'ark - "person of the house" or later just "person" or "citizen" sometimes "employee", depending on context. As the Suhni'khiav settled Dh'nal'ngii it took on a meaning nearer to the later medieval idea of 'Guildhouse Traders', the highly trained soldier who served a particular lord and his family or household. Lraac'Suh were paid traders with their own rules of fair price and haggling, answerable directly to the Ni'kh (or later some of the more powerful Executives who had their own Lraac'Suh). Most of the Lraac'Suh lived at the Ni'kh's bazaar and served him directly. Rthaam'Sikrem - Guild Standard Bearer One of the only two specifically military posts referred to at the time was the Rthaam'Sikremor Standard Bearer. The standard being the flag of the Ni'kh. This was an honored position since many Ni'khiav standards were said to have magical properties. Some also were thought to have mystical powers, and that they brought the favor of Ni'do (the master of all Eshrroin gods) and to any army carrying them. A famous example is the Naa'Faer (A raven-like amphibious avian of the deep waters and coasts) standard. If you were to be the Rthaam'Sikrem, you most likely were among a class of individuals known also as La'arks or wealthy noblemen. In our society you would be quite wealthy and a member of the upper class. Rits'egg - Guild Banker In the eleventh century the Eshrroin Ni'khs probably had an immediate retinue of about ninety men, excluding menial servants and hangers on. These were divided into the n'nem'ðrih(household men or n'nem'thrih, i.e.; men who were privileged to be sharing his hearth or quarters) and a lower class called rits'egg literally hosts, whose pay was half that of the n'nem'ðrih. The rits'egg had their own leader, assembly and quarters. They acted as a kind of treasury guard, doing errands for the Ni'kh, adjucating fair prices, collecting payments, and entertaining customers. They were a popular group, and were 'party hosts' in many a house. Nem'Searr'yiits - Dedicated Guild Executives The upper levels of Ni'khiav society were comprised of the various forms of aristocracy. The lowest rank of rulers were the N'niim'sd'naal (roughly equivalent to the medieval 'baron'), known as nem'searr'yiits in Krram'neid. Originally the individual ship commanders, the later qualification for this rank was the ability to field and maintain forty armed men in the Yi'vel. The position was not hereditary and was gained through an oath of loyalty to the Ni'kh, on whose behalf they held their authority. N'nemo'rrih - Full Board Members and Executive Captains The N'nemo'rrih were hand-picked and well rewarded. To be chosen was a great honor and meant acceptance not only by the other members, but by the Ni'kh. A Nemoth'rrihpaid homage to the Ni'kh and swore loyalty to him and the other Nemoth'rrih. In Nei'oh - Elder Guildman Quite simply, an Nei'oh is a mature warrior or merchant. Ni'khiav society, during the time that they had occupied and settled what is now most of Dh'nal'gnii and Dh'nal'toichs, had a surprisingly organized and equitable set of laws. For a people who were so careless of the rights of the folk they traded and fought with, the Ni'khiavs were surprisingly organized and careful of their rights at home. There was a strict system of law, enforced by the people that lived under it. Regular meetings - called Things or Althings - were held at which the Law was read aloud. At these meetings, cases were judged and punishments imposed by a council of important men who were changed from time to time. Every free man or woman had the right to speak at an Althing, and women were generally held to be the equal of men under the law. Women retained their rights to manage their own money and property after marriage and could obtain a divorce with the same ease - or difficulty - as a man. Women only became second-class citizens after the imposition of Nam'ron Law that was to follow after the Ni'khiavs were pushed out of Gneird - Bonded Initiate Chances are if you were a landowner (bonded or Oathbonded) in Ni'khiav times were the men who tilled land and raised stock, bore witness and produced verdicts, said aye or no on matters of public concern at the public meeting or Thing pronounced “tin” (including matters as important as the election of a Ni'kh or a change of religion), attended religious and lay ceremonies, made and bore weapons, manned ships, served in levies, were conscious of their dues and worth, and so impressed these upon others that as a free peasantry stood in a class of their own among Ifshnit. You might find yourself on a Ni'khiav ship as a warrior and sailor, one of the facets of Ni'khiav history most well known. There was very little formal structure by way of military rank in Ni'khiav armies. As a rule the term gneird is applied to a young warrior, merchant, or shiphand. Lil'arth - Owned Initiate A lil'arth is a slave and cannot own land. A lil'arth can own goods and money, however, and can craft and sell products at a market in his or her free time. A lil'arth can purchase his or her freedom to become a freed, and sometimes a freed who serves a tour of service, can become a Gneird. A child born to a female lil'arth goes into the father’s class of society. Note: simply a basis of a possible modern, loose, maritime, and clan-like structure, that might appeal to the Ifshnit Historian. It would certainly be different, and somewhat alien, to see a clan-like and loose organizational structure be the basis for an entirely modern or interstellar naval/cosmal military, of primarily merchantile interests. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
June 3, 2011 - 6:30pm | Hey Guys! Reasonable men adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable men. Edwin Louis Cole |
June 3, 2011 - 6:50pm | Hey Guys! Just because the CFM has the biggest presence in the Frontier does not mean that the CFM is all there is to being an Ifshnit. So I'm unsure we need to go with coins or quills if the suggestion was linked to the CFM angle. Consider this: the CFM was the driving force behind exploring the Rim and the first up in facing down the sathar. Since military operations, no matter how neccessary, can be bad for business the CFM would have pushed for the Rim Coalition and the Flight. Being a driving force behind the organization of the Flight would also mean that the traditions, philosophy, and tactics of the CFM would also find their way into the Flight at least in the beginning. Why am I pointing out the above? Because I think the name of the Flight is instructive; bird/raptor motiff. It certainly lent itself to the rank names that were worked up in the Zeb expanded project. There is a high probability that the rank structure of both the Flight and the CFM are very similar. In fact I think they should be similar. So that said, CFM ranks should conform to or sound like Flight ranks. Whether we let the ranks that were worked up for the Flight stand or work on new ones is up for debate. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
June 3, 2011 - 7:07pm | Ok..so what do you imagine Ifshn birds to look like? Reasonable men adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable men. Edwin Louis Cole |
June 3, 2011 - 7:30pm | Ok..so what do you imagine Ifshn birds to look like? Well I'm opening the floor for debate, Will isn't around anymore to defend his proposal and though I like it we dont have to use it. I think a stylized talon or wing would work though, perhaps even some symbol that would have come out of their maritime past. Or did their maritime tradition draw its inspiration from birds? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
June 3, 2011 - 7:40pm | Hmm. Sails were oftain described poeticly as wings...maybe that is an angle. I'll look around. Reasonable men adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable men. Edwin Louis Cole |
June 8, 2011 - 3:04pm | What if: Quills were made out of a long-fish skeleton. Like a stiffer bodied flying-eel, use the head for a classic inkwell, and the tail tip for the nib, guts make the alchemical-base for ink, and other parts might make paper. Not the only source of these things, but one that was used extensivly by some celebrated culture and it's guildhouse of advanced sages. Lets call that culture the Athe'Ninn and the Lexan'Diur Mavin-guild or something... They kept the knot-work and hash-mark inspired graphemes. Continued to thread coins on twine. Whales could be used as blimps and flown... ok n/m... smaller lighter-than-air marine critters might be ok though, and they just wished they could find larger air-leviathans to sail the celestial seas with. Thus such legendary beasts entered the conciousness of ancient historians, and so a sagely-priest of entertainment known as Je'haph Gruh'hob wrote many scribe-tales and several audience participatory theatrical socials, based on these legends of yore, known as "Burtotskrie: Avontuurlijkes voili Ulvikralliq" [rough translation - Mystic-rovers: Excitment in the High Celestial Sea] From what I have read, the CFM (perhaps in an earlier form) was responsible for the Coalition of the Ifshnit themselves, and then (as the CFM more 'modern') the whole Rim through trade-partnerships, well before they encountered the frontier's Corporations, or the still young UPF. Specificaly mentioned as being not just the foundation of the Rim Coalition, but also the political center De Facto of the Coalition. The Ifshnit are the CFM and the Coalition, by de facto politics, influence, and activity, they just don't seem to admit it, possibly even to themselves. The other Rim Homeworlds are far less active, and are closer to being coat-tailers to the Ifshnit. Outside of the CFM other races are not shown to be very trusted, and the Ifshn Incorporated Guilds seem to favor doing business (and politics) by the Interstellar CFM proxy. Looking at Dl'yn or Dl'yiinn as a modern Ifshn corporate president or some such, maybe as an honorific like sir and ma'am. I just like the sound of the word as an Ifshn phonetic aesthetic. (doyen/doyenne...the senior member, as in age, rank, or experience, of a group, class, profession, etc.) Yeah, I like the idea of using some form of currency in the ranking system, but don't really want to turn them into the Ferengi as was mentioned elsewhere. I can see 'viking merchants' sure, but not overdone like those guys. Bars and stars is a bit tacky and overused, raptors are also somewhat overdone... scrolls and ribbons makes it sound a bit sagely, a ribbon of coins works for the numeric ranking. The independence and individuality of the Ifshn imperative psyche, seems to require both an extremely loose system of ranking, and a definite tendency for needing to recognize merited authority... Meritocracy!! yes! I have been trying to peg them for days... there it is!  they are predisposed to an Anarchistic Meritocracy mindset, such that those catagories are not in an Ifshn philosophical discussion internally, they are just the status quo! Like the Vrusk predisposition to a Collective Identity (hive minds), and structuring Resource Economics (non-currency), the Vrusk concepts related to Collective Responsibility, Hive Life, Communal Being, Group Think, Social Organization, and Civic Society are just that interrelated!kewl... that one was difficult because no Anarchistic Meritocracy really exists... hm... pirates and vikings... perhaps in a loose interpretation. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
June 4, 2011 - 11:27pm | Great spirit. Good grey matter at work there. I like some of the ancient coins from some aAsian cultures. Like the Chinese coins that have holes in them so they can be threaded and kept on a necklace. Has anyone given any thought what the Ifshn wirting would look like? I think I have an idea for the first few ranks but need a unique alphabet. Reasonable men adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable men. Edwin Louis Cole |
 June 5, 2011 - 10:29am | If you go with the Ifshnit braiding their hair and favoring a vest as their stylized clothing then different coins and minted beads could be braided into the hair or sewn onto the vest fringe. -iggy |
June 8, 2011 - 12:40pm | In addition to the, hack-coin bracelets of the Northern Europeans, and the ribbons of coins of the Asians; some of the Ancient African coins, used in places throughout that continent, were made in forms that would look compleatly like jewelry to modern eyes, but were in every respect coin currency by modern standards. I was thinking primarily of the vest ribbons of the Asians (or perhaps the Oligarchies of the ancient near-east, I believe that might be more accurate), certainly, I like how that could be extended to show informal rankings of merit in a military context, in an informal ranking structure that the Ifshnit would seem to prefer. Feathers and African Coin were already mentioned in a post on Yazirian Currencies. In that discussion I mentioned a little more about the real-world counterparts and alternatives to many forms of coinage. As I believe I mentioned there, I like the idea of the Yazirians using prepared rare feathers and African stylized coin, and the braiding of such into sashes and manes where appropriate (as not all Yazerian subtypes have naturally growing manes that would accommodate, but apparently several of the accepted 'elite-races' do). Ifshnit could braid beard and hair in a similar manner, but I would think it would not be as global in cultural custom as with the Yazirians. Vests denoting profession and coined ribbons showing a rank of profession, seem more appropriate here. Perhaps it lends to a bit of complementary aesthetic to the mastercrafter houses and long lived political guilds mystique, and that makes the visuals a more appreciable aesthetic for me. For the writing influence I was thinking: Ogham Notches on Sticks and Hard Edges Written Style 1 Written Style 2 Knot and Thread work on Ribbons and Sashes Written Style 3 Written Style 4 Raised Bump and Weave on Mats and Vests Written Style 5 Written Style 6 I can leak grey matter all over my keyboard easily enough, but can only hope it makes an astheticly pleasing design, and not a discouraging mess.  Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
June 10, 2011 - 9:04am | Just some thoughts on what a few Infsn Aves might look like... as per request... --------------------------------------------------------- Diuce'aeloose --------------------------------------------------------- I was on a roll in the Osakar post and some started spilling over to the other races... made this just for giving some Alien Aves to the Ifshnit Biosphere, and answering jacobsar's question. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
June 12, 2011 - 8:29pm | Looking into this subject further for a few days in an attempt to come up with something truly alien, it seems to me that Vrusk would prefer the Matrix approach to organizing their militaries, as well as their governments, societies, and corporations. Example A Example B Example C Ifshn might prefer a Hybrid of Circular and Matrix. Chart I Chart II Chart III Appendix: Omega Some other Info The problem I am having is identifying any structure that has ZERO hierarchical elements, at some level there are still Commanders Of The Project and an Those Enlisted To Carry Out Commands... These are usually separated in some Middle Management Operations Officials that are Enlisted, Elevated, or Made Men For The Role... especially the more complex the system maintaining project logistics gets. So on some level there will be Officers, Noncoms, and Enlisted... what they are referred to as, and how they relate to each other may change some, but not enough to make a different system seem alien or exotic in that regard. There have still been a lot of different structures attempted in the history of the world, some fair better than others, and perhaps a truly alien mindset could make better use of a system that isn't possible for humans to maintain. I let this jumbled mess of thoughts stand, and hope someone can explain to me what I said... for I am at a loss to what I even intended to say here... Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
June 13, 2011 - 7:01pm | Ok time for some summing up and review of what we got; except that there is an awfull lot of material ins some of the previous post to sum up. and we have multiple lines of talk going on with stuff on the vrusk and the ifshnit Incidently there is good material on the vrusk but I need to ignore that right now As I'm endeavoring to polish up some of the Zebulon's guide material on the Rim to move it to print. I had forgotten that the core of Will's rank structure for the Flight had been added to the documents section of Zebs Guide expanded. RE: http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/4528 Since the section on the Rim is moving in the direction of being submitted to the zine I'd like to finalize any thoughts on the rank structure of the Flight and the CFM before it gets submitted. We have a lot of material here and not all of it can be used effectively Perhaps we might finalize a rank structure that is similar to the one posted for the Flight but a little different with it being obvious that the Flights ranks evolved out of the CFMs. Any Ideas? I like the idea of the chinese style coins woven into the hair and it fits the ifshnit. I was hoping someone with tallent in graphic arts, would consider doing up some. Perhaps the CFM persists in wearing the rank woven into braids while a stylized version is worn on Flight uniforms and by some CFM captians. Could be that the enlisted ranks were denoted by feathers and the officer ranks by actual coins? EDIT: this thread is tracking any critiques and the status of the ZG to the Rim before it goes to the magazine. http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/5459 I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
June 14, 2011 - 3:00pm | I am sure they could Identify many negative aspects of organizational structures that even humans are not aware of... but such observation doesn't exclude a structure from consideration. Such a negative effect isn't necessarily as severe within their biological psyche either, and could be lessened further by more logical approaches than humans have tended to implement. I do not intend support or denial for any particular management, governance, or rationality, only observe the association to which a particular style of management is befitting to a chosen system of governance within the mindset of perceivable alien rationality. I don't agree that the main three aliens are not really alien, if they were not they wouldn't feel like they were to me, I tend to look below the rubber-suit... Yazirians are close, but still strange, and Vrusk and Dralasites are outright buggy... which is what I like about those last two, especially those little budding sporophytic hermaphro-blobs, so strange they don't even bother pretending to understand themselves...
at least I am not the only one that doesn't understand me... that makes me feel a little less alone...Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
June 14, 2011 - 8:25pm | OK...Finalize um... the final structure should have a merchant guild feel. I like the circular org structure, how would this translate into ranks? Chart III Reasonable men adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable men. Edwin Louis Cole |
 June 14, 2011 - 10:39pm | That is a sweet chart. |
June 15, 2011 - 11:21am | I was kinda partial to that one myself... aesthetics made me think of both Ifshn Guild Estates and Dralasite Social Clubs... This is still basically hierarchical: Central Circle - Commanders Of The Project... Ni'kh - Chief of Estates Large Circles on Main Spokes - Those Enlisted To Carry Out and Issue Commands... Larr'iij - Officer of the Bond Irral'laats - Officer of a Guild Nem'Searr'yiits - Council of Dedicated Guild Executives Rits'egg - Guild Banker Small Circles - Middle Management Operations Officials, Enlisted, Elevated, or Made Men For The Role... N'nemo'rrih - Full Board Members and Executive Captains Nei'oh- Elder Guildman Gneird - Bonded Initiate Smallest and Double Connected Circles Lil'arth - Owned Initiate Including structure variations of other Guild Estates and 'Special-Project Workshops' can be considered also... Looking this over, the main body of the organization of the Flight would be in the last two radials, answering to; Larr'iij - Officer of the Bond, Irral'laats - Officer of a Guild, Nem'Searr'yiits - Council of Dedicated Guild Executives, Rits'egg - Guild Banker... when the Flight musters... ... if modern military protocols will step aside for a moment to allow me to redefine the occasional terms... Flight Captain - The Highest position in an active task force group, sometimes afforded as an honorific outside of Task Muster for having served in such a position, some Flight Captains have a Standing Charter issued directly by a Guild Estates Ni'kh, such as the CFM Guild Estate, or a Parliamentary Council, such as the High Merchants of Faire Interstellar Council (HMFIC). By convention all Flight Captains, and Captains in a Flight, refer to themselves as The Flight without reference to issued charters... this has served the Ifshnit well as a whole when dealing with others... and allows plenty of room for the classic 'puff up!! puff up!! they hate that!' and 'we didn't do it, it was those guys!!' while playing the 'hidden front organizations' and 'unified appearences' politics the Ifshnit are quite adept at using. Mentioned previously, Ifshnit may hold multiple charters and commissions, and can thus rightly claim any one of those held as need warrants or when pressed. Captain - N'nemo'rrih are the main merchant ship captains given charters of trade-autonomy and first-contact authority, sometimes mustering under a chartered Flight Captain when in a Guild-cooperative or Trade-house. Nei'oh are given respect as veteran spacers, training and ranking over Gneird, who are in turn the equivalent of Junior Officers and Enlisted... Lil'arth must not be confused with modern misconceptions of human slavery, though they have no rights per'se, they are often treated like family by the owning Guild Estate, which is in itself an association of Guilds and Clans, and not abused or mistreated. Larger portions of a ships crew are often filled out by Lil'arth, not even most of which are concerned with elevating their rank, though such possibility is a lure to service in high-risk-vocations. These are the Privates, Custodial Workers, Servants, Laborers, Maintenance Crews, etc... both in black-space and planet-side. In Ifshnit society robots are rare, and placed in a position secondary to Lil'arth, robots are moved aside to make jobs available to Lil'arth first, any Lil'arth with skill is considered superior to any machine no matter how finely crafted that machine, and the value and welfare of any Lil'arth willing to work is placed in higher concern. Any non-Ifshnit living in Ifshnit society is, by technicalities of social custom, counted among the Lil'arth by default, unless afforded a higher privilege by political partnerships, or earning a higher position through service, Lil'arth are afforded more luxury than a non-Ifshnit, in spite of the Ifshnit being quite sociable and accommodating to visiting full fledged outsiders that are not living amongst them. As a result of this social structure and merit awarded clan-bond citizenship, some non-Ifshnit that have placed themselves into service aboard CFM ships have become full Ifshnit Gneirds within the CFM Estates and may be counted among the Freed of Faire, but acceptance into other Ifshnit Worlds, Guild Estates, Trade-houses, Cooperatives, and higher castes of society has been slow at best, and met with violent resistance and silent agression at worst. ...just some more thoughts on the new queries Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
