 May 13, 2011 - 7:03pm | We know that one of the UPF's biggest fortresses lies in the Clarion system. I'd assume that means there should be a noticeable Fleet presence. How do we think the two batches of crewmen get along? Given that I read that Fleet's lower decks seem to be made up a roughnecks, and the RMs hold themselves as something of an elite, Station Police probably have to break up a lot of fights, no? ("I said, gimme a bottle of GOLLYWOG, bartender!") How do the captains and staffs get along? Do their respective system-traffic-control offices keep each other informed of things promptly and professionally? How willing is Fleet to help out with piracy, if they Planaron branch was able to settle in with 4 ships and a dock-rock? Do the Marines suspect Fleet connivance with the pirates or StreelCo? Hmm, I may have added a layer of stuff to my next game.... |
 May 15, 2011 - 9:15pm | good question, first off- KHs campaign info indicates the size and strength of 3 major UPF fleets and their normally assigned patrol stations. It then specifies that there is innumerable patrol groups that start at 1 FF and 2 Assault scouts and go up to cruiser flag ships. I'm betting that ships dock with the fortress and many enlisted dont get passes to actually visit clarion station just to prevent problems. plus if one of the big fleets showed up in White Light I bet some shore patrols get transfered from the fortress to help out I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 16, 2011 - 12:33pm | A severely limited number of liberty passes sounds like a good idea. Still, I bet some would be allowed (esp. Clarion natives), and certainly officers might be permitted to travel to Clarion Station and down to the world. Should I think of Spacefleet like a nearly-modern Navy, like something from the 20th century, or more like the 18th? |
 May 16, 2011 - 1:20pm | My guess is the ships wouldn't dock, they would patrol close to the station (and be available in an emergency) while ferries or patrol boats moved crew, cargo, goods, stuff back and forth from the station. I just don't see a UPF ship docking unless it needs repairs. Even fueling would happen in-system by fuel-ships. |
 May 16, 2011 - 7:21pm | I have been to Singapore a number of times and have always thought it was cool how all around the island are moorings out at sea. Only those ships that are actually loading or unloading are in a port next to the island. All the others use ferries to get to the island. Put Singapore moored ships into google and checkout images or maps and look South of the island. A space station would be much like that with all the ships not actually loading or unloading orbiting at assigned locations waiting their turn to dock. Then even some cargo haulers would be loaded with containers by tender ships that went to and from the station or other ships loading and unloading. They would never dock. As for the feel of the navies I would go with later 19th century and turn or the 20th century. -iggy |
May 18, 2011 - 7:18am | An Issue: KH ships have no artificial grav. I'd think that crews and captains would not want to spend lots of time in 0 grav. so its entirely likely that the ships could maintain a patrol in close proximity to Clarion My read on what is in KHs is that Space Fleet was envisioned as 18th century British navy I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 18, 2011 - 10:31pm | You can't keep gravity patrolling unless you are constantly acc/deccelerating which would require constant burning of fuel. Better to leave a security crew and shuttle over to the station while the ship orbits the station. Crew would rotate through security duty and station leave. -iggy |
May 19, 2011 - 8:06am | Hmm, those might be good reasons for ships to dock to a station (Fleet or otherwise)-- when they are not in service, they can use the station's spin-gravity. |
 May 19, 2011 - 4:18pm | It would be isolated instances at best between the two. CRM craft have no business at Fortress Redoubt, and UPF craft have no business at Clarion Station. The SCC is where most of the mutual encounters may occur... As far as what might be regularly stationed at the fortress, a squadron or two of fighter craft at best, beyond that it would be visiting patrol vessels (Strike Force NOVA, detached duty craft, etc) and consular craft (armed civilian grade ships). |
 May 19, 2011 - 9:15pm | Have to agree. Space is very big, the two stations could be in orbits where they do not even have line of sight on each other. Clarion Station around the planet and Fortress Redoubt in an L5 or further orbit. The supply situation could also play into this. The Fortress would be supplied by the UPFS supply depots and logistic fleet and get nothing from Gollywog directly only what first went indirectly through the UPFS supply system. Think of all the United States and other Nato forces stationed in Afganistan. Nobody is going down to Kabul to buy hamburgers everything is being shipped in. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
May 22, 2011 - 5:25am | Have to agree. Space is very big, the two stations could be in orbits where they do not even have line of sight on each other. Clarion Station around the planet and Fortress Redoubt in an L5 or further orbit. The supply situation could also play into this. The Fortress would be supplied by the UPFS supply depots and logistic fleet and get nothing from Gollywog directly only what first went indirectly through the UPFS supply system. Think of all the United States and other Nato forces stationed in Afganistan. Nobody is going down to Kabul to buy hamburgers everything is being shipped in. yes, and this is because Kabul is such a friendly place, No? I'd expect that consumables are probably purchased through an agent on Clarion- paper and food and etc. Since a major product of Clarrion is urranium it would also figure that the Fortress would become a major fuel depot for Space Fleet in this area of the Frontier. Someone is going to make out nicely by having the government contract to supply the UPF in Clarrion. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 23, 2011 - 11:46am | I agree with Jedion, one of the biggest reasons that a fleet base would be in an inhabited system is so that there will be places to buy supplies from, and places to store them without having to build more orbital storage. |
May 25, 2011 - 2:58pm | Putraack wrote {I agree with Jedion, one of the biggest reasons that a fleet base would be in an inhabited system is so that there will be places to buy supplies from} This is not necessarily true. While it is conveniant for the military mission is always first. UPF Spacefleet has the mission of protecting the Frontier from Internal and External threats in space. The big bases would be located at the major trade routes and invasion routes so they could do their job. Think of it this way why have weather stations in Antartica? You could get the weather from nicer places but in the days before satellites the only way to get the weather was to see it and then radio what was happening and heading toward the major population areas. There was a little known battle for Antartic weather stations during WWII as both Axis and Allied units would set them up and then the other side would try and knock them out before they could report what was happening. Isolated space stations are always good for adventures and there are lots of reasons to isolate them. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
May 27, 2011 - 7:31pm | We just had a Mexican navy training ship in boston and you could see its crew taking in the sites. I think that there would be no reason that ships in port wouldn't let their crews have liberty. I can think of dozens of times that I saw foreign navy crew on the streets of Boston but I've never seen them in a fight. I suspect most avoid drawing the ire of their captain down on them. Incidently, this mexican ship, which is named for the last Aztec emperor and I can't even pronounce its name, was allowing the public to tour it. What was interesting is that one crewman had a white leather shoulder belt with a cutlass- I'm sure it was more ceremonial than practical and he was ducking into a cabin on one side of the ship and emerging out the otherside to avoid talking to people who only spoke English. Guess spoken English trumps a cutlass. At anyrate I've been trying to envision what the Frontier's equiv of a training ship would be. Especially since this ship was a tall ship and powered by the wind. Not sure that a space navy or militia will fool with a chemical drive ship for training its cadets. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 28, 2011 - 6:21am | Putraack wrote {I agree with Jedion, one of the biggest reasons that a fleet base would be in an inhabited system is so that there will be places to buy supplies from} This is not necessarily true. While it is conveniant for the military mission is always first. UPF Spacefleet has the mission of protecting the Frontier from Internal and External threats in space. The big bases would be located at the major trade routes and invasion routes so they could do their job. Right, and I'm talking about a Fleet Base. Its mission would be to serve as a base for the fleet to protect those shipping lines and a major inhabited world. To support the fleet, it would need supplies, and if it's easier to buy them from a civilian world than it is to buy them from a civilian world AND ship them to another system, then I think that's where you want to build the base? |
May 28, 2011 - 6:37pm | Couple more points. One planet can not provide for the needs of the entire fleet. Especially one made up of several different races. Next political considerations always win out. BIG government contracts mean BIG political fights over who gets the money. Yes we could get self sealing stem bolts on Clarion but Senator Pork Barrel arranged for them to be supplied by a factory on his homeworld of Gran Quivera. They are so much better quality there ya know. And what is a couple of jumps instransit that is what we have a merchant service for and it stimulates the economy. Minor point most military budgets work like this = 1/3 salary---1/3 spare parts---1/3 Everything else Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
June 7, 2011 - 4:51pm | I had another thought about UPF vs. CRM tensions. In Jedion's history article, we see that the UPF's greatest hero (Morgaine) is also practically the founder of the CRM. If the RM are the older service, and the "parent" of the SpaceFleet, we might see that traditions and quirks are handed down from the older to the younger, as many of the founding captains and officers came from the RM. In fact, maybe one of the reasons the RM is so small at the start of WoWL (1 frigate, recently adding 2 AS) is that the bulk of the SpaceFleet's cadre came from the RM, and it's only now recovering from that. So there may be a lot of "old boy network" connections between the upper echelons, and perhaps quite a few transfers going on. |
June 7, 2011 - 8:10pm | I think that Space Fleet will have organized with assets from all the systems and races so that the RM will be significant influence in its beginning but a bit of balancing will go on to not appear that Space Fleet will be a "human show" and elements from yazirians others will be brought in. Also there is an interesting dicotomy between what is portrayed in Warriors of White Light module of the RM that makes it look like a tight knit community and what the KHs book says about Space Fleet- having top notch officers and the enlisted being the dregs of spacers swept up from any space port bar. i think that speaks to Space Fleet adopting a policy of grooming high quality carreer officers and making do with short service enlisted As well as it speaks to a bit of a conscious decision to not ape the RM. I think the RM should be the elite militia with its strength being rooted in its tight knit community and the dedication that is bed rock to every being that wheres the uniform. To pay homage to the KHs material Space Fleet has hands down the most elite officers and they are its strength though the enlisted service is always a bit of a liability which wont ever change without changes in how Space Fleet is funded as budget cuts means large numbers of enlisted are prone to being beeched- the philosophy being that they keep the officers and the enlisted are expendable and replacable. One thing I've thought that would be very interesting to play would be a "big ship" game with Space Fleet- where some of the conflict would come from the tension between the officers and the enlisted. PS: I wonder if there isn't a bit of subtle bias against Clarion since its a monarchy, I tried to incorporate that into the timeline article as well. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
June 10, 2011 - 6:34am | J357 writes "KHs book says about Space Fleet- having top notch officers and the enlisted being the dregs of spacers swept up from any space port bar." This comes from the old British Navy where the officers were the supremely well trained while the crew had to be beat to get them back on ships. Remember the original purpose of Marines was to protect the Captain and Officers in case of crew mutiny. As to the other point about Space Fleet coming from CRM we can look back to the American Civil War. In the beginning the South had an advantage in that most their officers were military academy trained and defected to the Southern Cause. This led to initial victories but as the war dragged on experience allowed those who were good to rise in the Northern ranks until the two officer corps were equal. (Very simplictist breakdown but relevant). In the opening phase of the Sathar War with massive ship building and severe losses we would see bad officers quickly getting their ships and crews destroyed while good officers would survive and thrive until Morgaine had an outstanding officer corp but an enlisted corp of whoever they could get to fill a berth since many a good enlisted being was killed by a bad officer while bad enlisted could be inspired and trained by a good officer. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
