 November 28, 2010 - 11:39pm | Refer to: Preface to Zebs Guide to the Humma. The last paragraph discusses the Zeb's Guide statement, “Since the First Sathar War their hatred for the Sathar has run a close second to that of the ifshnit.” I have never read this to mean that the Humma hate the Ifshnit. Rather I read it to mean that the Humma hate the Sathar more than the Ifshnit hate the Sathar and it implies that the Humma and Ifshnit combined hate the Sathar more than any other races hate the Sathar. Am I missing something? -iggy |
 November 28, 2010 - 11:48pm | good question I read it as the active hater was the humma and that the obect of their hatred was the sathar the sentence as written suggest the sathar as second place in hatred. any english majors want to comment on the construction of the sentence? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 November 29, 2010 - 10:54pm | I tend to agree with iggy, that the sentence was badly constructed, and the authors intended for it to read that the Humma hate the Sathar more than the Ifshnit hate the Sathar. It's what English majors like to call a "misplaced modifier."  " 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death." |
 November 30, 2010 - 2:47pm | I agree, it would be difficult to role-play with a party who's races are at each others throats all the time. |
 November 30, 2010 - 3:30pm | I think iggy has it right as well. The Humma don't hate the Ifshnit, both hate the Sathar. I believe the 'that' in 'second to that of' refers to the 'hatred of the Sathar'. So, I read it to say that the Humma's hate for the Sathar is second only to the Ifshnit's hate of the Sathar. Since the Humma's hatred is running close second, that means that the Ifshnit's hatred must be larger. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
November 30, 2010 - 6:53pm | Yup, it is a bad sentence. Even I got it backwards as I tried to write it out as who hated the Sathar more. The Ifshnit hate the Sather more than the Humma hate the Sathar. -iggy |
November 30, 2010 - 7:59pm | Ok, I came to the same conclusion as the rest of you while mulling it over at work. That brings us back to the little statement in the first sentece of the section on Society and Customs: "...steeped in civil war and interspecies war." That said who would you propose the humma have wage interspecies war? Possible options: Ifshnit? osakar? As these two races have obvious home systems in the Rim so any interspecies war with one of them would have been after one of the involved species had attained interstellar travel. My natural inclination is to say that ifshnits were the first of the 3 Rim races to attain space flight as it just feels right to me. There has been a suggestion made of having another species indigenous to the Fokrik system for the humma to wage interspecies war with. If that is the case then we need another race. The race would have to be wiped out by the humma to explain their absence in membership of the Rim coalition or they are so marginalized in humma society to be a non entity. If I was the author of Zebs I would find this a very interesting and compelling story line. However it starts to go where I did not want to go and that is a rewrite not rehab of the material. I feel a strong obligation to stick to one of the existing Zebs races for the interspecies war but I'm open to ideas. Ideas? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 30, 2010 - 10:19pm | And why don't the Sathar fit the bill? They seem to hate them more than the core 4. If the Sathar have been harassing them for any length time it qualifies as interspecies war. -iggy |
December 1, 2010 - 3:02am | I agree with iggy. On the other hand, as we discussed in chat the other night, jedi. they could've fought a couple wars with the Ifshnit, especially if the CFM were running guns to one faction or another during the Humma's own inter-lineage wars, and the other warring factions attacked the craft running the guns. My other initial suggestion was to suggest they fought a war or two with the Yaz, but that seems too obvious. " 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death." |
December 2, 2010 - 2:33pm | And why don't the Sathar fit the bill? They seem to hate them more than the core 4. If the Sathar have been harassing them for any length time it qualifies as interspecies war. Humma history is steeped in civil and interspecies war. The Sathar incursions, however, drove the humma to finaly join the Rim Coalition. I take the above statement to mean the interspecies war predates the sathar and the sathar is what finally forced the humma to get their act together on both a planetary scale (unified under their Hightest One or king) and on a galactic scale - joining the Rim Coalition. If this was a rewrite I'd be up for the sathar. Also with the timeline having the CFM enter the Frontier and bring new of the Rim and their fight with the sathar right after the first sathar war. I know I may be coming off as a bit of a pain in the butt trying to make everything fit nicely and trying to keep all the information thats canon unless there is a problem with it that is insurmountable. I suppose its a side effect of having studied theology. If something is canon then its what you measure other doctrine by, its your foundation. Since I attended a school that had a conservative view of canon scripture (meaning its the foundation and it doesn't change) I suppose I have a bit of an ingrained habit of approaching sf canon with the mindset. So we're back to 3 options: 1. osakar 2 ifshnit 3 another race that evolved in their system that they wiped out 4. another race that evolved in their system and that they nearly wiped out but is not an incredibly small minority and marginalized by the humma At first I would have been against the as yet unkown race that evolve in the same system as the humma as it goes beyond the original material but it also does not go against the original material. to have a "lost' race and ruins and archeaological investigation. This might be a good possibility for an alternate timeline. I have a feeling that the ifshnit in the guise of the CFM may the best candidates for interspecies war but not with the results being that the humma and ifshnit detest each other. The CFM is disgruntled over loss on their balance sheets and the humma view it as a good brawl that they won- though individual houses will have slightly different veiws on it depending on who was importing guns to deal with who and who attacked the CFm to prevent the arms transfers. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 2, 2010 - 4:36pm | Personally I think it best serves this project to do a re-write. The reference to parts of texts may be difficult to pen out and might make a convoluted history or racial description. Here's my opinion; The written description is a guideline, lets write a complete racial description, history, etc. After all its our Revival, we are picking up where TSR left off. Zebulon's Guide Expanded. :-) |
December 2, 2010 - 9:04pm | I'd like to propose a race for the interspecies war angle to have evolved in the Fokrik system (I was rubbing my hands together at the thought of inventing a new race but something else came up) also I don't consider the matter settled on the interspecies war and what species was fighting with the humma to be settled-this is just an idea that did occur to me The artwork of the Boon'Sheh in issue 3 page 32 really looks like something that might have evolved in conjunction with the humma. When you read the brief description of the race and their society and recast them as the 'Native Americans' conquered, marginalized, and relocated from Hum to one of the other inhabitable planets in the system or crowded onto reservations (called preserves) I think this race works amazingly well. details about them even mirror some of our discussion concerning the humma no parent child bond, pride in clan, they're even described as being limited in population Their danger sense, physiology that is built for running and even their -10 STR/STA +10 DEX/RS can be explained as evolutionary pressure of evolving on a planet with the rude,crude, pushy humma. According to w00t; Bills says to just credit him if we use this. I think it would work well with a slight rewrite of its history (not discovered by dralasites and vrusk) though we have to keep their racial weapon- the multi pistol- explain it as handcrafted by artisans in small shops on the preservations and the feature that allows them to use other ammo is an innovation due to supply difficulties they face living in a humma controlled system. They are not part of the Rim but treated as a subject/protected species overseen by the Highest One of Hum- they cannot formally join the Rim or the Frontier as that would set off a political firestorm with the humma. they have tried to gain political recognition but no one wants to piss the humma off as "they're better to have as allies instead of enemies" Post Script: I just whipped up a bit of fluff to go with the above idea its hear for you to review: http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/4481 I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 3, 2010 - 12:06am | According to w00t; Bills says to just credit him if we use this. I think it would work well with a slight rewrite of its history (not discovered by dralasites and vrusk) though we have to keep their racial weapon- the multi pistol- explain it as handcrafted by artisans in small shops on the preservations and the feature that allows them to use other ammo is an innovation due to supply difficulties they face living in a humma controlled system. They are not part of the Rim but treated as a subject/protected species overseen by the Highest One of Hum- they cannot formally join the Rim or the Frontier as that would set off a political firestorm with the humma. they have tried to gain political recognition but no one wants to piss the humma off as "they're better to have as allies instead of enemies. That would work nicely and solve the interspecies war angle. A couple of questions: 1) Do you think at one point, the Humma might have considered the Boon' Sheh tasty and good to eat(as I don't see the hoppers as being particularly picky eaters....) 2) Would there be a radical organization fighting for the rights of the Boon'Sheh, and/or a Boon'Sheh resistance movement on the preserves, similar to the American Indian Movement/the PLO/the ANC, etc.? Possibly even some in the Frontier/Rim smuggling guns and advisors to the Boon'Sheh to turn them into freedom fighters. 3) What of the Humma's attitudes towards the Boon'Sheh. Wouldn't there be some amongst the hoppers who wouldn't think twice about a "final solution" to the Boon'Sheh question, possibly with either Sathar agency or support from "moderates" in the KLC? " 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death." |
December 3, 2010 - 5:38am | @ Will: to answer all your questions: Yes. However if we go with the Boon'sheh then we need a new thread to hash out some details- probably not as many as have been dedicated to the humma- Are we all agreed to go this route? I still want a little bit of dust up between the humma and the CFM- that way any GM who doesn't like the Boon'sheh idea can drop it and the CFM functions as the interspecies war cause and they dont have to come up with much after dropping the Boon'sheh I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 3, 2010 - 6:34am | Are we all agreed to go this route? |
December 3, 2010 - 12:32pm | I hope we can develop a concensus on what to do with the interspecies war issue until then I consider this an open debate if we dont like using the boon'sheh then it could be something made up on the spot (though I think once you reread the boon'sheh article and look at the art work you'll agree that it will be hard to find something that fits as well as they do) or we can go the route of a wiped out lost race and ruins of that race being described on the humma home world- why cause it really does suck to evolve on a world with the humma- they eat anything and fight everything. or we fall back on the idea of conflict with the CFM and by extension the ifshnit. if we do have a marginalized race- I like the "trail of tears" theme of a forced relocation to the 3rd inhabited planet of the system, Larg (the other 2 have high populations larg is moderate) they were very nearly wiped out and are now officially under the protection of the Highest One though some houses and or lineages are not cool with that as they see them as sitting on valuable resources that they are not defending or that the Highest One is using them to squat on those resources till he's ready to oust them and take those resources. There will be some language in the Rim Coalition's constitution or law code that does offer protections for the marginalized race but its not very strong. Their position relies mostly on the good will of the Highest One. There is tension between humma and this race (whatever it may be) With the humma veiwing them as wussies and the race view the humma as oppressors. They do experience a lot of racism form the humma (hey humma take rudeness and crudeness to an art form so they love to heap scorn on this race for the fun of it) Within the race's society there will be some that desire to recover lands lost and some will want to gain autonomy and others will want both. Their preservation schools are not very good but some are sent to be educated in Capella, Zebulon, or even Prengular so that you will find that there are individuals that have tech or even spacer skills though the average skill set from the preservation raised tends to lack in tech and other advanced skills. Its very unlikely they will ever get out from under the thumb of the humma and the humma are resentful of any outside that pokes their nose into this business. its illegal to out right kill one of this race and most humma just dont see any honor to be gained from do it plus having the king come down on them and their house is bad for business too. Anyway that is the direction I would take this. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 3, 2010 - 12:45pm | I like jedi's idea to use the Boon'sheh in this role. I glanced over the race description from the Star Frontiersman and agree that they could be adapted quite easily into this role. They could still be a PC race although fairly uncommon. They just get a large negative racial modifier (say -10 or -15) toward the Humma, while from jedi's last post, the Humma would have only a moderate one (0 to -5) towards them since they are somewhat indifferent. Maybe your PC Boon'sheh is one that has overcome most of the racial hatred and can deal with Humma on an individual basis even if there is still animoisty towards the race. He's "off the reservation" as it is and has a broader outlook on life and recognizes that most of the injustice was in the past and is ready to move on and make his own individual place in the universe. Plus, I'd much rather go with an already (at least partly) developed race then have us create yet another one. Of course, I'm biased and think there are too many races already  . Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
December 3, 2010 - 2:12pm | @ Will: to answer all your questions: Yes. However if we go with the Boon'sheh then we need a new thread to hash out some details- probably not as many as have been dedicated to the humma- Are we all agreed to go this route? Sounds good to me. I still want a little bit of dust up between the humma and the CFM- that way any GM who doesn't like the Boon'sheh idea can drop it and the CFM functions as the interspecies war cause and they dont have to come up with much after dropping the Boon'sheh. Not to mention that it would add another interesting twist for anyone interested in the Boon'sheh angle. With the humma veiwing them as wussies and the race view the humma as oppressors. They do experience a lot of racism form the humma (hey humma take rudeness and crudeness to an art form so they love to heap scorn on this race for the fun of it). These boys is not Humma. These boys is not Humma. Hell, they ain't even ol' timey. " 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death." |
December 4, 2010 - 8:58pm | I checked out the wiki link on the Boon'sheh. This is a very similar race to the Humma. What if they come from the same system as the Humma? What if they were harassed by the Humma who wanted to keep them bottled up. The Humma would do little house raids on their world, but the full Humma society could not organize fully to totally wipe them out. They could never bring themselves genocide. There is no honor in it to the Humma. Anyway, the Humma had system travel and would raid their neibors because they were not other Humma. Someone new to fight! Think like the Vikings in this respect. Then some Dralasite and Vrusk prospectors start poking around the Rim and find the Boon'sheh world. Now the Boon'sheh get to meet another alien race that is not hostile. This complicates the long standing wars of convenience the Humma can have with the Boon'sheh. So I guess I am saying we can work in the Boon'sheh for the interspecies war line. And we can do it by not contradicting the SFman article. The Article does not give the Boon'sheh a homeworld. so there is freedom there. Maybe the Humma took the hostile line with the Boon'sheh then when the Ifshnit came along they tried what came natural to them and tried to push them around too. Of course the Ifshnit pushed back enough that the Humma eventually respected them. The Osakar of course are diplomatic enough that they got out of any big fights with the Humma. -iggy |
December 4, 2010 - 10:17pm | Boon'sheh is OK with me. We can keep 90% of the article and re-write sections as needed. For example, we might want to remove, "Tests performed by Terledrom scientists..." with something else. |
December 5, 2010 - 10:36am | Boon'sheh is OK with me. We can keep 90% of the article and re-write sections as needed. For example, we might want to remove, "Tests performed by Terledrom scientists..." with something else. Even this works out good for me as well. No change needed. -iggy |
December 5, 2010 - 10:42am | Agreed. " 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death." |
December 5, 2010 - 2:15pm | Note I edited the Preface and shortened it I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 December 8, 2012 - 9:04pm | Humma don't hate Ifshnit! After all, they are a convenient football size, good for kicking field goals! PUNT! (And with those legs, I'll bet the Humma can kick pretty far!) |
 December 12, 2012 - 12:08am | I originally took the understanding of both the humma and ifshnit hating the sathar, even though it is stated a little poorly. I always thought too that the interspecies war was between the humma an ifshnit for whatever reason. If we want to redefine it clearly as to the humma verses the boon'sheh, I am good with it too. I think that so far, of the ideas I have read in the thread, Iggy's ideas of the humma raiding the boon'sheh homeworld like the vikings of old would be a more logical/plausible take. Having them come into conflict with the CFM in the beginning seems also natural. The humma raiding could also be extensive enough to keep the population down on the boon'sheh world to keep them marginalized. Then the sathar came and the humma backed off the boon'sheh with this new enemy to deal with and the CFM began to deal with them which could be a conflict issue between the CFM and the humma? Or before the sathar came the CFM tried to get involved and the humma and ifshnit went to war over it then the osakar came in a brokered a treaty for peace and as this new peace began the sathar conveniently showed up and forced all of them to come together like the core four(Frontier) did? The boon'sheh would still be rathar insignificant, as they are not a space fairing race at this point. This would allow the gm to include them or not. |
December 13, 2012 - 9:10pm | OK... so then what if you don't use the Boon'sheh in your campaign? |
December 14, 2012 - 6:16am | OK... so then what if you don't use the Boon'sheh in your campaign? Then dust up with the ifshnit has to stand in to cover the comment about interspecies war. Or you have to invent a dust up between the osakar and the humma or you have to invent another race to inhabit the already congested Rim for the humma to have inter species war with. Those are your options. Well, I guess you could just ignore the statement in Zebs too.However, I like war. War is interesting. It gives you something to talk about so i prefer to keep war in the history. The Rim and the Frontier are already congested enough that I didn't want to add yet another improbable sapient species but figured that if evolution already started the process of life on one planet that it might be more probable that multiple species evolved there much like Cromangnum man and Neanderthals. I happen to notice that the Boon sheh looked simmilar to the humma in body structure and elements in their racial description resonated well with the humma. The humma are pushy and violent while the boonsheh are twitchy and ready to run. Its a good pairing. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
