 November 9, 2010 - 7:57pm | Out of curiosity, has anyone ever considered at what point does Star Frontiers stop being Star Frontiers. Is it when the rules are changed (as WOTC did when they added the core 4 races into D20 future) or is there something else, beside game mechanics, that makes Star Frontiers special? "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
 November 21, 2010 - 3:47pm | @ jedion: Actually, if you go with Zeb's timeline, many of the major UPF worlds are hundreds of years old. The earliest listed is Fromeltar, discovered by the drals in 302 pf. Assuming a subsequent colonization of Terledrom around that time, that would make the colony 413 years old. As to unified planetary governments: it makes things easier. Any GM can certainly make a world with numerous governments (like Earth), but its easier for just about all players if there is one main governing body for a single world. Its like the discussion about "one race, one culture"; its just easier. Planetary governments can be as simple or as complex as GMs want them to be. The only question is how much work do you want to do? Long live the Frontier! |
 November 22, 2010 - 3:57pm | If you go by the Zeb's timeline, the Volturnus adventure took place over 100 years before the sathar first entered the Frontier...which is a paradox of the Volturnus adventure itself. Either that or Volturnus & Anker were colonized more than 100 years before the second expedition and Colonel Jameson died of old age rather than injuries incurred by the Star Devil  |
 April 7, 2011 - 8:31am | An industry insider speaks about this topic, with a discussion forum. The basic question has been asked for many games, and it is a case by case baisis. Player impression (which is strongly influnced by what 'version' or 'micro-era' within a setting the player was introduced.), is the opinion factor, that makes it a case by case for the player. System/setting cohesiveness/continuity, the general style of the elements that interact within the game and how integrated they are with each other, and game play. Is it sweeping setting changes that make it something different, emphaticly I say yes. This is the most obvious item that makes it no longer what it was and turns it into something new, though alone it isn't always enough. 'off-screen hygine' or purchase thier Midnite Quicki-grub Packs... it all adds up. The game changes companies, and sweeping changes follow to make it easier on the company to produce new content, and the entire system melds into the new system owned by the new company. Enough little changes in barely used areas can alter the bigger picture in large ways, and then there is allways the question if the new rules 'support the setting'... since they may have not evolved with the setting, and been built on mutual reinforcement. System and setting grown together, evolves together, is entertwined together... change one and you effect the other, sometimes in unpredicted... even unpridictable, ways. Short statment is, it all matters for me. Introducing mechs, would shift it toward a space-mech game, and wouldn't feel like the setting I am familier with. It would take on a Battletech, and even more Robotech, feel. The Sathar (to me) already come across as a 'Zentradi' archetype. There are already three (or more) political groupings, and multiple corporations ready to start attacking each others resource and industrial centers. Just adding mechs would start to shift the focus, megacorps would build them for the military, but they frequently stockpile and use what they build, and Rouge Governments and rulers are probably more common than anyone is admiting. Consider how often such-and-such noble, plays the characters in a coup against, so-and-so governor in the typical campaign.... at least back in the 80's and 90's, when I could find SF game-logs and people to recount thier bardics... it was a major theme in most games. There were, by recount, fewer 'bug-hunts', 'worm-wars', and 'crypt-diggings', being played or discussed, than there were political intrigues, social upheavals, and corporate manuverings. It's just the kewl death scene, and big fights with boses, that get glorified and recounted more often. Then add mechs.... To me it would take on a Battletech feel, with a looming Robotech flavor. Opening a regulary traversable route to the homeworlds, would alter balences of power in the frontier, bring speicies/racisim back into a forefront (tho' this exists in small manageble amounts from my perspective, adding a bit of dramatic interaction, already.), and heavily change the focus of society in the frontier. It would loose the on-our-own frontier element, that reinforces the inter-species interplanetary cooperation, a whole new series of internal conflict would arise if the populace could 'return-home' and/or gain support against the (Sathar and other) great local threats. would make for a whole divergent era, and no longer feel like the frontier, but might be less likely to change the feel than including mechs, if it wasn't too comonplace, and attention do the details of long distance travels were considered, so interstellar speeds didn't get too out of hand. Small change, large shift... Large change, small shift.... Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
April 8, 2011 - 6:37pm | I think one of the bigest problems with a significant portion of the gaming community are the ones who say that if the game evolves beyond what is in the rulebooks, and this is true for every game, whether it's D&D, Gamma World, or Star Frontiers, that you are no longer playing the game as it was intended. To be fair just as the characters, and challenges of the game evolve over time, so should the setting itself. The creators of the game even state that gaming groups should explore new worlds and take on bigger and bigger challenges as they defend the Frontier way of life. Even though some among us may not like it Zebulon's guide showed us an evolution of the Frontier, by expanding it out to the Rim, updating and offering us new technologies, and giving us a whole new group of political extremists to fight. In my opinion the game has to evolve or it becomes stagnant, and in a perfect world there should be no one telling any gaming group that their version of the game is invalid because it has become something other than what is in the rulebooks. Every divergent Star Frontiers camaign should be celebrated because no matter how different it is it still keeps alive the game we all love. From personal experience all to many times when I go to a game store and discuss any of my games, I usually get horrified looks because of the extensive modifications that I make to the game, and the all too familier "you're not playing the game right' always creeps in somewhere in the conversation, and sometimes I want to say "Maybe you're not playing the game right, because you haven't made the game your own." I think that as long as the base elements of the game are there (The core 4, the UPF, the Sathar, etc), that having Mechs in the game, or having Sesheyans, Fraal, Weren, or even Illithid, Vulcans, or Sleestack each Star Frontiers campaign is just as legitimate as the next. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
 April 8, 2011 - 8:37pm | I agree, one campaign i was playing started around 1984 and played until 1987 when all traces of SF products disappered from the shelves of our rural city game stores. Since there were no products for SF continuing out TSR we decided to house rule new rules systems and create our own game universe. After all nothing new was coming out of TSR. That game campaign which lasted until 1990 when i went off to college became the basis for the fictional universe I know use in my comic book setting Titan Rising. The game setting of course has elvolved with inspirations such as BSG, firefly, the matrix, etc. that have given new inspirations as to how to evolve the setting. It was my choice to relocate my setting to Earth but originally it was on a Frontier world and ships were originally SFKH starships. So yes I understand the need for imagination and freedom in the game. Mechs in their truest form didnt really fit into my gaming universe but that doesnt mean that they wont fit into yours or someone elses. Some folks love the mentalists stuff, again not my cup of tea but just as vaild for the game. Thats why we make rules systems, not that everyone has to use them, but so people can use them. I know a lot of people gave me grief over my optional teleportation rules, but i didnt make the rules for everyone, I dont even know if i need teleportaion in my game settings, but its nice to have a rules system for them if i do need them. |
April 9, 2011 - 9:21am | Well stated... it is a mater of taste, and yours is as valid as mine.... simple and succinct. Noone should feel forced to bend to an element they don't like. We look for canon setting so we have some commonality of expectation for the fictional environment, in discussions and in games. While there is a key in that it is fictional, it is also key that it is setting, and changing the fiction or the setting, changes the expectation. As much as changing the bell-curve used for resolutions in the system changes what can be expected as possible, so does the elements fundmental to the fictional setting. If mentalists arn't part of the canon, I have certain expectations about the psyche and capabilities of my character and others, if it is made cannon my perception changes and there are expectations possible that were not there before, and can change the way I approch the environment. This does not require me to be aware of the extent of my expected changes, they are still there, and that alters how the game 'feels'.. In fact mentalists effect me little personally, I assume the possability on some level in reality, but it does effect the extent to which I can expect it, and whether that might be in my characters background in a free form development of character, the likelyhood of other characters having such ability, and whether my character would be aware of such things or not. If I know I am playing Starwars, I know I have at least heard of Jedi, and may have some unknown latent ability, if I know that I am playing Star Trek, I know that people are frequently tested and either have it or don't, if I know that I am playing Babylon 5, I know nearly everyone is tested, and most people who have it will be required to show some sign that they do, either for the etiquette or by law. Thus by simply being able to say Psionics work like Babylon 5, I am presented with an understanding of the environment quickly, and can decide if it suits the style I am in the mood for, without lengthy explanations, or suprises of sudden common environmental aspects, I likely should have known about sooner. OTOH if suddenly in Star Trek, a Jedi like character appears as an NPC, it really means something quite diffrent than it would in Star Wars, and I am likely to react with the due surprise (as long as it dosn't happen every episode, and become common), and questions, that encounter is likely expected to have, and the scene dosn't fall flat. I feel this is important in all aspects of both setting and system, so that there is a structure of commonality from which to measure the changes. Before my cat turnd off my computer, I also wanted to mention 'Era preference'... Star Wars as an Example, has three quickly recognizable eras, and several not so well known. Viable heroic archetypes in one era, are not nescesarily viable in another, and it matters. During the Empire Era, playing a Jedi is vastly different than playing a Jedi in any other era, so is playing a Jedi in the New Jedi Order, the decision on whether you want to play one may depend on what era you are playin in, because just being one has diferent consequences. and someone who prefers one era over another, should be able to do so, without feeling like just because the timeline has advanced, that that preference is voided over what might be popular currently. The Starwars Eras being a good show of this abandoned-prefrenced-players over popular-era-players, because the popularity of a given era hasn't been liner to the timeline, and even frequently revisits eras. Yet people who prefer a particular era, are frequently left out and even chastized as not 'keeping-up' with the current 'pop-focus' era. No matter what era you might play or prefer, it is all Starwars, but the sub-catagories are important. Another example is Forgotten Realms and the rich flavorful setting that is canon there, to say you want to play in Forgoten Realms - Fearun, or Mazteca you can have a pretty secure foundation for what that means. But if somone shows up to play Forgotton Realms, and discovers that the GM/Group has played for fifteen years a long series of rich campaigns that have advanced the timeline nearly 500years and now there is a Unified Sovereignties of Ars'Mazteca that has started to come into being a great global power, Fearun guilds entered massive power struggles, and have degenerated the origional governments suplanting them in some places with massive Guild Conglomerates, with factions like the Thayan Armed Services and Securities (Thayan-AS..) guild holding as much power over treasuries, investments and professional security serveces as the Wakeen Ordained Vaults and Industries Amalgemation(WakOVIA) has ove tresuries, investments, and major craft industries, or the Sho Entertainment and Globes Association that wolds the world market on the production and maintenance of syncronized-projection-towers and directed-reception-crystal-balls which they use to broadcast world news from field corespondants... hmm, is this still Forgotten Realms, or is it Realms of 'Punkcraft? Sounds fun-rock'n-awesome and danc'n dwem'rific, fer shar!!! but if I want to play Forgotten Realms, this isn't going to satisfy, and I can't fault someone else for feeling like it is an abuse of the canon material they are fond of, or, never having been there for the played advancment of the campaign, and the timeline that supports these changes, to feel like I am playing it wrong. It isn't Forgotten Realms, it's My Known Realms, and I am (I feel) obligated to bow to the common ground first, and hold my own love for the memories of my game as anecdotal, in the consideration of others. I want to still enjoy the 'classic canon' era, without having an advanced timeline forced on me, I would like to have a detailed advanced-timeline era canon to support others who might be interested in an alternative. I would never want to see one dominate, and force out the other, I would start bashing my own creation if it did. my 2 copper bits, with a ceramic on the side. For the benifit of knowing, I prefer to think of SF mentalisim as Star Trek in Distribution, Starship Troopers in Effect, and Babylon 5 in Society Reaction, and therefore, witnessed once or twice in a season, likely with forwarning, and rarely accepted on a PC without some effect on persona development, and/or a required patron/benefactor, if it is seen/noticed at all. That, to me, seems to be the canon take on the subject, and I see no reason to disagree. use it or don't, it may come up occasionally in major meta-plots, but has no reason to directly effect your game if you don't want to use it, and witnessed powers have little long term potential and could be purely coincidence, and be only viewd as supernatural in the beliefs of the minority. No wizards, no jedi, perhaps the occasional culturaly excentric species, unsual mysterious character, or cross culture religious quandry. If you want to ratchet it up, or elemenate it entirely in your game feel free, i'd just like to know where things differ up front. this is why I may be found arguing against something I would use, in favor of respect to canon for the whole community, and aiding someone in designing an element I would never consider for myself, because i feel it is deserving of it's own merit. Mutual respect for both sides, when both sides are equally valid. Om Om Om Om Namah Shivaya Gurave Om Om Om Om..... Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
April 9, 2011 - 9:46am | On the subject of campaigns, I just wanted to say that over a long and fruitful 30 or so years of gaming, I have had the good fortune of running several very long and successful campaigns, but always creating the campaign settings from scratch (or mostly from scratch) rather than depending on the established campaign settings of the game system. During these long years I've had to abandon at least one setting which was one of the greatest wedges between myself and my players, because it was one of their favorite settings, (an Alternate Marvel Universe), but I felt that the campaign had become an arms race that was going in a direction I didn't want to explore, so I shut it down in a very spectacular way which offered no chance of resurrecting it. When I lost my gaming group 7 or 8 years ago and started working in earnest on a whole new set of rules One of my decisions was to retcon all the campaign worlds I had been using up until now, and start the settings new with the new rules, during this time I began doing extensive research into what were the cannon settings and adventures like for these settings, and discovered that there were many gems I had overlooked all these years because I wanted to do my own thing. I discovered some very awesome modules that had been written about settings like the Realms, or Greyhawk that in my gaming youth I scoffed at because I was under the impression that I could create just as good or better materials, and In Star Frontiers I found a Frontier I had never explored, or gven a chance because it wasn't my Frontier. So now I have to envy all those people who have ventured to Vulturnus, or beat the Malthar. Of course As I work on my new gaming materials in the hopes of one day rejoining the gaming world as an active participant I'm still working on a lot of original material, but will also be adapting a lot of those gems for my own personal games (the mechanics will be adapted for my system, and the locations may change because they will have to occur within my campaign worlds, but the storylines will remain largely as they were intended). I think that because I missed out on what was canon I can now appreciate it, and yet I still believe that Star frontiers or whatever game you are playing is just as valid whether you use the setting as described or mod it for your group, as long as you have fun with it. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
April 10, 2011 - 2:27pm |
but, once you do so, you have become one of those established canon settings, and can be scoffed at, for someone will feel they can do it better... and thats the nature of art, and atists.. pride and elevated self worth, lol, the tradition established over the millennia, since the first person looked apon the divine creation about them and said... 'pah, i could do that better!'..... and the divine said, 'and thou shalt beget from your creations, children just like you!'... also known as 'the mothers curse', proof once again that the divine is feminine.  Again, I think you have shown you can compare. good work, and I tip you an atta-boy! (Free Market, rpg reference. for a newer gem, many may have missed, and scoffed at on inital review.)
I whole hartedly agree, said with far less declination of verbosity than my tractate monologue.  Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 April 10, 2011 - 7:03am | I agree with the basic arguement of your campaign is your campaign and its vallid for you and your group. Very true, one of the points of game play is to have fun and if you're having fun.... There is another angle to this though- in creating material for the fan zine and to a lesser extent doing the same on this site- its my opinion that being aware of what is canon and not straying to far from it is important for audience acceptance. We have a diverse community spread all over the world and we all come together around this game that we love. The community probably represents 1oo's if not thoughsands of alternate worlds in mirror universes that mirror each other in that they all started with the same beginning (Alpha Dawn) but have grown and developed beyond. My point about who the audience is this: we come together around a core (the canon material) because for some reason we love it. The fanzine is just that, a fanzine, and that means fan material is its bread and butter. but when there is fan material that departs from my own sensibilities then I typically ignore it and I suspect that is true for everyone else. It is possible that your wildest imagination that you bring to the SF universe will be universally acclaimed by the community, true but as spiritcyote noted there is typically an entrenched attitude of "you're departing from what was intended". I'm not saying that attitude is correct just that it exists. So if you're producing material to share with the community; which is typically only done in 1-2 locations on the web- the SFman and this site (if were honest these 2 sites are the beach head of new ideas, material and activity in the SF universe); you should consider your audience if you desire wide acceptance. Knowing that there is a somewhat strong undercurrent of "we dont like Zebs because of the Pets in space" then offering an alien race that is little more then an earth animal, given arms and legs and all the personality characteristics of that animal will probably not be so well recieved. It doesn't make your idea wrong just marginal to the community as a whole. First thing I consider in writing for the fan zine is what has gone before, what is canon. Then I build off of that and extrapolate logic consequences of that canon material and make every effort to harmonize all the canon material as well as anything new I create. I fully expect that not everyone will be down with my material but the fact that I've paid homage to the canon ensures the widest audience possible for my material. My focus on the canon (which goes beyond the AD and KHs books to mining all the material from Polygon & Dragon magazines as well as modules) i do typically go beyond the canon but usually with an eye to maintaining the flavor of the original. This is a conscious choice on my part to cater to what I believe is the widest audience. Not every artist does this and artwork that is not well recieved when its produced is sometimes acclaimed after the artist's death. The same goes for The SFman- perhaps the material that is panned now will recieve greater acclaim 20 years from now and its still SF even now but for wide acceptance I recommend being aware of who your audience is. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
April 10, 2011 - 9:20am | vie à la Frontière! (snaps UPF salute in Clarion tradition du régiment) I consider the Star Frontiersman, to be Canon II: "The living sequal!" Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
April 10, 2011 - 9:53am | Pets in space? of what pets are you referring to? The Humma are not pets in space in my opinion but maybe I'm in the minority on this as I am on so many other things because I have a great love of pushing the envelope on everything. if any game system suffered from pets in space syndrome it was not Star Frontier's but it's chief rival Traveller, even if they hand waved an explanation by saying that the Aslan, and Vargr (or whatever) were uplifted animals created by a mysterious ancient race. The Idea however of using quasi-animals as space races however is one that has been tied to classic science fiction since the pulp era, and because Star Frontiers more so than Traveller seems to lend itself greatly towards that era (which I strongly suspect was one of the reasons it was cancelled so TSR wouldn't have two science fiction games competing for the same market share) the uplifted animal motiff fits extremely well in the Star Frontiers setting. The other reason for the animals as aliens concept is the same one as why humanoids are so prevelent in most science fiction games. Players are more comfortable playing a race that they can on a subconscious level identify with, and the humanoid form allows the player to instinctively understand the limits of the form based on his own knowledge of his own capabilities because he shares the physical shape of the race he is portraying. With animals as aliens a short cut is created allowing the player subconsciously to relate what he knows or assumes would be the temperment of a real world animal of the type at the core of the race in general and translate that into how he role plays that character. This is often not possible whenplaying a truly alien race which is why the more bizzaar aliens are either marginally used by players, or are left to the referee to either use as window dressing or as challenges for his players. With Star Frontiers we have two examples of the above, the Yazirians are humanoids (see I didn't go with the uplifted animal motiff like you probably thought I would). and even though they have glider wings, players like them because they follow a symmetry of form that they can identify with without thinking about it (and Yazirians are just too cool). The Vrusk on the other hand are insectoid, and though we don't have Vrusk-like insects on earth (I know someone will point out that preying mantises and grasshoppers have a similar body structure) but we subconsciously put certain traits on insects, like their industrialness, and hive mind, which gives us short cuts to portraying this race. It is my opinion that given the choice between portraying an uplifted animal like the Humma, or playing a bizzaar silicon based, ovoid lifeform that has one manipulative retractable tentacle and moves across the ground through muscle contraction and possesses microfiliments that allow it to percieve microchanges in air density, and communicates by violent spasms of its body, that most players would hands down pick the Humma. But that's my opinion...I could be wrong. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
April 10, 2011 - 2:30pm |
Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
April 10, 2011 - 6:29pm | I only site the pets in space since its been a broad brush painting of Zebs used round about here in the past that is only to say that some people dont like the idea. To be fair to Zebs, which has numerous, problems that dont really need to be rehashed here in this thread, but the artwork for the races didn't really endear them to some people The ifshnit looked like AD&D dwarves in space but the artwork didn't match the racial discription in anyway other then being short. The humma artwork, which was only early concept art for a project rushed to market like Zebs was, interpreted the humma as space roos as well. Latter, fan works of art on the humma as well as other work on them in the Zebs project has probably done them more justice. So while I dont really agree that zebs races are pets in space, I recognize that it has been something raised as an objection. And for myself I'm not a fan of races that do fit pets in space- whether cats, wolves, lions, dogs, etc. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
April 10, 2011 - 11:49pm | Well...you know me...One of the chief antagonistic race in the core of the expanded Frontier happen to be an example of what would be considered "Pets in space" namely the Adrainian species, who evolved from a predatory feline race on their homeworld, and some Humans would say have a passing resemblence to terren Tigers. Of course over the years of using this race in my campaign I've never had my players object to them, and in fact several players were dismayed when they were made a Referee only race, because they were so well liked, because their strengths and attitude made them perfect foils for the Vrusk. However I do understand your dislike for these types of races, because they are in a sense creative shortcuts, allowing a referee to create a race in short order without expending a lot of energy creating a new and facinating species from the ground up. However with all the work that some referees have in creating adventures for a game, (creating a cast of adversaries, a well thought out story, exotic locations, possibly a few whole new creatures, puzzles, skill challenges, the odd rule for situations not in the books but needed for the adventure, special equipment, and the list goes on and on) shouldn't they be allowed some short cuts? I think that if the race is well thought out and offers something interesting and/or unique to the game it shouldn't matter if the race resembles an enlightened animal, or not. But everyone should have preferences and their own styles of play, which is one of the great things about this game of ours. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
April 11, 2011 - 4:41am | whether cats, wolves, lions, dogs, etc. monkeys, worms? pietri dish growths? people in japan keep mantis like people in england keep gerbiles, but both tend to think the other a strange pet... one or two.. yeah ok seriously, I agree, the Yaz are close enough, and that kinda dosn't leave room for more.. But It's still eaiser to say.. They look like'a kangaroo with a somewhat feline head, eats with a long sticky tounge like a humming bird or frog, has no pouch, and is a hermaphroditic monotreme. They naturally tend to be scavengers, eating whatever can be put in thier mouth, and can subsist on rotten carion like vultures. (Two explorers, overheard conversing in a rim world tavern...) What!?! they look like vultures now? Umm no... they have a digestion like vultures... they look like a cat, c'ept fer them-their big froggy legs... Ok so they are cat-frogs?! Oh ner'mind... service! nutha round! on his tab! Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
April 15, 2011 - 11:26am | I could probably roll with a well thought out race that seemed from its artwork to be a little bit of a pet in space but a race of dog man that ACT exactly like a lab!- very friendly to and loyal to humans! Why? their an alien race- or crusteceans that have an exact mirror image society as 19th century British society? No really my cup of tea. I really liked the core 4 aliens as they really felt alien without the feel of, "Oh they just made X animal into an alien" I"m suprised that no one has responded to my posts, "Ok big boy, since you're so opinionated, why dont you show us how its done?" Truth be told I have done one and its been delayed awhile going into the SFman due to artwork issues. Partly inspired by stuff from david weber novels and partly inspired by my own personal critiques of all the fan submitted races in the SFman and of the Zebs races. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
April 15, 2011 - 11:44am | Okay big boy, since you're so opinionated, show us how its done.... Of course lets not bring up the delayed SFman, because everyone should understand that it's delayed because those who are producing it, at no cost to us by the way, have other more pressing things to deal with, but I know we will see a new issue soon. Anyway Jedion I have been a fan of your work since I got here, and even though occassionally we disagree (you like to play it close to the original material, and I'm the opposite), and sometimes I wish I could bring you over to the darkside because I could just imagine where you'd take some of my ideas, but we need differences of opinion and differing ideas and mindsets to make a community grow, otherwise we'll stagnate. I have several races hopefully awaiting their debut in the Sfman too, and as my work progresses and we get further away from the Frontier, the races may become more alien seeming (there is a method in my madness it seems) but are the races at the core of what makes Star Frontiers what it is? Or is there something else that if we go beyond makes the game no longer Star Frontiers? "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
April 15, 2011 - 8:20pm | I've seen a dog like race that wanted to be humans best friend, and junked it, but what is a British Crustecean and were did they come from? I missed that one. I agree compleatly, other than the Yazirian being Apes, the first time I opened a SF book and saw the aliens I got excited, these were definatly ALIEN and not people in rubber suits! I have no problem with acknowledging the necessity for hollywood to resort to tried and true formula in Humanocentric phylosophy and ease of effects, but at the time I had gotten the game, even the litterary works were suffering from such base 'dehydrated plot in a can, just add humans' lack of imagination, I had high hopes for SF, and was seriously disapointed (though not suprised) to see it fail. The reasons it failed are many and varied, and only partially due to the system and setting themselves, many other games that have had similar aproachs have suceeded in thier own niches, even in spite of detractors suggesting they are dead. I have to say, the Core Four (and the Sathar makes Five) are a large part of what makes the Frontier be the Frontier, at least for me. The focous as it was on exploring and survival in a maner akin to Robinson Cruesoe on Mars, Hard(ish)-Sci-fi with a bit of a Space-Opera, and mostly focused toward Space-Western (indeed before the term was even in use, there is a long spiel about The Frontier being like the old-west frontier in one of the books, and a brief suggestion that Boot Hill, and Gamma World, be adapted untill they can publish a better example.... someday), and Military style stories with the influence of Rocky Jones, Flash Gordon, and Buck Rogers, all mentioned in the bibliography section of one of the printings. There was offered some support, and a half-promise that there would be more adventures published at some later date for more private-sector styled campaigns. I recall comentary expressly stated in no uncertain terms, the idea that they would not ever be doing a dungeon-crawl-in-space adventure, though alien artifacts and ruins were considered to be a possability, there was a specific intent to avoid these, lest it become the sole focus of all later works, and because of the acknowleged ease of cranking out a doz. dungeons. All of what was intended, being very carfully considered and part of the origional concept, is what makes it SF to me, what made it stand out as something I wanted to see more of, made it different and unique... makes it Star Frontiers. I suppose it is easier to say what is SF for me, than to say what is not, untill I see something I wouldn't be able to reconcile within the framework, or a specific example is asked about something that I already have a reason to discount, or have atempted and readily know it's effect. The question seems to be too abstract in that way... Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
April 15, 2011 - 6:10pm | issue 16 the Laavim are crustaceans or described like that much of their society reads like 19th century britian; The race shows obvious investment in making it alien, yet to me the culture reads like something from David Copperfield. Because I recognize it as 19th century British I dont like it; if the author had researched something obscure like the culture of the south pacific head hunter or maybe the culture of the people who built Ankor Wat and copied those cultures I suspect I would have had a greater affinity for the laavin since I would never have fully recognized those cultures. I think the point is that just creating a race for the sake of creating a race is not going to produce the content we need. It seems to be the in thing to do- everyone sooner or latter creates a SF race, even me, though mine languishes in the submission cue waiting for art and issue 17 to come out. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
April 15, 2011 - 7:05pm | I think that I've submitted the first four of a series of races that exist outside the Frontier because I wanted to give something back to the community more than just to do the let me create a race thing, and each of those races has a long history of being a part of my own expanded Frontier campaign. Of course I went beyond the usual by adding a few extra touches to those articles but I'm not going to spoil anything here. I do agree though that a race should definately offer something into the mix or it is just window dressing. I have seen some very well designed races in the SFman, and some that I didn't care for, but I applaud the effort because at least it shows that there are people out there who are trying to keep our game alive. When I asked the question back when this topic was created I made it a broad statement because for each of us Star Frontiers means different things which is a good thng, and where we draw the line between what we feel is acceptable in our Star Frontiers is also a personal thing. No one's opinion is less valid than the next person, but in looking at the whole of the kind of responses here those of us who have a mind to create content for the game can kind of figure out where the boundry lines to what most people accept in their Star Frontiers games so that our efforts will be useful to the broadest possible audience specially if we are submitting articles to the SFman. It is also very interesting to see just how broad a spectrum of opinions people have about Star Frontiers and sometimes I've found things that I never focused on in the game or overlooked by reading someone's post or opinion. so I hope this discussion continues. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
May 2, 2011 - 2:44pm | Ok, I'll have to look it up. I had a crustecean I was working on, but I wasn't basing on any particular culture, I base my alien cultures more on the biological imperitives evolving into a system of social interactions, and then go from there, I may note my observations about correlations to recognizable cultural archetypes if I notice them, but I typically don't take such correlations as meaning a 'strict-adherance' to a given culture, rather observations of convenience made by others. There is always the diversity option however, just because such correlations were made about the dominant or most observed culture, doesn't mean the whole species adheres to that type, this has been done with the Yazirians, where not every cultural group adheres to the 'cultural tradition' of the Family of One, though it is a monopoly over the culture on Hentz. The cultural diversity of the Yaz is a prominent part of their history, and the main issue that Hentz has with all the other Yazi colonies, for example. Observing an overview of the Yazi culture, one could describe the Family of One, and all of the adherent tribes and clans, as structurally and philosophicaly similar to the 'living deity' of Imperial Japan, with a 'global' organization reminicent of the Vatican. Someone else could observe the correlation, as what one would imagine of an Ancient Egyptian Dynasty, with the far reaching powerbase, and social impact, typical of a late 1900's Techno-cult, of the North-western Quadrant on Old Terra. Altho' most of the other Yazi on the colonies, frequently speak of the Family of One's cultural monopoly over society in derogatives, a Yaz is unlikely to sit idle, should similar tone ever be taken by those of another species on the matter. Species pride often still comes before clan and cultural identity. "I may be able to drown the devil in the river, but you don't have the right to speak poorly of my brother."; has become a translation of a phrase born on Yast. Yea, just to give an example... I made a bunch of that up on the spot, and it isn't on topic.... It's quick and easy to identify in recognizble cultures, but more detail than that, is usually needed during play. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
April 15, 2011 - 8:48pm | Clarifying the intent of the post, alleviates my mind some. I was feeling no matter how hard I tried, I could not feel like I had actually answerd the question, causing me to respond repetedly, and with what (to me) seems inconsistent answers. I realized (a couple posts back there) that I had effectivly been trying to give an honest solid answer to an abstract question.... I had a flashback to a really long wooden staircase, and an old man on top of a mountain serving funny tea, only speaking to me to ask me strange monosyllabic questions like... 'why?' ...mmmhhOhhmmm... It is what it is untill it is definable as something else, and then it is something else and not what it was. If what it becomes is adaquatly reconcilable with what it was, then it has evolved and through continuity still is, if it is something so different that no comparison can be made with what it was, then it has abandoned what it was for what it has become. ...mmmhhOhhmmm... I have been enlightened, by both internal and external vibrations, emanating origins and migrations, correspondent to the nexus of this discussion. (_ _) Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
May 2, 2011 - 2:41pm |
forked for focus I completely agree with the idea that this is a personal question, and that it is a good thing that we all bring our own unique flavor to the table, and of course everyone at the table deserves the same respect for their view, and equal 'spotlight time' during the game. Unfortunately, it is not a perfect world, but should at least be attempted. I've forked for a set of more specific questions, that seem to me, to be a way of clarifying for those that might have some difficulty with the broad question, and need to think about the 'positive oriented' what it is, before answering a 'negative oriented' what it isn't, to achieve a foundation to base a response on. hope this is useful... Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 April 3, 2016 - 12:16am | With possible exception to the electric vehicles. Electric car tech is pathetic at best right now, in 40 years we've only managed to add another 20mph to the top speed and another 20 miles worth of range. SF ground cars go almost as fast as modern electric cars, but I'll bet the farm along with vital parts of my anatomy that NONE of us will live to see the day that an electric car can go over 600 miles (1000km) on a single charge. As it stands, we have to wait eight hours to charge up a car in order to go 80 miles. That 286 mile trip from Los Angeles to Las Vegas? Forget 4-6 hours depending on traffic in a gas powered vehicle, that becomes a four day trip in an electric car. You can ride a bicycle there faster.
Just as an aside, what a difference 5-6 years can make, eh? We now have EVs that can cruise at 55MPH and get just under 300 miles off a full charge and a 2 hour recharge time with the right equipment at home and a 30min half-charge time on the road using public "supercharger" stations. Which makes SF vehicles look even wimpier, really. At the rate we're going, we'll catch up to SF vehicles (at least ground ones) within 10-15 years. |
April 3, 2016 - 2:13am | Just as an aside, what a difference 5-6 years can make, eh? We now have EVs that can cruise at 55MPH and get just under 300 miles off a full charge and a 2 hour recharge time with the right equipment at home and a 30min half-charge time on the road using public "supercharger" stations.
Tesla? For the six figure prices they're asking you can buy a gas powered vehicle and use the savings to buy fuel for the life of said vehicle, and still have enough change to refuel the operator as well. ;) Yes, they exist...but they still have a ways to go before becoming feasible. That "30 minute half charge" time conversely translates to half the range, meaning those supercharger stations need to be realistically posted at 100 mile intervals. That's a lot of stations, and they would have to charge a premium to keep them in business, because if just one of those stops working every EV on that route gets stranded at that location. The gasoline engine will be safe for some time now. ;) |
April 3, 2016 - 9:19am | Tesla is introducing a ~$25,000 version, steep, but nowhere near as bad. My point is that your 2010 post was what was at that time. We've made more improvement in the last 6 years than in the 40 years previous. Technology makes unexpected leaps like that. Same with fields like computing. We went from huge, room-filling mainframes to the first desktops in about 25 years (50s- mid/late 70s). We kind'a went into a holding period with only incremental improvements until some time in the 90s, then look what's happened in the last 25 years. Look what's happened in the last 2-3 for that matter. Same with cell phones. Yeah, your ICE is likely safe for awhile longer, but not because the technology is lacking, but because adoption times are long. The original SF (and Traveller) were written for a scientific era that (as it turned out) was just about to get overthrown. |
April 3, 2016 - 9:46am | I get the point, however it still needs to be mainstream...which is still a long ways away. If you're referring to the Tesla Model 3 it's $35K before incentives (which is, what...$8K back?). It advertises a 215 mile range which, of course, declines at sustained freeway speeds. A lot of folks fail to grasp that the electrics are reversed from gas powered vehicles --- they do better in town rather than the freeway. According to their map the supercharging stations are rather abundant on the east & west coast along with Ohio/Indiana/Iowa/Michigan but far more sparse in the rest of the country. And time will tell how long they continue to be "free"...because if/when they do become mainstream, free will go the way of the dodo bird. Really, I do welcome the concept yet I'm still not hedging bets that I'll be drawing air when it happens. In fact, with our country's bureaucracy, I'm positive it won't happen. ;) |
April 3, 2016 - 11:00am | Your point about bureaucracy may be well made. I was strictly addressing the technical capacity, not the implimentation. From a game universe perspective, it's also important to keep in mind that we're talking about several centuries of time for tech to develop. At least 3-4 by my reckoning. |
