 July 4, 2010 - 6:36pm | I feel like I'm here a lot lately. My wife and I were talking about a special purpose ship for a salvage company. You couldn't simply throw some lines accross and tow it....or rather you *could* do that if you only cared about making the other ship move and you don't need to stop it from moving. (as an aside, getting an old ship moving on a trajectory and then cutting it free could make it a pretty handy weapon against a planet or station). She envisioned a piece of equipment that would be like a giant claw on the front end of your ship. It would clamp onto the other ship's hull and thereby form a rigid connection. Since this is a derelict I'm thinking about and we don't have to worry about damaging it we could probably have this claw thing dig right into the other ship. She also suggested carrying some extra engines in your hold and attaching them to the other ship....then you remote control it from your ship. Maybe you could use the existing pylons after removing the non-functional engines, or since there's no one on board to kill with the radiation we could attach them directly to the ship's structure. If towing it away is impractical then your salvage operation basically has to be a big cargo ship with lots of work pods. You would strip the other ship down and cut it into pieces small enough to fit in your hold. If anyone allows any kind of towing, how do you figure the maximum ADF/MR of the two ships together? Add the two hull sizes together and go by that maybe? |
 July 4, 2010 - 7:51pm | We designed a Jump Tug that could be used for this purpose. It was designed to move non-jump capable ships between systems. It appeared in one of the Star Frontiersman issues (number 9 IIRC) and there is some information here on this site about it. Here are some links. The first one is the thread were we discussed the content. The second is the full write-up of the ship. DEVELOPING NEW KH SHIP: JUMP TUG Jump Tug Description The write up has information about dealing with the effects of adding more hull sizes of ships onto the main body and how it affects the ADF/MR of the ship. It's not exactly scientific, but it works with the canon rules. Maybe it will give you some ideas. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 July 4, 2010 - 10:05pm | I like the Jump Tug and I agree it obviously can tow a ship. But we are talking about Salvage. Salvage is far more than just towing. Salvage is also rescue of Vessel and property. Salvage requires more than just six crewmembers. There may be repairs involved and time constraints. I wrote the other post before I saw Terl Obars reply. We must have been typing around the same time. lol. Salvage will require technicians for possable fire suppression, reinforcing damaged areas of a ship, rescue of cargo and or crew. Also is it Contract salvage or free salvage? Other considerations are was the vessel damaged in catastrophe/combat or did it just break down. For example "Titan Salvage" in real life owns a lot of equipment including Tugs floating cranes and derriks and even a floating drydock. Most Salvagers have a machine shop on board so that they can make repairs at sea. Repairing a ship in vacuum may be needed may require more special equipment. It Obviously could not be repaired by the crew if it needs a salvage rescue. A Typical Salvage rescue contract in real life can Gross the up 25% cost of the ship plus the cargo charged to the owners of course. Free salvage means the salvage comapany gets to keep the ship as long as no one can come forward and claim it in a reasonable amount of time.... (time is decided by a internationally recognised maritime court) It is a highly competative business. In Star Frontiers I would not want to go unarmed. In real life There are even special laws for rescue of pirated vessel. such as the salvage company must return the vessel and cargo to the owner, for a fee of 10% to 25% of the value of the ship and its cargo. Depending on how dangerous the rescue is; is how much the courts will award to the salvage company. A Salvage ship does not just Tow it also does rescue operations. So, if all you need a is a Tow, then the Jump Tug is fine, But if you need any of the other things you may need something more specialised. The bombing starts in five minutes. |
July 4, 2010 - 10:03pm | I picked this from KnightHawks Rules. I am sure you have already read it but I will repeat it any way. It is from Page 71-72 KH rules: 1)The moving player's ship must end its movement in the same hex as the ship to be grappled. 2)The two ships must have the same facing and speed. 3)Conditions 1 and 2 must have been maintained for at least five consecutive turns. 4) If conditions 1 through 3 have been met, both players roll 1d10 and add their pilot's skill level and the MR of their ship to the result. 5) If the player attempting to grapple has the highest modified die roll, he can fire his grapples. and: Grappling a Drifting Ship. A ship that is already drifting can be grappled to assure that it does not make repairs and then accelerate or maneuver. In this case, steps 1, 2 and 3 of the grappling process are followed as usual. During step 4, only the moving player rolls 1d10 and adds the level of his pilot. If the result is 8 or greater, the grappling attempt is successful. Well that is simple enough since the Other ship is Derelict, it has no pilot so even if you role on a 1 on your d10, you still beat a net sum of zero. ie a ship with NO pilot equals level 0. This is for ships NOT designed specifically for towing others Such as the above Jump Tug. Obviously this is just for giving somebody a lift. Adding together hull sizes may work unless both are size 20 or the sum of both is greater than 20 then we have to come up with a reasonable rule. for the moment simply to keep it simple I would say the ADF of 2 such ships would be 1 and MR should be 1/2. For 2 reasons. One, A normal ship is designed to drive itself maybe with a little extra for speed or whatever. Therefore you are pushing more mass than the engines are designed for. Two, ADF. While it may be possable to have more ADF than the 1/2 is it safe to maneuver a derelict that has been drifting for a long time in space? It most likely has sustained some sort of damage and could be in danger of breaking apart. I would suggest that you not maneuver more than is needed to get that derelict to where you need it to be. No one needs to be Attached to a ship that is about to break apart as debree could damage the towing vessel. I further propose that a Skilled Ship engineer should be able to roll on a skill to determine if a ship is too damaged to maneuver or if so how much maneuver can be done safely with margins of error and such. I am Going to think on the problem of a professional Towing/salvage company. I am sure such companys exist as there are accidents in space, along with Pirates and wars and meteors and other hazards out there. There are such companys for wet ships in the real world. They have Specialized equipment for doing those jobs. On my next post I shall propose a Specail Towing and Salvage ship with needed rigs. After I do some research and logical reasoning. I am goin to sleep on it too. The bombing starts in five minutes. |
 July 5, 2010 - 3:51am | Take a peak at my Space Rats play by post forum game (it's in the links section here, if you don't see it right away do a page refresh or two as that page lists the site links randomly). That entire game hinged on low dough spacers acquiring a wreck and making her spaceworthy again. The game took a different spin since the GM roles were swapped, but salvage was the prime money maker until then. Anyways, I have the owner of a salvage yard space station who has a fleet of freight haulers that travel the Frontier looking for derelict hulls and unclaimed equipment (drives etc), and the "mother ship" is a size 18 hauler that can pretty much fit up to HS12 hulls in its hold for transport (the smaller craft find and claim the wrecks, the bigger one arrives later to bring it home). |
July 5, 2010 - 8:15am | I agree the jump tug wouldn't work for salvage work. You definitely need more crew space and room for shops and such. I was just throwing it out there as an idea of how to deal with the ADF/MR modifications for moving additional ships around. I think it would be great to develop a salvage vessel. How big a crew do you think you'd need, what kind of storage space, etc. We should flesh out the details and then do a write up. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
July 5, 2010 - 4:46pm | Rick and Ki'rick Salvage Company LTD. Operating out of Cassidine. They have been using various old Tugs and recovery ships for thier Deep Space Salvage operation. Until Now This showcases thier latest Brand new Salvage ship. The "Able Hand" Owned by a partnership of of 2 old salvagers Rick Jennson and Ki' rick Kazk and thier wives Jenna and Lifk. Ki'rick handles the Astrogation the finances, billing and the legal aspects. Rick handles the day to day operations and captains the thier newest ship "Able Hand" he is also a pilot level 6. Lifk is the Salvage engineer/ship structure engineer. Jenna is the computer operator and programmer. There are other crewmember for various work aboard. Including 2 fabricator/welders. Electrical engineer. 3 fitters, they operate in EVA/ 0-G They attach the towing Cables, struts and bracings from the ship to distressed ships, they also do hull reinforcement where needed and assist the welder in that task. 2 heavy equipment operators to run the tackle, cranes, grapples or pusher. 1 medical officer. 1 Steward/cook who also assists the medical officer in case rescue of passenger's or crew is needed. Ship Name: Able Hand Hull: is size 5 for Volume purposes. However its true size is 6 beacuse it carries 8 class C ion engines for recovering up to HS 20 craft Plus the highly specialised system of ship recovery. It has a total of 11 engines. Propulsion: 3 Class B Ion Engines for use when it is in normal maneuver or transit. Once it is attached to another ship for salvage it can operate up to all 8 of the larger engines to propel the craft in distress as well as itself. This will be variable depending on the size and mass of the other hull. It is outfitted with extra powerfull maneuver jets for moving Ships much Larger than itself Life Support: She carries 3 life support systems of the largest type. For rescue purposes. Salvage a Luxery liner up to HS 20 Safely. She can Run ventilation tubes and conduits to the other ship to sustain life aboard if needed. Computers: 3 life support computer. 1computer for Navigation. 1 general purpose computer. 2 computer for propulsion. computers use a level 6 programing. Programmed by Jenna herself. She Designed a special program for variable engine needs specifically for salvage ops. 1 computer is used for the ship's main propulsion, the other is used for Controlling the Towing engines. though either could do either job. While most ships may have only 1 computer with multiple fuctions. Jenna likes to have multiple backups and she can easily network a computer to do another job if one breaks down. Navigation: Communication: They have spent over 15,000 credits for internal and external communication via intercom and short range broadcasting to communicate with each other durring operations. 1 Radar unit 1 Energy sensor suite 2 Full camera Sets 1 for normal use and 1 for use specifically for Salvage ops Full complement of Skin sensors. 1 Sub-Space radio Emergency Spacesuits for every crewmember. 1 lifeboat. 5 Standard Workpods 2 Heavy workpods (larger and can move more massive equipment needed for salvage recovery) Towing: Grapples Salvage 2 heavy Snatch Block and Cables usually use to secure a stranded vessel after it has been Grappled. 1 forward and 1 aft. Pusher recovery system. Mounted on the front of the ship this system is designed to attached the 2 ships together so that the salvage ship can be used to propell the distressed vessel forward by attaching to its engine struts or it's hull. Once this is done the Salvage ship can use its extra engines to propell the other ship as if it were in its normal movement. Fabrication/repair Department A full machine shop and a list of standard parts to repair ships in distress while underway. Defenses: RH Weapons: LB X2 Grapples2X This ship is designed for Rescue Salvage it is designed to "Tow" another vessel by pushing it into place using the Hard grapples mounted on the fore of the ship in Cunjuntion with the pusher plate. A large reinforced plate at the front of the ship used to keep any damage from happening to the Salvage ship as it pushes the other ship to safety. It Extends the hard grapples as wide as needed to attach to the other vessel to make a hard contact with the plate. Once this is accomplished and all is secured by the Salvage crew they can Take over as the propulsion for both ships. Including Jumping to another system if needed. The company has been in Business for over 30 years and after saving enough credits they were able to design and build this Vessel for its purpose. They Paid for it outright and they paid cash for it. Much to the bank's Dismay. It is Insured to the full cost of rebuilding it. Cost 300,000 for the hull 1,450,000 for the engines 132,000 for life support 74,000 for delux astrogation 20,000 for subspace radio 10,000 for the radar 200,000 for energy sensors 50,000 cameras 6000 for hull sensor 15,000 for special intercomm system 100,000 for life boat 20,000 for 2 laser battery 6,000 for reflective hull 150,000 for special grapples and pusher plate system 50,000 for Machine shop 25,000 for special block and tackle equipment 50,000 for special workpods 75,000 for misclaneous equipment Sub Total 2,7333,000 credits Fed taxes and licensing fees. 200,000 Salvage contract permit 100,000 Total 3,083,000 credits I made a picture of it But I cant seem to get it in here.... oh well The bombing starts in five minutes. |
July 5, 2010 - 5:17pm | Nice Yes....rigidly clamp to the other guy's engine struts. That's definitely the best way as you know that structure would be solid enough to push on. Two sets of ion engines simplifies the ADF question....it'll always be 1. That's perfect for a salvage tug. And the life support idea is great too. The wife and I were just talking about this and basically decided that you'd want two ships. One is the tug for moving an intact hull back to a station. The other is basically a large freighter that you use when the other ship is too far gone for towing. After you take off anything that can be saved, you have worker robots with LPT's crawl around and chop it into pieces. I hadn't really thought about the rescue angle....we were basically thinking about a wrecker business picking up old or damaged ships and taking them to a salvage yard for processing. You'd get paid to remove navigational hazards or bring a damaged ship back to it's owner. Anything you found on your own you could keep and sell it as refurbished parts and scrap metal. Or you could buy junk ships the way auto salvage yards pay for junk cars. I like the concept of the jump tug mentioned above, but It's not clear to me how the other ships attach to the boom, and I don't think the ADF chart seems right. If that could work then why would the task forces ever move around on their own when they could save so much fuel by using those tugs? Darren's ion drive method would work because your fuel consumption would be proportional to what you're pushing. |
 July 7, 2010 - 4:37pm | Isn't a grapple the same thing as this claw you're suggesting? Would not the ship of the two ships be a factor here? I can't see a HS 5 ship towing a HS 20 derelict, not without some heavy reinforcments to the hull and grappling gear. Becareful when dealing with derelict ships, you'll have to clear out all the face hugger pods out of them first. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
July 7, 2010 - 8:34pm | I don't see a HS:5 craft moving a HS:20 craft no matter what you do to it, unless of course said HS:5 craft were equipped with the proper amount of C class drives to move a HS:20 hull (re: 8 of 'em). It would definitely boogie without a load... |
July 8, 2010 - 10:21am | IMO, Grapples are for boarding, not for towing. The point of the claw thing is to make a rigid connection between our ship's structure and his; in this case by gripping onto his engine struts. You need a rigid connection because with cables you run the risk of the other ship crashing into you whenever the cables go slack as you maneuver and/or accelerate. Maybe you could keep the grapples taught with skillful piloting, but I think this way would be safer for everybody involved. Regarding size, they use tugboats to push aircraft carriers and other giant ships around in harbors where they don't have enough space to maneuver on their own. I don't know any reason why it couldn't be done in space. Great advice about the face huggers...all crew members will get a memo immediately. Isn't a grapple the same thing as this claw you're suggesting?
Would not the ship of the two ships be a factor here? I can't see a HS 5 ship towing a HS 20 derelict, not without some heavy reinforcments to the hull and grappling gear. Becareful when dealing with derelict ships, you'll have to clear out all the face hugger pods out of them first. |
July 8, 2010 - 1:59pm | Well there have been plenty of sci-fi that suggests derelict ships tend to draw in the most unsavory critters. Face-huggers, genestealers, space vampires, etc... Just trying to savalage a ship has a lot of game events, the ship could even be a trap to lure unsuspecing spacers to their doom. Just think of an Event Horizon like adventure, but how would you run a SF game where the derelict ship went to hell? And yes, tug boats push the big ships around in ports, and large barges up and down rivers. But this is space which is far more vast. Has any tug ever pushed a large ship all over the Pacific? Now in space multiply that by many times. How far and for how long can a little ship push a bigger ship? And they are slow, made for power and not speed. How long are you willing to take to have that HS 3-5 tug push that derelict from the outer edge into a dock. It presents problems of it's own. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
July 8, 2010 - 4:57pm | How far and for how long can a little ship push a bigger ship? And they are slow, made for power and not speed. How long are you willing to take to have that HS 3-5 tug push that derelict from the outer edge into a dock. Alas, water creates resistance and the constant need for power to move. Space is zero gravity/no resistance --- all you need to do is get the load moving. After that it's a simple matter of coasting for as long as it takes to reach the destination, and then power up again to slow down. Granted it will take the aforementioned gobs of power to start and stop the moving process. In essence, this could be accomplished with rear firing grapples, connect at the fore to start moving the derelict craft, disconnect and reattach at the stern to slow down before the destination. Granted that all applies to insystem duty, moving it to another system is a whole 'nuther matter. |
 July 8, 2010 - 7:10pm | It depends on how long you take to accelerate to jump. Logically, a single size "A" atomic drive could accelerate a HS 20 ship to jump speed, but it would take a long time and you might have to overhaul it a few times before you got to your destination. Practically, ion drives might be better for tugs because of their endurance. A tug would simply need enough fuel to move a mass for long periods, but there is no reason a HS 3 tug couln't jump a HS 20 derelict given enough time. It would have an ADF of far less than 1, of course. "Rome didn't build an empire by having meetings. They did it by killing those who stood in their way." |
July 9, 2010 - 5:16pm | You have thought this out well, although I can't help but wonder in some cases might it not be easier to just mount new engines on a hulk just to get it where you want it. But then that is also dependent on the condition of the derelict, which could also effect the towing/pushing of it. Don't want to lock onto the aft of a derelict only to have the section of the hull fail and you end up plowing your ship into the aft structure. Might want to play out reinforcing some of the derelict so the salvagers have a firm structure to hold on to if any damage has weakend the derelict's hull structure. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
July 10, 2010 - 3:27am | but there is no reason a HS 3 tug couln't jump a HS 20 derelict given enough time. It would have an ADF of far less than 1, of course. Yep, something like ADF:1-every-tenth-turn or something to that effect. On the other hand, multiple tugs could move it more efficiently. Assuming the ADF:1 per ten turns rule, you could also say that ten tugs working in unison could move it at the normal ADF:1/turn rate. I actually designed a "tug scout", although it's for insystem duty and not for moving hulks between stars. It's essentially a standard assault scout hull with no weaponry and a snubbed nose with a reinforced "bumper" attached, rear firing grapples (MHS:5 item on a HS:3 craft, hence no weaponry), and a quartet of atomic drives. As such teams of these tug scouts can move a hulk with their grapples and occasional "course correcting nudges", calling for #tugs = ½HS to move the hulk at ADF:1. Unladen, the tugs can boogie along at ADF:5 just like their militant siblings. |
 July 10, 2010 - 4:13am | My company, Starshine Salvage and Rescue, uses an old Star Barge Mark I - one of the original jump capable freighters and little better then scrap itself - for its operations. It rarely concerns itself with returning a hulk intact and instead focuses on salvaging cargo and high value parts (engines, comms, astrogation, computers, shuttles, etc). As a HS 7 craft, the Scrap Heap has a fair amount of cargo space for these items. It has only 2 ion drives for maximum efficiency (and profit margin). However, if time allows (and the profit margin is acceptable), a complete in-space repair will be attempted to jump the ship into a system with an appropriate SSC. The salvage and scrappers astrogation will be linked (as in the SWII) to jump both ships together. For maximum safety (and protection of the profit margin), hulk jumping is at no more then 0.75 ADF (the hulk's engines are equipped with governors during the repair to prevent ADF above this threshold). It is important to note that in my campaigns, pilots are unnecessary for jumping as the computer controls this. The scrapper is equipped with grapples for those times when hulk jumping goes wrong. My crew consists of techie types, a medic (with experience with deep space psychiatry), and maybe one experienced military type. The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
July 10, 2010 - 4:20am | Great advice about the face huggers...all crew members will get a memo immediately. Umm, why? Do you know how much a face hugger on someone in a freeze field would be worth? "Because. And says me. It's an extremely dangerous mission that killed my last crew. And you're not nearly as good as them." Professor Farnsworth from Futurama |
July 10, 2010 - 2:06pm | Long story short, the big salvage business in my game, Shat Rat's Salvage Yard, is a space station dubbed "Boneyard Station" orbitting Evergleem (Triad's moon). The hub extends out on either side of the ring, "triple wide" if you will. One end is for docking, the middle is for hull reconstruction, and the third is the actual scrap yard. For all intent purposes, it's considered as a class 3 SCC although jump capable drives are available - most of which need some work to live again. A size 18 freighter is their big hauler, it can carry up to a size 12 hull in its massive hold. There are numerous other smaller freight haulers that scout the Frontier for wrecks, claiming pieces and parts as well as entire hulls (calling in the big boat for such transport duty). The mantra here is anything larger than HS:12 is expensive enough to buy new...the big business is restoring/ressurecting size 3-8 hulls, more affordable for run of the mill spacers looking for a spaceship that they can call their own. In my Space Rats game, the players acquired the wrecked Melinda McCoy (claimed by Shat Rat's after the Dramune Run module) and made a freighter out of it, retaining some of the original ship's weapon points (cannon and batteries). |
July 16, 2010 - 5:48pm | Ummm ... as far as size goes... thats why we attached 8 class C engines... with a computer program that can control them variably so that we can change the amount of engines to only those needed. As far as size goes There are Super tankers that get towed by tugs all the time, and In WWII when a capitol ship was hit and had to be drydocked for repairs the Navy would send out a fleet tug to Pull it back to Pearl or San Diego or San Francisco to the drydock for repairs. Keep in mind that The navy Fleet Tugs were as slightly smaller than a Frigate of the time. That is mostly why I chose HS 5, that is the size of the SF frigate. My father served on a Fleet Tug in the late 1960s. 68 Actually They towed a Giant Cargo crane from San Diego to Pearl, and from Pearl to Da Nang. Arrive just in time for the Tet Offensive and Charlie sank the crane in Da Nang Harbor. So they had to stay on Station and Help raise the crane then put it into position as well. But the Tug had been in service since the 1930s and It had seen action in WWII as well as Nam. the Point is you design the salvage ship or tug to take long Voyages where you may need to push or pull the ship with you to its final destination. Its a Ocean Going Fleet tug, not river or lake tug, this ship has engines big enough to push or pull an Essex Class Carrier If needed. Our Salvage Ship may need to recover (salvage) a ship as large as a UPF Battleship some day if the Sathar come back, and Hopefully clear the debree left by the defeat of the sathar fleet. "Let them Come again, We will clean thier cronochoms!" or ... so they hope. The bombing starts in five minutes. |
