 April 24, 2008 - 7:48am | I have begun work on a new ship class initially called the Jump Tug. The function of this vessel will be to assist other vehicles with low or no jump capability in making void jumps. Essentially this vessel would be a huge highly reliable jump drive capable of numerous jumps before requiring an overhaul which would dock/attach to the host ship and provide transport during the jump. Once the jump is completed the host ship could detach to conduct its mission. The Jump Tug could be automated/robotic or have a very small crew. The jump tug could operate independently but would be slow, lightly armed if armed at all, and not practical as a self-sufficent starship as it would sacrfice a lot of systems for the huge jump drive. Navigation, Engineering, and Flight Operations would be the primary systems of the ship. Jump tugs with service crews would include extremely spartan life-support and living conditions. I will be working on this for a while and would like to hear what the community thinks about it. |
 April 24, 2008 - 7:56am | WOW! I love it. What a neat idea. Jump Tugs could be used to move disabled ships from port to port kinda like a tow truck. Ships would use their airlocks to interconnect, right? (There would need to be a universal system.) This is kinda related to this thread Refer to: Mounting shuttles on ships hulls I have an image in my mind what one would look like, I'll see if I can sketch it out. Consider submitting this for Issue 9 of the STAR FRONTIERSMAN webzine.  |
April 24, 2008 - 8:16am | You got it! Universal air locks with a locking/grappling system. Towing disabled vessels is another great idea, love it. Some great adventure ideas here of a tug crew on salvage missions or a scenario where an independent tug crew gives a vessel a jump to another system with an uknown suprise cargo on the ship, when the jump is complete all hell breaks loose.....ahhhh the possibilities. Anyway yes it would be great to have it featured in the frontiersman. |
 April 24, 2008 - 8:40am | I like this idea as well. I dont think it would be necessary to have an interconnecting airlock though. I could see where it would be usefull, such as a rescue type vessel. But mostly it would be there as part of the plot. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 April 24, 2008 - 8:52am | Not to steal your thunder, but isn't this like a tender vessel, as in Full Thrust? I think they are a great addition to sci fi space combat, as they allow an even chance for species with limited technology. Imagine armies of Werren jumping into a system in a Jump Tug to invade an unfortunate planet - kinda shakes up peoples thinking. |
April 24, 2008 - 9:04am | Not to steal your thunder, but isn't this like a tender vessel, as in Full Thrust? I think they are a great addition to sci fi space combat, as they allow an even chance for species with limited technology. Imagine armies of Werren jumping into a system in a Jump Tug to invade an unfortunate planet - kinda shakes up peoples thinking. Enemies jump in. But they don't jump out.  How about this; A jump tug enters a system, grapples a luxury yatch and jumps out. I like this idea as well. I dont think it would be necessary to have an interconnecting airlock though. I could see where it would be usefull, such as a rescue type vessel. But mostly it would be there as part of the plot. I think your saying you don't need airlocks. The Jump Tug could have a "claw" or "magnetic grapples" instead? |
 April 24, 2008 - 9:16am | I would imagine that this craft would be one of many different types of system utility ships used for all kinds of purposes: Jump Tugs System Tugs System Supply Ships Cargo/personnel ferries Mobile repair workshops Luxury VIP system transports / system liners System research ships Probes Telescopes & Sattellites System energy "harvesters" - small ships that gather and store energy from solar/cosmic rays. The larger systems such as Prenglar would be veritable beehives of activity with hundreds of these ship types buzzing around. |
April 24, 2008 - 9:51am | I am not familiar with the tender vessel or the Full Thrust reference. However, you are 100 percent correct in your assesment that this vessel could be used as a ferry for a troop ship envasion. Providing the ferry-ing of a millitary landing craft. If the millitary/mercenary force used contracted a automated/robotic jump tug there would be no questions asked as to the reason for the tow...just input coordinates, cargo size, and duration of contract, then jump away. Could be billed by the jump. Eventually i'm sure governmental regulations would have to come into play and star law would have to get involved in un-sanctioned cargo jumps but that could all be fleshed out in some really fun and exciting test games/adventures |
April 24, 2008 - 9:53am | Not to steal your thunder, but isn't this like a tender vessel, as in Full Thrust? I think they are a great addition to sci fi space combat, as they allow an even chance for species with limited technology. Imagine armies of Werren jumping into a system in a Jump Tug to invade an unfortunate planet - kinda shakes up peoples thinking. Enemies jump in. But they don't jump out. How about this; A jump tug enters a system, grapples a luxury yatch and jumps out. I like this idea as well. I dont think it would be necessary to have an interconnecting airlock though. I could see where it would be usefull, such as a rescue type vessel. But mostly it would be there as part of the plot. I think your saying you don't need airlocks. The Jump Tug could have a "claw" or "magnetic grapples" instead? yes the possibility of priate operations or terrorist acts make for some juicy scenario plots |
April 24, 2008 - 11:00am | I am not familiar with the tender vessel or the Full Thrust reference. However, you are 100 percent correct in your assesment that this vessel could be used as a ferry for a troop ship envasion. Providing the ferry-ing of a millitary landing craft. If the millitary/mercenary force used contracted a automated/robotic jump tug there would be no questions asked as to the reason for the tow...just input coordinates, cargo size, and duration of contract, then jump away. Could be billed by the jump. Eventually i'm sure governmental regulations would have to come into play and star law would have to get involved in un-sanctioned cargo jumps but that could all be fleshed out in some really fun and exciting test games/adventures One limiting factor might be to decide that these things are very slow. A trip using one of these would be 1/2 to twice as long as a normal trip. Depending on the size of the tug and the vessel requiring it, it might take more than one tug to do the job. If a hull size 5 Tug can take up to a HS 10 vessel, anything more will require a second tug. Maybe just to boost it the first tug out of the start stystem, then another tug at the receiving system. Hmm, that would be tough to coordinate. You have opened up an interesting subject. I am looking forward to watching this develop. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
April 24, 2008 - 1:15pm | The jump tug would only be slow while manuvering in normal space under standard propulsion. The concept is of a very large jump engine for void travel. I think the idea should't be that they are slow when performing their intended function of performing a void space jump. think of it this way it's got a kind of sluggish 4 cylinder for driving around town, but theres this big ole hemi with NOS in the back for hittin' the highway. you load up all your friends, drive at a leisurely speed to the on-ramp, then boom! lite up the hemi and hold on for the ride. when you get to the off ramp, ya switch off the hemi go back to the leisurely crawl until you pull into the parking lot. Only in this case the hemi and the v-4 are in the same propulsion system. |
 April 24, 2008 - 2:43pm | I like the concept as well. Here are a couple points to consider: 1) I think it would need to be crewed, at least using the standard rules as they require an Astrogator to make the jump calculations, it can't be completely automated. So at a minimum I think you'd need a pilot, astrogator and engineer. Some of those roles could reside in the same person or you may have more than one person with the same skill (think 2 astrogators so you can have jump calculations going round the clock instead of having to stop calculations while taking breaks for rest). 2) I don't quite follow the dual propulsion example. Rather I understand it but don't see how it applies. Again, based on the KH rules, jumps only last a few seconds, you spend all your time accelerating up to just below jump speed, make sure your calculations are correct, nudge over jump speed a bit to enter the Void, wait a few seconds, declerate a bit to come out of the Void, and ta-da, you are in the new system and then you have to slow that mass down again. There is really only one propulsion system needed and that is your big one for acceleration up to and down from jump speed. The bigger the engines the more you can move. You just tone it down when manuvering around the planets and stations. In game terms I see your idea as mouning some big Class C Atomics on a smaller hull, sacrificing crew and cargo room for structural integrety to deal with the oversized engines. Unloaded ,these things would scream and accelerate to the limit of the biological constraints of the crew (see point 1). Loaded it would depend on the size of the ship and the size of the cargo. The real fun starts trying to quantify this last bit. You run immediately into the main flaw with the standard KH ship design rules. The engine size, engine number and ship size issue and the fact that the volume as a function of hull size is not linear. A HS 20 ship is not 25% bigger (in volume and therefore roughly mass) than a HS 16 ship, it is nearly 2.5 times bigger and yet it only needs 2 more engines (8 instead of 6 - only a 33% increase) to get the same ADF of 2. That aside, this is how I'd do it as a first cut. Maybe it will give you some ideas. Say your standard tug has to be at least HS 4 to have enough mass to hold the Class C engines. At HS 4 it could have 4 engines, HS 5 could have 6 and HS 6 could mount 8. Then you could move as much HS worth of ships equal to twice the HS of the larger ships sporting that many engines minus it's own hull size. At that maximum load it would have an ADF of 1. So my HS 4 with 4 engines could move 15 (the HS with 4 Class C engines - I'm ignoring the 4 on the chart for the HS 19 ship as that doesn't make any sense at all. It should need 6 or 8, for this example I use 8) x 2 - 4 = 26 HS worth of ships at ADF 1. My HS 5 ship could move 18 x 2 - 5 = 31 HS worth of ships and the HS 6 could move 20 x 2 - 6 = 34 HS worth. If it is carrying less it could accelerate faster. I can work those out as well if you think this might be a way to go. Anyway, that's an idea on one way to implement it in game mechanics. It gives you 12 jumps without overhauls (but then down time is a beast as you have a bunch of overhauls to do :) ) without inventing a new engine type. BTW, I like the idea of jumping in snatching the HS 6 luxury curiser and jumping out. With those massive engines on the tug it wouldn't be slow it all even loaded with the ship. Expensive, but not slow. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 24, 2008 - 3:03pm | Ok, my head started to spin with the math and chart calculations, even though we do them all the time, for some reason they looked different on the computer screen..lol. To answer the earlier question...no its one propulsion system, I was trying illustrate how it's function would not necessarily be slow since it is intended only for jumping not for cruising. The metaphor made sense in my head it probably just didn't translate well on paper....lol |
 April 24, 2008 - 5:09pm | I just have two words Floating Drydock. I preposed it before but it got shot down in chat so I did not go any further with it. |
April 24, 2008 - 5:13pm | A floating drydock does have merit Gilbert and I think you should consider reviving the idea. However, my project is a little more ambitious, this dock not only floats, it pushes, pulls, and jumps, lol. Don't abandon your project I think you could make it work. |
April 24, 2008 - 5:23pm | My drydock can jump and it totally encloses the ship it is going to transport. |
April 24, 2008 - 6:31pm | Why is called a "drydock" if it's in space? Shouldn't it be called "spacedock"? AZ and Terl - do you guys want to collaborate on an article for the Star Frontiersman Issue 9? Since I'm better at warming brig-benches than math I could start an article or mini-adventure about a pirate jump tug that snatches yatches. |
April 24, 2008 - 7:00pm | That could probably be arranged .Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 April 25, 2008 - 3:30pm | ...blurp...I was way off topic so i erased my entry «Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
 April 25, 2008 - 5:35am | I think you are missing the point on how vessels "jump" into the Void under existing rules. You spend a lot of time accelerating to 1% of the speed of light and then you just "jump" into the void, at the allotted time (fairly quick) you decelerate below that speed and you come out near your destination. You then have to spend the same amount of time decelerating to your ultimate destination same as you accelerated from your point of origin. A bigger "jump drive" will not make this any quicker. And since you are creating a tug that will be likely pulling other ships you will be slowed even more in your acceleration to jump speed. The majority of time for jumping is spent accelerating and decelerating. Personally, I find this KH method to be utter dross. Maybe you are assuming you will have a special power plant with special engines that will allow you to accelerate much faster than normal (even while pulling the extra load). By this reasoning then regular ships could just use these engines and then accelerate even faster on their own barring some special reason for doing so. I know it's changing the official line of the game but I would rather see jump drives that allow you to travel without all the acceleration and deceleration. Jump drives would be separate systems taking up space, require additional or special fuel and have a higher cost. Larger jump drives would allow you to jump greater distances per jump than smaller ships. This would add greater need for a jump tug-like ship. Smaller ships would want to use this much larger ship with greater size jump drives to go farther with fewer jumps than they could do on their own. These smaller ships could also not even devote space or money, etc to having the drive and maintaining it in the first place. This is the route I've thought about and would use in my own campaign. |
April 25, 2008 - 7:30am | Zeram, Thanks for your input. Allow me to respond to a couple of your points. Developing new drive system - bingo, thats the whole idea if possible, developing new technology an innovation. As far as larger/big engine, that could also be a figurative description it could just be a more efficent or powerful engine using the current system. Of course at the end of the day the whole concept may fall apart and it may just be a clever idea that goes no where, but thats what were here to talk about. I am pretty certain that under the current FTL void space jump rules out of the book we could come up with a sufficent number of atomic engines straped to a very spartan hull with very spartan systems that would allow it to nudge another vessel into the void. Imagine if you will a cruiser sized drive system, strip away everything frivalous, stick a pilot house with spartan crew acomodations for a minimal crew, just enough room for comupter, navigation, etc. add a docking assembly or grappling arm(s). Now take this big ole tractor and have it hook up with an assault scout, small freighter, system ship, privateer, exploration ship, etc. that doesn't have a good jump capacity and watch it push through the void. Ok, now there have been some more ambitious suggestions like salvage and search and rescue of larger vessels which may require us to look at just how much mass can we move. Well if we have a cruiser drive system and there is no weight restrictions in space it would be safe to say that it could probably push a cruiser sized object into the void sucessfully at normal speeds. Now back to size, obviously an assualt scouts drive system is a lot smaller then a cruisers drive system so that large engine proposal may have some bearing after-all if we are using the normal SF propulsion system rules canon. If were talking about Folding Space theory of FTL then the drive engines size is only relevant to the size of the field needed to be created to fold a sufficently large area of space to pass the size of the the two vehicles through. I haven't kept up on the stargate theory and hyperspace theories proposed here. Needless to say FTL is a tricky subject here because there are a lot of great theories and no actual proof on anything. Truthfully since none of this technology exists today we have to speculate on what it might be like. Well thank you for the input and please feel free to contribute your concepts. |
April 25, 2008 - 10:53am | Great ideas all, I'd like to add mine to the pot. The image in my mind of Star Frontiers is much like Galaxy Rangers cartoon. Technology mixed with the Old West. Space travel in the SF universe is long and tedious. It's like riding the Wagon Train from Maine to California. You will get there but it will be a long haul. It's just got that SF feel, ya know? In fact most of the current (and old) games we played it didn't really matter how long or short it took, our GM abstracts the space flight. (He also abstracts vehicle combat... sniff. I like using cardboard chits!  )Couple of my views that may have been misunderstood: 1. No chance for combat in the Void (although the Sathar have somehow developed a device that will "pull" a ship out of the Void - it must be mounted and powered prior to entering the Void) 2. BIG engines on a jump thug would be used to get the fastest possible ADF. I would think it's MR would be 1 (can you go less than 1?) and a ADF of 6 (maybe 7?) to get it's cargo to the Void as fast as possible and be able to decelerate as fast as possible cutting the time it takes to jump from system to system. *** Also, (2.) is in-line with our idea of a jump tug meandering around a space station looking for prey, grabbing a ship then skedaddling off to the Void. |
 April 26, 2008 - 3:33pm | w00t: It might be possible in the canon game to have an MR of ½; simply turn the ship so it's pointing in the corners between hexsides(30 degree turns). Arizona: Your jump tug is a good concept. Did the JumpShip design from the MechWarrior series influence your ideas any? "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 26, 2008 - 3:41pm | I just have two words Floating Drydock. I preposed it before but it got shot down in chat so I did not go any further with it. I'm with Arizona on this; it's a damn good idea, especially for invasion fleets who, for one reason or another, lack access to ship repair and maintenance facilities, and it can be deployed at the fringes of the system being invaded(with a small force of ships, or simply fighter squadrons to provide escort). It doesn't even have to have powerful engines, just jump capability, tho adapting Arizona's jump tug concept for this will work just as well. Of course, size wise, it would have to be more along the lines of a HS 20+ craft, rather than a cruiser-class vessel, in order for it to be able to repair at least one battleship. bioreplica has a design which is something along these lines, if you're interested, Gilbert. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 26, 2008 - 6:05pm | I have an "space dock"(for w00t's sake) It is only hull size 5-10. The way it is designed and how it envelopes the vessel to be repaired or jumped back to friendlier space is unique onto itself. The complete system uses predesign add ons to the federation style construction. It can also bring unknown ships into itself for analysis or recovery. They are in a class of their own. The military version allows the the ship to use its weapons as well, but not all of them. Only in tow mode though. |
April 26, 2008 - 7:06pm | bioreplica has a design which is something along these lines, if you're interested, Gilbert. I've posted details about the Automated Factory Plaform (AFP) in the Online Ship Generator project. Its more than a floating drydock. Its a mobile spacefactory with asteroid field harvesting capabilities. «Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
April 26, 2008 - 7:08pm | double post - ignore !!! «Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
April 26, 2008 - 7:53pm | i like the idea, how ever the mobile supply system would be a nightmare to get into place. I see many small ships just to support this thing. |
April 29, 2008 - 1:02pm | Reminder: AZ_GAMER, Terl and Gilbert - Space Dock and Jump Tug submission for Issue 9. w00t needs the info to do a mini-story and artwork. |
April 29, 2008 - 1:13pm | What is the deadline and what infor do you need from me? |
. Well some great feedback and some really good concepts here. Some of you guys are really good with the numbers and charts and I would definitely defer to your wisdom on this. I think it still has a lot of merit and worth working with. think about it. maybe play test it in an adventure and tell me more about what you come up with. As far as using new engines, maybe it will need to employ a new engine design so that more jumps can be completed between overhauls, i'm thinking twenty would make it a pretty profitable as a commercial venture. ten trips out and back between overhauls. However twelve isn't bad either, six out and six back. I like the concept of overhaul repairs after a certain number of jumps, the whole unlimited jump idea in shows like star trek really take too many liberties, its a machine at some point it needs to be fixed from regular wear and tear. In addition, it makes the idea of making a jump a little more important, not something like running down to the super-market.