 March 19, 2010 - 7:34am | I was curious about large caliber projectile weapons. If I had a character who was the SF equivalent modern day special forces sniper, what sort of weapon would he be using? I assumed the auto weapons from SF were fairly small bore weapons. Smaller even then 9mm. How do you account for 50 cal. rifles? And what about small caliber hold out pistols versus a .45? |
 March 22, 2010 - 11:02am | I have used the ablative damage rules for this situation. With all range modifiers it allows a shot to be aimed. You bump the hit location by skill. Works fine. As for damage: If the target is stationary for at least a round the shooter can muliply his skil X the damage rolled. Works great... As for a sniper skill. Being a sniper is far more than shooting a rifle. We were called scouts in the old USMC At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
 March 22, 2010 - 11:09am | I have used the ablative damage rules for this situation. With all range modifiers it allows a shot to be aimed. You bump the hit location by skill. Works fine. As for damage: If the target is stationary for at least a round the shooter can muliply his skil X the damage rolled. Works great... As for a sniper skill. Being a sniper is far more than shooting a rifle. We were called scouts in the old USMC so from what you're saying the ablative damage rules doesn't even need a sniper rule? BTW I just found new photographic evidence on who really was the sniper at the Texas School Book Repository on the day JFK was shot. http://www.chezmaya.com/txt/sniper.jpg I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 March 22, 2010 - 1:33pm | @ Rum: I C now so you get a hit on a targeted roll and because its a head shot there is a 25% that its a critical? Ie meaning the mook is dead? In the Fallout rpg, everyone has a base critical hit chance. So on a targeted shot to the head, the +25% is added to the pc's base crit chance. Then if the to-hit roll is less than that total, it is a confirmed crit. A successful targeted shot to the head was 3X damage; not an instant kill. Otherwise if a normal attack roll falls under the base crit chance, then a roll on the random critical chart tells you where and how hard you hit. That is what I am looking at. But then again, I likes to roll dice. But I can also see where that will be rather cluttered. I would be for the KISS rule on this Option 1. criticals are base of the martial arts nerve combat rule (figured for the weapons kill of the shooter), this is good as a really good to hit roll means max damage or effectively a crit since the bell curve usually ensures 1/2 the max possible. Plus this one applies to all aimed shots whether targeted on a specific location or not. I agree with you that this most likely the best option with AlphaDawn. Many years ago I had a player convince me to use the martial arts hits with ranged weapons. It was alot of fun. But it was so long ago I do recall any details. When we remembered to use it, it seemed to work. I also used the Shot in the Arm crit system in some test fights. It was a mess to start with, but once we got used to the system it flowed really nice. It got nasty at times, but was alot of fun. I really think you should stick with your idea of the 10xp to buy the Sniper training. I think it will flow nicely with AD. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 March 22, 2010 - 6:14pm | BTW I just found new photographic evidence on who really was the sniper
at the Texas School Book Repository on the day JFK was shot. http://www.chezmaya.com/txt/sniper.jpg MITTENS! Bad kitty! BAD KITTY!  The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
 March 23, 2010 - 4:51pm | Would rolling within a certain success percentage work then? Could add it in as a Sniper skill on top of the weapons skill. Then this might grant a lvl 6 sniper a pretty high kill ratio and then characters would want that skill and max it up first, but it would only apply under specific situation so that it can't be abused by every one wanting to make every shot an instant kill. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
March 23, 2010 - 5:04pm | I guess I didn't articulate it earlier. i am against a skill called 'sniper'. I think that the skill of a true sniper is misunderstood. the primary mission of a sniper is information gathering and recon. not to shoot a guy in the head (we didn't even train for a head shot) center mass high percetage hits and all that. a sniper would have a whole host of subskill: concealment observe locate communications hand to hand survival first aid etc. I think what we really are talking about is marksmanship and leathality of a placed shot. this could apply to a pistol, rifle, recoiless, anything. so, the higher the skill of an individual the better able they are to place a shot. At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
March 23, 2010 - 6:03pm | Good points Umungus that said then just getting up to lvl 6th with a weapon and taking an aimed shot plus adding in all the other skills you mentioned would make a character a sniper What you just described sounds like a character archtype.....and one thats not in the SFman....hhmmm However, I do like the idea of using the martial arts nerve combat rules mechanic to give a max damage critical for an aimed shot. maybe make it a marksmanship training with a weapon for 5-10 EXP one time purchase. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 23, 2010 - 7:30pm | @umungus: I agree that a military sniper is trained in all of those skills. On the other hand, a police sniper might not. In its rawest form, sniping is the art of influencing a situation with superior marksmanship. Therefore, the XP cost of the SF sniper training would simply cover the advanced elements of marksmanship, i.e. evaluation of environmental conditions, knowledge of your weapons performance characteristics, etc. The other skills of a military scout sniper are covered under their respective skill sets (i.e. environmental, martial arts, and medical at the least). The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
March 23, 2010 - 9:05pm | i agree georgie. why not use the rules that bill came up with. you get to multiply you skill x your damage roll if you aim for two turns and your target does not move. single shots only no bursts. i have used this rule in games and it works well. not always fatal but seems to simulate the marksman idea well. i dont think you should have to invest more xp points to be more accurate just take more time to prepare for the shot. much like in real life. i am quite a fan of the ablative damage rules. i know i sound like a broken record. it does take into account aiming and cover. and uses your skill level to aim not just a lucky die roll. jedion, a military sniper scout archetype might be fun to work out. At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
March 24, 2010 - 7:44am |
Example: A level 4 shooter hits the intended target. Rolls 3, 5, 10 - that's 72 points of damage at 2km. That's what i call reaching out and touching someone. At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... | ||||||||||||||||
March 24, 2010 - 8:05am |
Example: A level 4 shooter hits the intended target. Rolls 3, 5, 10 - that's 72 points of damage at 2km. That's what i call reaching out and touching someone. Neat idea, but I liked it better when there was no point-blank range catagory. I dont something with that weight being moved fast enough on a close target to get the PB bonus to-hit. Very nice indeed. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. | ||||||||||||||||
March 24, 2010 - 12:32pm | agreed that manuevering that big gun would make it difficult at close range. for anything but rested shooting the rifle would not be practicle for combat. (im assuming that this gun is similar to a barret light 50 in size.) but there is no bonus for point blank in sf rules. not sure what you mean. maybe make it a -3 for initative modifier while using the rifle for off hand firing? At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
March 24, 2010 - 12:32pm | agreed that manuevering that big gun would make it difficult at close range. for anything but rested shooting the rifle would not be practicle for combat. (im assuming that this gun is similar to a barret light 50 in size.) but there is no bonus for point blank in sf rules. not sure what you mean. maybe make it a -3 for initative modifier while using the rifle for off hand firing? At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
March 24, 2010 - 2:57pm | agreed that manuevering that big gun would make it difficult at close range. for anything but rested shooting the rifle would not be practicle for combat. (im assuming that this gun is similar to a barret light 50 in size.) but there is no bonus for point blank in sf rules. not sure what you mean. maybe make it a -3 for initative modifier while using the rifle for off hand firing? Yeah, I had a Barret in mind as well. For some reason I keep thinking that PB range is a +10 to-hit. I think it was a house rule that one gm did for his SFU. I keep adding it in unless I have a book physically in my hand. So please disregard my earlier comment about PB range. I like the initiative idea. Maybe a -3 to initiative if the target is within 50m and aware of the shooter? Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
March 24, 2010 - 4:14pm | @umungus: I could live with that rule ... depending on who was pulling the trigger.  The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
March 26, 2010 - 11:36am | I guess the only impression of sniper I've seen are false ones then. It's all movies and people in FPS games do is sit back at a distance and shoot people that I never thought there was more to it. That said if you wanted to make it a markmen skill at lvl 6, should not a good roll still get extra results? Some games give critial damage or double damage if the success roll is within a certain margin. In SF case any successful roll ending with 0 is a critical and if the roll comes as 01-10 it's an instant kill. That's all I was trying to suggest for those that want to make a marksman sniper effect. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
 March 30, 2010 - 1:12pm | on the topic of larger progectile weapons- i have often kicked around the idea of a light machine gun (like the BAR, SAW, hollywood's M-60) we let it have the same damage as a normal machine gun but the ranges of a auto rifle. only shot in only burst (or could shoot single shots that did normal auto rifle damage) and used 50-round bullet drums (that costed somthing like 10 or 20 credits each... progectile ammo always seems to be really cheap in SF) (insert sarcastic comeback here) |
March 30, 2010 - 5:33pm | hollywood's M-60  A hollywood M-60, isn't that the one that never runs out of ammo? Seriously I like the idea. how much should it weigh and is there to be a wt restriction on carrying it? The std. mg requires 80 STR IIRC. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 March 30, 2010 - 6:04pm | I'm working on updating the skill list from "A Skilled Frontier" in addition to adding the ability that should be used with each skill. When two abilities are listed you may select which to use as the base chance of success (once selected, you can not change this). For larger guns (those found on vehicles, spaces and emplacements) I'm using the following skill. GUNNERY Success Rate: 1/2 DEX (or LOG) + 10% per levelThis skill is used for aiming larger weapons on spaceships, vehicles, or building emplacements. The ability is based on whether your character is dexterous - able to type fast and has excellent hand/eye coordination used to target fast moving ships or if he is the calculating type - able to compute trajectories and speeds with superb accuracy. A character can still use a weapon even if the computer weapon system has been knocked out as long as he has a way to see the target. The suggested adjustment is; easy -10%, medium -20%, difficult -30%, heroic -40%. Characters that do not posses this skill can still make an unskilled check. He is assumed to be using the built in computer guided programming for the weapon. If the weapons computer systems have been knocked out its unlikely the character can attempt the shot unless there is a manual control override. You may purchase multiple times, each time selecting a different skill.
|
March 30, 2010 - 8:21pm | I was a 60 gunner for a year (assistant gunner for 4 months). The weapon is big and bulky but not terribly heavy. It can be fired from the shoulder in a standing position without much difficulty. Or even from the hip one handed - Rambo style. However, if the AD Machine Gun is the equivelent of a M2 .50 caliber, then the M60 is in no way the same damage category. I would suggest basing an M60 type weapon on the autorifle by doubling the effective range and adding a single extra d10 damage, but make it belt fed like the AD MG. As the BAR is the same caliber as the M60, treat them the same. The SAW (or M249) is the same caliber as the M16 with very similar performance characteristics (on a basic level), so it is the same as an autorifle. The drum for the SAW holds a 200 round ammo belt and it can also be magazine fed (i.e. autorifle magazine). The drawback of machine guns like the M60 and M249 are that they are not as accurate as a rifle in single shot mode. Their primary purpose is in suppression, not picking someone off at 200 meters. I would suggest a -10 to hit modifier if firing them in semi-auto mode. The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
 March 30, 2010 - 8:34pm | Talking about sniping, has anyone every seen Sol Blanca? One of the characters used a high powered laser rifle to snipe from orbit! Gold is for the mistress-silver for the maid-copper for the craftsman cunning at his trade.But Iron-Cold Iron- is master of them all |
March 31, 2010 - 1:05pm | i would put the wieght of one of these around 10 kg perhaps a little less. I like the single shot modifier Geogrie. Perhaps their could also be a heavier penalty for firing on the move (doeble the normal rates or an extra -10... something like that). I think that they could also suffer the inititive penilty for using an extended clip (-1) (insert sarcastic comeback here) |
 March 31, 2010 - 8:30pm | @Woot If you are talking about indirect fire guns (i.e. howitzers) they need a forward observer to feed them the targeting data. |
April 1, 2010 - 7:03am | @Woot If you are talking about indirect fire guns (i.e. howitzers) they need a forward observer to feed them the targeting data. Thanks for the input - I'm not a indirect fire type of robot. ;-) I'm not sure how to encapsulate the forward observer into the skill, maybe a -40% to hit without an observer? Smart characters would use a tag-tracker (#3-p20) to map out a 5km radius which would include large enemy bunkers, vehicles and perhaps large troop movements. Getting back on topic we have the following skills which cover a range of weapons; - pistols - rifles - heavy weapons (this topic) - gunnery Thinking categorically that should cover everything.  |
April 1, 2010 - 7:29pm | Well, I happen to be an old "Gun Bunny" so here's how it worked when I was in. The forward observer (infantry, calvary, whomever) calls for arty fire. They feed an 8 digit grid coordinate to the Battery HQ. An officer looks at the target area on a map figures out whether or how much to turn the gun(s) left or right and how much to raise or depress the tube based on the range and type of "joe" going down range. He then feeds azimuth and deflection info to the guns as well as type of munition, fuse, fuse setting, powder type and charge (i.e. how much powder), and how many joes to shoot. One designated gun will fire. The forward observer will report back any corrections. The Officer will make the changes and relay that to the guns. The guns fire, stuff blows up. Sounds complicated but happens really fast. I imagine it is similar in the Navy. |
April 2, 2010 - 9:11am | ".....CHARGE 5 DOWN RANGE!!....FIRE AT WILL!!" At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
April 2, 2010 - 4:17pm | White or green bag? I don't even know what the charges on red bag are. |
 May 31, 2010 - 5:05pm | I was An Abrams Tanker, A Generic "Heavy weapons skill" would Imply that not only can I use the 105mm or 120mm Main Cannon on the Tank, but Also the 25mm Gun on the Bradley IFV. But that I am also An Artillery guy capable of using a light Howitzer or the Mechanised (Mouted on a Track Vehicle) M109 Self Propelled Howitzer. Nothing could be further from the truth. I can load, aim, shoot and correct a tank cannon in Rapid succesion I can even Document having Company High Score for Tank gunnery qualification on My Non Commisioned Officer Evaluation Report. I have a vague idea how to load a howitzer, and no idea how to aim one. I could "figure it out" if I needed, even better would be an experienced person to show it to me before I tried it. As for the Bradley, the sighting system used on it is different from the Abrams that after Aiming I would simply have to hold the triggers down and follow the tracers. But all these are "Crew Served" Operated buy more than one individual Someone loads it someone Aims it. None of them Are "Sniper Weapons" The M2 HB cal .50 is also considered to be Crew Served It weighs 86 pounds is either mounted on a Tripod or a Vehicle. By the way "the pig M60" has been replaced by the M240B it is heavier but is more durable and has faster cyclic rate of fire. Easier to Field strip too. Same Ammo. Point of this Post. maybe an "Adventurer" could Jump in a Tank (Easy to Figure out) and make the big gun work, But I bet he could not serve a Howitzer without somebody watching and telling him what to do at least the first time or 2. Maybe after, but he would never be an expert on either without proper training. HOw Do I know?... I was A Tanker for 11 years. After a Break in service I am back in as Mechanic serving a light Artillery Battalion of M119A2. They let me Shoot it. It's a different world. The Fire Direction Center "aims" the gun for you. Breech on the Tank gun Closes for you when you load, the howitzer does not. you put in shell and charge and then close the breech. The devil is in the details. They both go boom. But they operate different. They have a differing mission. However, The Mechanised Artillery guys have no trouble operating the light field piece. Just As the M60 tanker had no problem switching to the Abrams or Back. Adventurers should be kept away from Specificied weapons for ease of play, But he should never assume he knows how to operate a highly technical weapon system. I would Break it down this way 1 Heavy Weapon Projectile "Aim, What you see is what you get" 2 Heavy Weapon Artillery (Indirect fire, target is observed by another Character who is telling the operator where to put the bullets via radio) 3 Mortars, same as Arty completly differing Mechanism same result. Smaller Caliber shorter range etc 4 Heavy Weapon Rocket. (Whole different world.) They usualy are guided by rader, wire, radio, laser or something. 5 Heavy Weapon Beam. Easiest one to learn, point and shoot no difference for Ammo. Each one is a Seperate Skill. I know people dont want to make the game more complex, but These things are Different. As Far as Snipers, Its more of a sub proffesion of the Infantry a "Special Skillset" like Airborn or Air Assault Markmenship is more like what you are talking about. Being a better shot, should be require extra training. Although I would say its not always Military Training. Big Game Hunters and sport target shooters for example would need to learn those same skills. I know Fathers who have taught thier sons and daughters those same skills and some are as well trained as military or police snipers. The bombing starts in five minutes. |
