 March 19, 2010 - 7:34am | I was curious about large caliber projectile weapons. If I had a character who was the SF equivalent modern day special forces sniper, what sort of weapon would he be using? I assumed the auto weapons from SF were fairly small bore weapons. Smaller even then 9mm. How do you account for 50 cal. rifles? And what about small caliber hold out pistols versus a .45? |
 March 19, 2010 - 5:01pm | For a .50 cal sniper rifle, you could split the difference between the recoiless rifle and the auto rifle for damage. The range would be comparable to the recoiless, as would the weight and cost. The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
 March 19, 2010 - 5:46pm | Sounds about right Georgie. There are some large caliber pistol options in the SFman. There are also a few sniper rifles in the SFman. Aiming allows you to multiply damage to a stationary target by your skill level. My personal favorite is the Gauss sniper rifle. Not a large caliber round but high velocity. At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
 March 19, 2010 - 6:04pm | You're going to hate me for this, but Zebulon's guide listed auto rifle and pistol ammon in SF at 5.56mm. I find this strange because most NATO rifles use 5.56mm, but 9mm is a more common for pistols. Although there is a pistol made by the Belgians that fires a 5.7mm round. But just calling it a 5.7 or 5.56mm is misleading because a .22 long rifle round is 5.56mm, the rifle round has a longer cartridge giving that .22 round a lot more powerful. But I don't think I'd rate a .50 sniper rifle as near a recoiless rifle. More like a single shot from a heavy machine gun, which is what the .50 cal sniper rifle basically is. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
March 19, 2010 - 7:16pm | And what exactly is a recoiless rifle? |
 March 19, 2010 - 8:19pm | It is an anti-tank weapon. A small cannon. Have you seen Blackhawk Down? if you have there is a truck that has one mounted on the bed. Here's a link. scroll down to the SPG-9 http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title=Black_Hawk_Down |
 March 19, 2010 - 8:43pm | You're going to hate me for this, but Zebulon's guide listed auto rifle and pistol ammon in SF at 5.56mm. I find this strange because most NATO rifles use 5.56mm, but 9mm is a more common for pistols. I'd be willing to bet that that zebs statement stemmed from the fact that many players and GMs just swapped ammo from the auto pistol to the auto rifle as being interchangable. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 March 20, 2010 - 2:08pm | Seems to me any sniper rifle would fire a single round from the belts that a machine gun uses. Then keep in mind, via the damage ratings of SF weapons, the average character with a skeinsuit can survive a point blank burst from a machine gun... |
March 20, 2010 - 2:36pm | @billygoat. The recoilless from the Blackhawk down movie would technically be a gyro jet weapon, wouldn't it? I thought recoilless rifles were projectile. Or is it that the sf recoilless are like miniature howitzers? |
March 20, 2010 - 3:02pm | That's really the problem, in the real world recoiless rifles are some times refered to as bazookas. But that is really a misleading term. Basically recoiless rifle is a shoulder fired light cannon, it fires a projectile from a cartridge through a tube, the cartridge is ejected after firing. A bazooka or rocket launcher fires a rocket and there is no cartridge to eject. Which creates a problem for terms if some one makes a cassless recoiless rifle, but most modern armies use rocket launchers now anyways. I'd think a possible balance for a sniper rifle is you could rate it as all the damage from a burst from an auto-rifle in a single shot. This would make a semi-auto sniper rifle a nasty threat, 5d10 per round. For sniper head shots, the amount of damage a helmet can take will be of great importance. Although having played another game like Heavy Gear, lasers have become the prefered sniper weapon. They have range over projectiles, are quiet, can be made in the infra-red spectrum and over land based weapons have zero travel time making them more accurate. And for SF you could dial that laser up to full power and cut some one in half with a 20d10 shot. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
March 20, 2010 - 6:15pm | @ Indigo Fom Wikipedia "The typical recoilless gun functions very much like a conventional gun. The projectile and propellant are supplied as a single round and loaded into the breech. When fired, however, instead of all the propellant blast following the projectile out the barrel, a large portion is allowed to escape to the rear, gaining a rearward directed momentum which is nearly equal to the forward momentum of the projectile. This balance of momenta ensure that the momentum of the rifle/projectile/exhaust gas system is conserved without imparting much momentum (recoil) to the rifle itself." "Unlike a rocket launcher, which fires fin-stabilized rockets from a smooth bore, recoilless rifle rounds resemble conventional artillery shells. They generally have a pre-engraved rifling band to engage the rifled launch tube, spin-stabilizing the projectile, hence the term "rifle". The "case" area of the shell can be perforated to vent the propellant gases which are then directed to the rear, as the base of the shell disintegrates." From Alpha Dawn "A recoilless rifle is a heavy weapon that must be mounted on a tripod or a swivel mount to fire. It fires an exploding shell that causes 12d10 points of damage if it hits. Only one shell can be fired per turn, and loading another shell takes one turn." "A gyrojet pistol is a large handgun. It shoots miniature, self-propelled rockets that cause 2d10 points of damage when they explode." So there you have it One fires rockets the other fires shells. That is the distinction. |
March 20, 2010 - 6:29pm | Yeah, I had already figured the Heavy Laser for the beam weapon sniper rifle. My thought on the projectile version was how much it would suck for a sniper to have established himself and waited a tremendous amount of time only to see that tale-tell shiny aura of an albedo screen. Granted, it could be an inertia screen, but they give out more quickly and aren't as commonly used. And from a mile away, who really cares if they hear you? (flashy toys are cool, but real toys make noise!) I like the thought of the 5d10 (auto burst dmg), but consider that one bullet making successful contact between a persons eyes would be an automatic kill. And yet, it would only score a max of 50 points damage. Many pc’s and npc’s have closer to 70 stamina points. Would it be too much to just say a successful hit is an automatic kill? Or should it be more along the lines of something like that if the hit was easily made (with more than 20% to spare) it is an auto kill and if it is a hit but not more than 20% to spare it wasn’t a clean hit and thus only does the 5d10? |
March 20, 2010 - 7:00pm | I took a look at how WOTC handled the M2HB and the Stoner SR-50. They list them as the same damage in Weapons Locker. So I would think that you could give the sniper rifle the 10d10 damage as the machine gun listed in Alpha Dawn. |
March 20, 2010 - 8:27pm | Concerning sniper one shot kills- Why not take the martial arts nerve combat subskill from AD and use that for the auto kill. Its a fairly simple mechanic that we already use, (though in implies a new skill- sniper) the better the sniper the more likely the kill shot. its not perfect but its simple to impliment. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 21, 2010 - 2:56am | "sniper" skill...I like that idea Jed. Maybe even throw in a small bonus to hit applicable only at extreme ranges, something like +5/level (meaning only -50 to hit at extreme range at sniper-LVL:6 instead of -80 compared to unmodified -40 at long range). |
March 21, 2010 - 5:26am | I was up way too late last night looking through old thread and I found one on snipers. http://starfrontiers.us/node/2895 A lot of different ideas there too. I don't recall it being in the earlier Frontiersman so I'll have to re-read it later. But I like the idea of a multiplier to damage based on weapons skill level for military psa. |
March 21, 2010 - 7:17am | I would make sniper skill to be just the training to "snipe" and it also requires skill with a type of weapon so that you sniper skill is just one skill but it will work with whatever type of weapon you are skilled with except thrown and melee of course. The danger here is an NPC can use this same skill against a PC- but only a foolish GM will suddenly announce "Head shot by sniper Joes player is dead." that would pretty much kill the game. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 21, 2010 - 7:19am | Long range shooting is primarily dependent on three things: the maximum effective range of the weapon and round, the power of the scope, and the shooter's knowledge of how atmospheric conditions will affect the round. Over open sites, I'm a good shot with the M16 out to 250m (i.e. I never missed a stationary silhouette target at this range or less during qualifying, but targets beyond were as often missed as not). However, with my first shot of the M24 (a Remington 700 Army sniper rifle) I hit a 4x4 at a range of 1000m in a light crosswind (less then 10mph, blowing right to left). Basically I'm saying that the canon rules can deal with this. First you define the weapon and ammunition, including rate of fire, damage, and effective range. Then you put a scope on it, reducing the range penalties by one category. Lastly, figure in an Aimed Shot (which a sniper MUST take) and that -80 extreme range shot becomes a -40 (scope) which becomes a -25 (aiming) which a good sniper (level 6 skill + DEX > 70 at least) will hardly notice. Plus, think of the fun when the sniper tries that extreme range shot and misses! Although, I do like the idea of using the martial arts knockout rules. Perhaps have a Sniper School that costs 6-10 XP with a minimum requirement of level 6 weapon skill. The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
March 21, 2010 - 9:31am | I agree that the current rules are fine for the snipers shot. My only concern was that a hit, even at max damage would not be enough to kill most targets. We talked about making the damage equal to that of an auto rifle burst (5d10) or machine gun burst (10d10). But a recoilless rifle is 12d10 and a rocket launcher is 15d10. I don't want to start a debate about mechanics issues. But considering that even a direct hit from a rocket launcher may not kill a target, I don't think just adding a couple extra dice is the best way to determine the results of a sniper shot. If the same guy grabs his .50 and starts shooting from the hip in desperation, it shouldn't do 10d10. Thus, I feel that it would be more related to skill. I wouldn't want to add or rearange any more things than needed. That is the reason I'd rather give a damage multiplier based on weapons skill level for snipe shots only. |
March 21, 2010 - 10:31am | I see. Of course, this speaks towards the age old question of hitting a target vs. the quality of the hit. The 'to hit' roll ONLY determines if the target will take damage. It's in the damage roll that determines the quality. So yes, in order add sniper realism, you will need to add damage dice and/or multipliers. Keep in mind that game balance is maitained via the 'to hit' roll. Higher level characters will hit more often. When you start throwing extra damage dice in too, you threaten game balance, as jedion357 warned. I think that we all agree with you about the want to add realism, but you must way it vs. the cost in game balance and overall enjoyment. The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
March 21, 2010 - 11:47am | Here are some ideas but they may bog down your game You may try hit location (Head shot = death) You might do something like if the target loses >50% of STA, save vs death |
March 21, 2010 - 1:03pm | I think Jedion's idea of the MA "nerve damage" roll is the one to use, but rather than knock-out any to hit roll coming up as such would do double damage or maximum damage or something like that. |
March 21, 2010 - 5:45pm | After reading everyone's comment heres the conclusions I drew 1. The rules as is will handle a sniper shot at extreme range just fine- as the arguement was presented I buy that 2. the is a concern that the damage involved wont replicate sniper fire, meaning that damage dealt isn't enough to overcome STA and defenses so no one shot one kill- I agree with some reservations to that 3. we dont want slow the game or unballance it 4. we dont want to bog the game I would propose no new rule mechanic for snipers but a one time 10 exp expenditure to attend sniper school once you're level 4 or higher with a shooting skill. It confers a max damage for a shot in the same way martial arts confers a knock out. (my thinking on making it lvl 4 to qualify is that you end up with different quality of snipers with level 6 being the most elite in the profession). Example: level 4 laser sniper with DEX of 40 would deal maximum damage on a 01-06, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60. That translates to 12% chance for max damage. Some built in limits- the max damage only applies if a sniper is taking an aimed shot. Could require that the one time 10exp cost for sniper school only applies to one weapon but for another 3 exp a new weapon can be added to that if its at level 4 or higher. Finally- sniper school will be limited- only be available through the top mercenary outfits and regular military Its not a new mechanic- just a new application of an old mechanic, somewhat adresses the not enough damage to kill outright issue (and frankly with a laser it will be), should not bog the game and I cant see how it would unbalance the game. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 21, 2010 - 8:16pm | Jedi, you are a freakin' genius. I think that is a very workable system. Time to write it up and submit it to the Frontiersman.  The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
 March 21, 2010 - 9:18pm | Nice idea Jed. I was thinking about the Sniper skill and targeted shots. The Sniper skill would provide a bonus of +5% per level on targeted shots only. Each body location would then have an associated penalty. I pulled some tables from the Fallout pnp rpg that I have thought about converting to StarFrontiers. Targeted Shot Penalty (Ranged) 0% Torso -20% Legs -30% Arms -40% Head -60% Eyes Then they give each area a percentage bonus towards becoming a critical. For instance a Head shot has a +25% Critical Chance Bonus. Then that particular critical would result in triple damage. There is another random damage table for untargeted critical hits. But it needs some work. I want to combine bits from it and the Shot in the Arm article from Dragon. Maybe one of these days I will actually get that done. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
March 22, 2010 - 3:49am | Works for me. |
March 22, 2010 - 5:47am | @ rum- so targeted shot penalties but if the targeted shot hits there is a sniper skill bonus for critical hit thus expanding the range I can go with trageted shots as an optional rule especially for those using hit locations (which I have not used yet) in fact targeted shots targeting specific body parts will absolutely need to be provided for in any write up as hit locations and ablative damage rules seem to be rising in popularity. But adding yet another expansion of the critical range, which is what using the martial arts nerve combat mechanic is- an expansion of critical range in that you're guarenting max damage. with sniper as a one time purchase there is no levels, the levels for figuring the expanded crit range come from weapons skill. I'll take a look at shot in the arm tonight I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 22, 2010 - 9:10am | @ rum- so targeted shot penalties but if the targeted shot hits there is a sniper skill bonus for critical hit thus expanding the range Well, the skill itself does not impart a bonus for critical hit. Its the location that does. That way even someone without the Sniper skill can make a targeted shot and have the same chance for a critical, they just wont have the same chance to make the actual hit. with sniper as a one time purchase there is no levels, the levels for figuring the expanded crit range come from weapons skill. Yeah. I like that. Lot less cluttered than what I am working on. I always thought that higher skill levels should have some more benefit than just increasing the base chance to hit. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
March 22, 2010 - 10:16am | @ Rum: I C now so you get a hit on a targeted roll and because its a head shot there is a 25% that its a critical? Ie meaning the mook is dead? I would say that go with one form of critical or another not have 2 forms of critical hit the targeted location plus the max damage calculated the same was a martial arts nerve combat is The problem is it becomes cluttered. Example: a sniper gets a to hit roll which of 10 which is a hit and max damage but since it was a targeted head shot there is a 25% of auto kill (maybe it isn't that cluttered since you're no longer rolling damage since it is the max, but it feels cluttered) I would be for the KISS rule on this Option 1. criticals are base of the martial arts nerve combat rule (figured for the weapons kill of the shooter), this is good as a really good to hit roll means max damage or effectively a crit since the bell curve usually ensures 1/2 the max possible. Plus this one applies to all aimed shots whether targeted on a specific location or not. or Option 2. targeted location combined with aimed shot is a specific chance (25% for head, etc.) that a successful to hit on a specific location (which carries a penalty on the to hit roll) will generate a second roll to see if its 2x or 3x damage. then you roll damage. It would work in simulating a sniper taking out mook with one shot. it just doesn't account for a straight aimed shot under standard AD rules and almost forces you to us hit location or ablative damage rules. 3rd option why not take option 1 but if a DM is allowing targeted shots or using hit location or such in his game then any to hit roll that was an aimed and targeted shot and came up with one of the numbers from the nerve combat rule mechanic (which is +1/ lvl of skill to the crit range plus any number that hits and ends in a 0) does 2x max damage. no extra table of %s needed, rolling a good to hit roll tells you whats happening with the shot. The problem with 3rd option is that the % chance of that crit on a targeted shot is low- since the target location carries a penalty (I would say make it a flat penalty of -20% no matter what the target location is, for simplicity) so with an extra penalty lowering a to hit chance that will eliminate numbers (those ending in 0) that could generate the crit. So I'd actually be for having it be +1%/level of skill to the standard crit range plus all numbers that hit that end in 0 plus all doubles that hit. Then you could eliminate the extra rolling for x2 or x3 damage. so that an aimed shot on the expanded crit range is max damage but an aimed and targeted chest or head shot is x2 max damage on the expanded crit range. 4th option I was thinking about was option 1 but if the sniper declares a head shot and the crit damage gets past the defenses of the target the target is dead reguardless of his STA. again simple but I dont like this option. A save option? Why? beacuse if this rule exists for a PC it also exists for an NPC and a PC could be on the recieving end. What do you think of a INT save for 1/2 damage? which again is a standard rule mechanic for a lot of grenade saves. NOTE: I'm just trying to hash this out and see if we have a concessus before proposing to write a sniper rule and I am offering to write and sumbit a sniper rule with thanks being mentioned to the people who helped brain storm this. PS:sorry for highjacking the thread I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 22, 2010 - 10:16am | Here is how to rule on head shots. A character can have a stamina of 60, but let's face a head can not take 60 points of damage, this ends up spreading the stamina points over the body. The torso can be 50% of the total stamina, and divide the rest up amoung the extremities. This makes head shots a real threat, and should encourage more characters to wear helmets to protect the ol'brain box. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
March 22, 2010 - 10:28am | Here is how to rule on head shots. A character can have a stamina of 60, but let's face a head can not take 60 points of damage, this ends up spreading the stamina points over the body. The torso can be 50% of the total stamina, and divide the rest up amoung the extremities. This makes head shots a real threat, and should encourage more characters to wear helmets to protect the ol'brain box. but that not really the way the game mechanics work- you just mark a skien suit and a defensive screen on the character sheet no real need to specify that the PC is wearing a helmet. we'd have to stat up helmet for x amount of STA I'd have to look at the hit location system and the ablative damage systems again but I think they alread have something for handling shots to specific locations. ultimately if we write something I think it needs to be base lined as compatible with AD and have options for the other systems like ablative damage and hit location. Honestly I have enough to do as GM for an on line game that I'm not that interested in anything more complicated than AD rules - I even fudge the turn structure to a simple D&D style I go- you go turn. So AD still needs to be a base line for a new rule and options included for more complication for those who want it. On top of that simple is better even in the options. IMO I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
