Ship based Rocket weapons and their pre-reqs????

jedion357's picture
January 29, 2010 - 10:37pm
Can anyone explain to me why a rocket weapons gunner (the KH skill) must first qualify with projectile weapons at a level of skill that would make him an expert shooter in the infantry.

I have always thought that Gyrojet weapons skill was more appropriate than projectile and in fact why not dump projectile weapons and just base the pre-req off of Gyrojet weapons

I should say that part of what bothers me is that the US navy took boys off the farm in Kansas and with a little training they were firing the main guns on a battle ship- no level 4 pistol shooting ability there.

The above is part of the reason I've totally embraced: "Spacer Skills Revisited" from SFM #10  with its graduate requirements allowing a drall straight off the farm on Inner Reach be inducted into the militia and trained upto level 2 beam weapons (AD skill) and then take lvl 1 energy weapons (KHs skill) and then post the little munchkin to a ship to help defend against the pirates from Outer Reach.

Personally I think we should just make Gyrojet weapons the pre-req like Beam weapons is for Energy Weapons Gunnery.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
January 30, 2010 - 11:41am
Sounds like a logical progression.

In FS we split personal and huge weapons into "Marksmanship" and "Gunnery" with no pre-req.
You purchase each skill multiple times to acquire a higher skill level.

For example;

Marksmanship: Pistols (covers all pistols)
Marksmanship: Beam (covers all beam type weapons - pistol, rifle, heavy)
Gunnery: Rocket (any weapon that is self-propelled mounted on a vehicle, ship or emplacement)

jedion357's picture
January 31, 2010 - 6:29am
Sounds like some over lap there being good with pistols would cover beam pistols or you could be a beam specialist; am I correct?

I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Sargonarhes's picture
January 31, 2010 - 10:00am
Well technically I don't think fireing a ships weapons has anything to do with knowing how to use a sidearm. In fact the mechanics of them would be very different, so I would understand that a rocket weapons gunner shouldn't need a pre-req weapons skill no more that a ship's laser gunner would need to be proficient with a beam sidearm either. Technically operating ship weapons would be more of a computer skill than anything else.
In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.

Inigo Montoya's picture
Inigo Montoya
January 31, 2010 - 10:24am

I've often wondered why the human (sorry, sentient) element gives a ships weapons a bonus, rather than a negative modifier. Don't security bots usually have a better chance to hit than most characters? Of course, I should have looked that up before posting this...

Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
January 31, 2010 - 1:49pm

You can take a a skill in "all pistols" which grants +10/lvl with any weapon considered a pistols (even rubber band pistols). If you take the "Beam" skill you can use beam pistols, rifles and heavy weapons equally well but will not be skilled in weapons that are projectile, gyrojet, sonic, etc...


I agree that sidearm skills don't mix with ship weapon skills. But I like it in SF because it gives my character a progression I associate with SF. (Even though KH seemed to be an afterthought system).

jedion357's picture
February 2, 2010 - 11:16pm
I could hang with Computers being a pre-req for ships weaponry.- it would shift the emphasis of the choice of skills- though if you use the "skilled frontier" article of SFman issue 9 then you do away with the pre-reqs.

 I mixed the "Skilled Frontier" article from issue 9 and the "spacer skills revisited" from issue 10 as house rules for my online game.

As I look at the history of WW2 and think, I continue to question my house rules rulings I made in that game. But once a game is set in motion it would be tough to change it.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Imperial Lord's picture
Imperial Lord
February 3, 2010 - 10:43am
Think of the issue from this perspective:  playability and game balance.

Yes, it is not realistic.  I don't think that is why they wrote the rule like they did.  The idea was to allow the Military PSA characters to have some fun operating ship systems.  Myself, I don't mind the rule as it is.

However, if you feel really strongly about it, feel free to change it.  The Ship Skill pre-reqs are VERY unpopular around here, and I understand why.  This has been discussed before.  I'm not really a big fan of them, either, but I like to keep them around to make KH adventures on the "Advanced" side of the equation.

My natural Star Frontiers progression goes like this:
Levels 1-3 :  PCs walk around doing stuff mostly for other people.
Levels 4-5 :  PCs drive around in cool vehicles (possibly with their own company.)
Level 6/KH1:      PCs get a ship - either their own or they crew someone else's.

As a result, the space ship situation is a quite a ways off.  For some players and refs, that's really bothersome.  Some people like to have spaceships flying around from AD Level 1.  That's not my cup of mud, but I respect that opinion.  In fact, I may change my opinion on this someday and join the "ship from AD Level 1" lobby.

I view spaceship adventures as a form of reward.  Sometimes it's about the journey, not the destination... 

Sargonarhes's picture
February 10, 2010 - 7:39pm
I like how your progression goes Imperial Lord, it does seem to have a natural flow to it. But I've grown into other game systems that treat small arms skills as completely independant of gunnery skills, which means players have to really think hard about what skills they want to work on more.

But as we can run our games as we want, I must admit I like your progression and could make use of it in some other way. It would be like our modern day fighter pilots and their jets. The aircraft are all designed by people with a bachlor's degree, flown by people college level education and maintained by people with a high school education. Pilots tend to be officers in the first place, so even in SF it wouldn't be any different really. No lvl 1 trooper is going to be allowed to fly the dropship after all.
In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.

jedion357's picture
February 12, 2010 - 7:54am
I've been pondering this for awhile now and i've come to some conclusions-

1. I like some requirements for taking star ship level skills.

2. I dont see the need for lvl 6 to go star ship skills.

3. Im thinking to use the minimum requirements in the article spacer skills revisited to qualify for spacer skills but after that you can just advance that skill as you wish with no worries about advancing the pre-reqs

What this means is that An astrogator would have to be lvl 2 computers but once he had astrogation he'd just advance that and ignore computers if he wished.

Also think the gunnery skills should be changed to beam 1 & comp 1 or for rocket gunnery gyrojet 1 & comp 1

Engineer- tech 2 works for me

Pilot- (under AD rules Tech 2 & Comp 1 but under another system Atmospheric Vehicles 2 & Comp 1)

Once you had a star ship skill you can advance it as you wish- it allows for a classic AD start (2 skills and a tool kit) but since most players want to fly the pretty star ship they'll get there in a short ammount of time. and not  groan under progressing to lvl 6

The side effect of this is that everyone will be walking around with some computer ability and a few people will be computer wiz's and that would sort of mirrors RL. I think everyone being able to querry a computer will be a good thing in game as well, though a GM would have to make provisions to ensure the computer wiz is rellevant still, ie the bad guys have a high level computer that is security protected and your only hope of accessing it is the lvl 4-6 computer geek in the team.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
February 15, 2010 - 10:24pm
Imperial Lord wrote:
Think of the issue from this perspective:  playability and game balance

Whether anyone can agree to the pre-reqs or not, balance is exactly the reason for the Gyrojet/Projectile pre-req layouts.

Considering how Energy Gunnery calls for LVL:6 Beam Weapons ( 3+6+9+12+15+18 = 63XP) it balances out well for a character with the "less popular" non beam skills (3+6+9+12+3+6 = 39), you spend less to get the ship skill but on the same token you won't be using the skill as much --- i.e. rocket weapons are MPO weapons while the beam weapons can be fired both offensively and defensively, rockets have shorter ranges so they won't be utilized as often versus the beam weapon's longer range and "okay he's really far but I'll shoot anyways" mindset, and you eventually run out of ammuntion with the rocket weapons.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

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