Cool real life vehicles

ArtMic's picture
ArtMic
December 19, 2009 - 10:40pm
I spend alot of time looking around the web for silly things some times I come up with some cool hits. So I  like to share one with you folks.

Gold is for the mistress-silver for the maid-copper for the craftsman cunning at his trade.But Iron-Cold Iron- is master of them all
Comments:

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 20, 2009 - 5:04am
DISCLAIMER
 this thread delves right into my favorite non-gaming pastime...



I could list a dozen flaws on that design, but will instead simply state the most obvious: There's no place for a RIDER Foot in mouth


Semi-related, here's a concept bike from Honda:

Google their all new 2010 VFR1200 and you'll see some of that DNA


Here's the one I wish they'd belt out, the EVO-6


A flat-six motor a la GL1800 Gold Wing (their "Cadillac" touring bike) mated with enough raw street fighter inspired styling to satisfy anyone's inner hooligan.

The same motor some company in France borrowed for this, the "open cockpit" Tron cycle:


Next up is the official "It's kind of cool, but why?!" category, the Yamaha Tesseract:




Which actually makes much more sense having been preceded by this home brewed abomination from Chrysler:

Yes, that's the Dodge Viper V-10 motor. Yes, the rest of it was also made by Dodge. Yes, that's four wheels mounted in such a manner that everytime you lean into a turn, unlike the Tesseract above, two wheels are up in the air. Fortunately, it had a pre-production run low enough to count on one hand and was never followed up by any actual production beyond the few prototypes made (and consequently sold for upwards of 2.5 million). Yes, it's not possible to get more hideous.

And yes, this is what they were doing to promote automotive technology Innocent before asking for bail-out money. Embarassed

I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Will's picture
Will
December 20, 2009 - 10:10am
Personally, I'd love to see Setsuna's bike from Gundam 00.

The EVO-6's lines are clean, but I don't see the Tesseract as being anything other than eye-candy on some big budget c-punk flick.

The Chrysler one...WTF?! It looks like a reject from a Mad Max movie.

Shadow wrote:
And yes, this is what they were doing to promote automotive technology Innocent before asking for bail-out money. Embarassed

Jesus, my tax dollars at work. Bet they had the gall to try and turn those POSs in for the $4,900 rebate....

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 20, 2009 - 3:23pm
Quote:
Bet they had the gall to try and turn those POSs in for the $4,900 rebate....


1> Not after paying $2.5 ,ill for one

2> They didn't qualify. Despite all the power those Viper mills produce (i.e. gas gulping), they get surprisingly good fuel economy when all they have to push is their own weight plus a rider...
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Will's picture
Will
December 20, 2009 - 4:31pm

Still and all, I would not spend two and a half cents on those fugly things, let alone 2.5 mil.

Each his own, I guess.

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Sargonarhes's picture
Sargonarhes
December 20, 2009 - 4:39pm
I'll go one better and ask if any one has ever seen the anime "Venus Wars" and the famous monobikes they were riding around on. And then show you this crazy idea.

The bombardier embrio



In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.

Will's picture
Will
December 20, 2009 - 4:43pm
Hope it's got a gyro, or it's going to be one short ride....

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Sargonarhes's picture
Sargonarhes
December 20, 2009 - 4:55pm
Yes, it has a gyro. Works similar to a segway from what I've read. I wonder how fast i will go if you lean really far forward?
In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.

ArtMic's picture
ArtMic
December 20, 2009 - 7:05pm
Thems some sweet rides there!
Gold is for the mistress-silver for the maid-copper for the craftsman cunning at his trade.But Iron-Cold Iron- is master of them all

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 21, 2009 - 3:10am

There's a few of those "moto-Segways" out there. Another one has tandem wheels (a la Segway) without the forward "training wheel" and looks a bit like the Ralph McQuarrie Darth Vader preproduction sketches...wish I could remember the name of it but it was made by some young Canadian right out of high school. My big concern is how efficiently will it brake, being leaned forward at whatever speed it's travelling at...

{EDIT} Took a bit of googling, but I found it:
ananova


Then there's various monocycles floating around, which Lucas was inspired to incorporate for General Greivous' ride:

I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 21, 2009 - 3:31am
In the vein of four wheeled motorcycles and monocycles...we can't leave out the trikes.

For decades, people have been hacking up old Beetles, Karman Ghias, Squarebacks, and Vanagons and welding motorcycle fronts onto self-fabbed or aftermarket transaxle-frames. In 2007, we almost recieved the GX-3 from the Farvenügen factory, a VW OEM reverse trike (aka tadpole trike) with what would have been a very affordable $18K MSRP:


Bombardier stepped up after that project flopped and belted out the Can Am Spyder in smaller dimensions for $20K the following year:


For the past decade, anyone with a lot more coinage could get DOT approval for Canada's "Campagna T-Rex", who assembled an enclosed tadpole cage around contracted Kawasaki Ninja motors for $40K and up:


...and back to more traditional trikes, automotive V-8 powered two and three wheeler manufacturer Boss Hoss has a 57 Bel Aire model:


...which was inspired by famed bike builder from both yesteryear and today, Arlen Ness (who currently resides with the "other" American motorcycle company, Victory) who belted out his famed "Nesstalgia" theme bike in the early 1990s, utilizing a few authentic 57 Bel Aire parts (such as the headlight bezel and the rear fin trim pieces):
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Will's picture
Will
December 21, 2009 - 10:03am
Wow...cool trikes.

You could almost see the Bombardier trike in a sci-fi movie sometime in the future.

I'd love to have the '57 Bel Aire trike.

The GX-3 would've been nice, if it had any space to stow groceries in.

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Will's picture
Will
December 21, 2009 - 10:04am
BTW, what's everyone's take on the "Smart" Cars?!

Actually useful, or "where's the key you stick in the back of this thing?"

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Sargonarhes's picture
Sargonarhes
December 21, 2009 - 6:02pm
Some people may think highly of the smart car, yet it's just a city car and only useful in warmer climates. With such small wheels and low grow clearance it's useless on rural road, and possible even dangerous to even try to atempt driving them any way away from the ideal road conditions. With little if no cargo room as well.

I find the smart car lacking in a great deal of things.

I'm a fan of 4x4 and off road type vehicles myself and would prefer something like this.


Oh yeah, I'd love it if VW made something like that. Or even this Suzuki



These are my kind of cars.
In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.

Will's picture
Will
December 22, 2009 - 12:24am
I'll take VW's four-wheeled offerings over Suzuki's personally. Say what you will, but one flip in a Samurai years ago convinced me.

'Sides, the red one's much nicer looking....

PS: I'll weigh in with my opinion concerning the Smart Car, once I've heard from everyone who's going to respond.  

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Rum Rogue's picture
Rum Rogue
December 22, 2009 - 6:36am
Smart Car
Alright, I dont have one, never been in one.  A buddy has one that he drives to work every day about 60 miles round-trip.  And once a month he makes a 400 mile round-trip jaunt.  Now this is all interstate and highway.  Gas milage is great, I dont recall what he gets, but I know it is better than what anyone else at drill is driving.  The trip takes him from Eastern Kansas to North Central Kansas; plenty of wide open spaces, and lots of wind.  He swears he doesnt have to fight the wind much.  When passing a semi, he has no problem with wind currents. The vehicle has no issuse with 85 mph.  I dont know how fast he drives, but he has regular races where he tries to pass someone and they speed up thinking his Smart Car cant keep up, yeah, he says he has no propblem passing them. 
I will have to forward this conversation to him and see if can give you a decent review.  That is if anyone is interested.
Time flies when your having rum.

Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time.

Sargonarhes's picture
Sargonarhes
December 22, 2009 - 7:27am
I flipped my Samurai years ago, but that's because it slid up an embankment. The kicker was I rolled it back on it's wheels and drove it off. It still passed inspection and a drove it for a while after that. The Suzuki's shear toughness has endeared me to them, although I currently drive a Toyota RAV4.

But here's another concept ATV, it's not full sized just a 1 seater. But for a French vehicle it's rather cool.


For it to really work as an ATV it should have bigger tires though.
In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.

Will's picture
Will
December 22, 2009 - 9:19am
It is cool, but no cargo space, and definitely not wheelchair friendly.

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

ArtMic's picture
ArtMic
December 22, 2009 - 7:02pm
Anyone have some Explore pics? I want to build a 3D model of one but only have 2 pics ( one from thAD book and the other from the cover of modual)
Gold is for the mistress-silver for the maid-copper for the craftsman cunning at his trade.But Iron-Cold Iron- is master of them all

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 22, 2009 - 7:10pm

"Will" wrote:
You could almost see the Bombardier trike in a sci-fi movie sometime in the future.


It was briefly featured in the second Transformers movie, and IIRC GIJoe as well. 

Quote:
The GX-3 would've been nice, if it had any space to stow groceries in.


Well, it does have a passenger seat...there's actually a storage compartment between the grill and engine compartment. Ironically, the designer of the GX3 left Chrysler and went to Volkswagen after belting out the Tomahawk abortion. For the sake of the American economy, it's a shame that didn't happen the other way around.

Quote:
BTW, what's everyone's take on the "Smart" Cars?!


It's the first car that, by comparison, makes a motorcycle safe.


Seriously though, I can appreciate the concept. It would be nice if vehicles like this could take off here. Sadly, American infrastructure will probably be the car's demise. After all, before it could be marketed here, Daimler Benz nearly had to double the displacement (the original Smart in Europe displaces 599-660cc depending on model year, bumped up to a full liter for the American version).


"Sargonarhes" wrote:
I'm a fan of 4x4 and off road type vehicles myself and would prefer something like this


I've seen those before, the Manx-ish dune buggy VW and the micro-Mack 'Zooki. Hummer actually had a preproduction micro-ute (at least micro by their standards) in the works before things went south for Government Motors. Probably the only vehicle that could have one-upped the Jeep Wrangler:




"Rum Rogue" wrote:
but he has regular races where he tries to pass someone and they speed up thinking his Smart Car cant keep up, yeah, he says he has no propblem passing them.


Having experienced this personally in a semi-related vein, I'd say your friend may be stretching things a bit.

Granted, I wasn't being "passed at speed" either, rather it was a dead on drag race from a stoplight. And I don't intend this to be anything resembling bravado, moreso considering the circumstances. After all, having beaten down slow with slow, there really isn't anything to brag about. Let me expand on that:

See, I had a guy in a Smart who wanted to race me on my "itty bitty two fitty"  (aka 250cc motorcycle). Now before we get into motorcycle versus car semantics, let me be the first to say that Honda's 250 Rebel (the bike I was on) is one of the slowest production motorcycles in North America (besting only Kawasaki's 125 Eliminator). Quarter mile times are in the 18s, 0-60 times hover around 12 seconds. So even by automotive standards, it's not fast.


It's also very quiet.


So when I heard the Smart car's engine wailing like a banshee, I knew the driver wasn't "letting me win".

Granted the 250 Rebel can outaccelerate a fair majority of four wheelers from a dead stop, once you hit about 60mph the four wheelers usually whip right on by, still stretching their legs while the Rebel is nearing the end of its powerband. That didn't happen with the Smart, the best he could manage was getting next to me briefly. And like the Smart, the Rebel tops out around 85mph (depending on rider weight, and I'm not exactly slim). I was doing about 75mph, pretty much at the end of aforementioned powerband (in other words, I'd need lots of long empty road to continue adding to that number), when I let off the throttle, and he was still in my mirrors wailing away.

And this isn't something I normally practice on city streets, but when I heard that motor wind up while the light was still red, my curiousity was piqued.

Now if your friend happens to own THIS particular Smart, or one with a parallel treatment, then I would say his claims are substantial. But like I said, having beaten slow with slow...

I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Rum Rogue's picture
Rum Rogue
December 22, 2009 - 7:22pm
Shadow Shack wrote:

"Rum Rogue" wrote:
but he has regular races where he tries to pass someone and they speed up thinking his Smart Car cant keep up, yeah, he says he has no propblem passing them.

Having experienced this personally in a semi-related vein, I'd say your friend may be stretching things a bit. 

Now if your friend happens to own THIS particular Smart, or one with a parallel treatment, then I would say his claims are substantial. But like I said, having beaten slow with slow...

LOL. No he definately does not have that version of it. I should have elaborated on the "races", he was on the interstate and already passing someone when they decide its funny to keep him from passing by trying to match speed.  I dont know what the other vehicle was, but I will try to find out and clarify his story.

Time flies when your having rum.

Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time.

Georgie's picture
Georgie
December 22, 2009 - 7:41pm
I LOVE the old Samurais! Talk about tough little trucks (as I recall, it is basically a 7/8 scale Wiley's Jeep). I never rolled mine (but could have). I played pinball on an icy bridge with it once. Temporarily straighted out the one quarter panel that took 90% of the damage and drove away (after filing an accident report with the cops, of course). Later replaced that quarter panel with a bolt on after market part. Easiest car that I ever maintained. I took it (snow) "drift busting" across an open field only to discover one "drift" was actually piled dirt next to a ditch. Went airborne for a full car's length without a scratch. Used to use it to drag bigger cars out of ditches following lake effect snows in up-state NY for beer money. Had up to 80mph once while drafting off a semi somewhere west of Detroit, otherwise it would break 65 only going downhill with a tail wind. Small enough that it could be parked anywhere. The only real downside, it doesn't fit my 6'2" 200+ lbs. frame. LOL!

Now I also drive a RAV4, love it, but I really miss my Samurai.
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.    * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 22, 2009 - 9:22pm
"Rum Rogue" wrote:
I should have elaborated on the "races", he was on the interstate and already passing someone when they decide its funny to keep him from passing by trying to match speed.


I got that much out of it. Like I said, my experience was a drag race, which really isn't the same as a roll-on acceleration competition (which is what freeway passing would entail).

Still, knowing where my powerband drops off and where most autos are able to catch up (considering they still have available torque and power), that part wasn't happening either. See, I shift that bike into top gear at about those speeds (60-65mph) so it's pretty much done by then as far as available power goes (it'll pull to 70-75 depending on conditions and peter out afterwards), yet I was not only ahead but actually pulling away. So whatever 60mph roll on power is available on the Smart, it just wasn't happening as that's where it should have come on according to the friend's testimony. After all, if other cars are catching up/passing at that point...

I will say this much, the Smart is a light vehicle so it shouldn't take much coaxing to get one going. With the right motor, it could be a perfect car (re: the motorcycle engine conversion). Fortunately, the North American version doesn't come with the sub-liter mills (which incorporates an "electrical uphill assist" feature).

If they were to import the Roadster with a more potent mill, I could be more inclined to one:


...available with a convertible wagon rear end (a la 80s Nissan Pulsar)
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Will's picture
Will
December 23, 2009 - 12:27am
Shadow Shack wrote:

"Will" wrote:
You could almost see the Bombardier trike in a sci-fi movie sometime in the future.


It was briefly featured in the second Transformers movie, and IIRC GIJoe as well. 

Quote:
The GX-3 would've been nice, if it had any space to stow groceries in.


Well, it does have a passenger seat...there's actually a storage compartment between the grill and engine compartment. Ironically, the designer of the GX3 left Chrysler and went to Volkswagen after belting out the Tomahawk abortion. For the sake of the American economy, it's a shame that didn't happen the other way around.

Quote:
BTW, what's everyone's take on the "Smart" Cars?!


It's the first car that, by comparison, makes a motorcycle safe.


Seriously though, I can appreciate the concept. It would be nice if vehicles like this could take off here. Sadly, American infrastructure will probably be the car's demise. After all, before it could be marketed here, Daimler Benz nearly had to double the displacement (the original Smart in Europe displaces 599-660cc depending on model year, bumped up to a full liter for the American version).


"Sargonarhes" wrote:
I'm a fan of 4x4 and off road type vehicles myself and would prefer something like this


I've seen those before, the Manx-ish dune buggy VW and the micro-Mack 'Zooki. Hummer actually had a preproduction micro-ute (at least micro by their standards) in the works before things went south for Government Motors. Probably the only vehicle that could have one-upped the Jeep Wrangler:




"Rum Rogue" wrote:
but he has regular races where he tries to pass someone and they speed up thinking his Smart Car cant keep up, yeah, he says he has no propblem passing them.


Having experienced this personally in a semi-related vein, I'd say your friend may be stretching things a bit.

Granted, I wasn't being "passed at speed" either, rather it was a dead on drag race from a stoplight. And I don't intend this to be anything resembling bravado, moreso considering the circumstances. After all, having beaten down slow with slow, there really isn't anything to brag about. Let me expand on that:

See, I had a guy in a Smart who wanted to race me on my "itty bitty two fitty"  (aka 250cc motorcycle). Now before we get into motorcycle versus car semantics, let me be the first to say that Honda's 250 Rebel (the bike I was on) is one of the slowest production motorcycles in North America (besting only Kawasaki's 125 Eliminator). Quarter mile times are in the 18s, 0-60 times hover around 12 seconds. So even by automotive standards, it's not fast.


It's also very quiet.


So when I heard the Smart car's engine wailing like a banshee, I knew the driver wasn't "letting me win".

Granted the 250 Rebel can outaccelerate a fair majority of four wheelers from a dead stop, once you hit about 60mph the four wheelers usually whip right on by, still stretching their legs while the Rebel is nearing the end of its powerband. That didn't happen with the Smart, the best he could manage was getting next to me briefly. And like the Smart, the Rebel tops out around 85mph (depending on rider weight, and I'm not exactly slim). I was doing about 75mph, pretty much at the end of aforementioned powerband (in other words, I'd need lots of long empty road to continue adding to that number), when I let off the throttle, and he was still in my mirrors wailing away.

And this isn't something I normally practice on city streets, but when I heard that motor wind up while the light was still red, my curiousity was piqued.

Now if your friend happens to own THIS particular Smart, or one with a parallel treatment, then I would say his claims are substantial. But like I said, having beaten slow with slow...


That brings back memories...a friend's '73 Malibu(with, I believe, a 454 small block and no noz) versus a 2003 Mustang down a lonely stretch of Georgia Highway 247 one hot summer night back in '04.

My friend ended up with both pink slips, and just before the Pulaski County Sheriff's cruisers and the GSP interceptors came howling down the road.

Which would've been unfortunate, because as anyone knows, no matter how fast one's car is, he still can't outrun a radio....

As for the "Smart" car, the racing one looks good, but, still, there's next to no cargo space(meaning no room for groceries from Wally World), and it ain't wheelchair(or handicapped) friendly. There's also the problem of stuffing a 6'4", 250 lb white man with bad knees(me, in case anyone's curious) into the damn frickin' thing.

(and they're ugly as sin to boot....)

Now, with a convertible wagon rear end like that last pic Shadow posted, the cargo and wheelchair space(my ex's 19-year old daughter is multi-handicapped with mobility issues)would be present in spades, but my old '72 Maverick got better gas mileage[I think] just by me performing a regular tune-up(with the factory 250 straight six, that was an easy vehicle to service, better than the '77 Chevette I stupidly sold it for).

Honestly, people are amazed at what regular tune-ups do for gas mileage. Just changing the plugs alone does wonders.

Back to the Smarts and other hybrids. Shadow brought up one of the most potent arguments against such critters, that being the overriding American passion for speed and performance, which will almost always doom attempts to make vehicles cleaner and more fuel efficent, especially given that most American car owners are total f*kwits who think that oil changes are something which happen to other people.

Also, the cost. If hybrids and their ilk cost an arm, a leg and both the family jewels to own, or at least entail a ruinous five-year payment plan, that kind of defeats the purpose of having a hybrid, especially if the economy continues the way it is. Most people will just go for keeping their clunkers as roadworthy as possible, even if it means an investment in chewing gum and bailing wire.

Personally, I'd love to see the development of a practical, relatively affordable hydrogen-fuelled vehicle, even(or especially) with a two-stroke internal-combustion motor. Relatively cheap fuel, water vapor for emissions, and it would fill the American mania for performance and power.

Of course, that millenium is still far off, given current costs to develop the technology in the first place.  


  

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 23, 2009 - 5:36pm
"Will" wrote:
As for the "Smart" car, the racing one looks good, but, still, there's next to no cargo space(meaning no room for groceries from Wally World), and it ain't wheelchair(or handicapped) friendly. There's also the problem of stuffing a 6'4", 250 lb white man with bad knees(me, in case anyone's curious) into the damn frickin' thing.


We have a 6+ footer at work who is well over 300 pounds looking into a Smart. He's selling his Big Dog motorcycle for it. I just can't picture that combo. But considering what they want for a Smart out here ($20K at the dealers, $16,900 private party or dealer resale) I can at least digest selling the Big Dog to buy one...

 

About $32K new...

Quote:
the cargo and wheelchair space(my ex's 19-year old daughter is multi-handicapped with mobility issues)


Well, that explains the mini-van. Ain't no shame in buying what you need. Cool

Besides, Chrysler used to offer a sweet ground effects package for the Caravan, complete with rooftop rear air dam. I was real close to buying one back then (early 90s)...

Quote:
Honestly, people are amazed at what regular tune-ups do for gas mileage. Just changing the plugs alone does wonders.


Yep, I can immediately notice the difference on my 35HP motorcycle engines after changing the plugs. It always has a little more pep after that one, and my fuel economy resurfaces to 60mpg after the next fill up.

Quote:
Back to the Smarts and other hybrids. Shadow brought up one of the most potent arguments against such critters, that being the overriding American passion for speed and performance, which will almost always doom attempts to make vehicles cleaner and more fuel efficent


Sadly we as Americans have fallen victim to the "bigger is better" mantra, and it doesn't just affect the automotive market. You should see the motorcycle market these days, dealers and magazines are pushing 1500cc beasts as "mid sized/entry rider" bikes. I mean, 1.5 liters?! That's a friggin' CAR engine! They get as high as 2.3 liters on some marks (without breaking into the Boss Hoss I mentioned earlier that uses the 350-509ci vee-eights). When I bought my first bike twelve years ago, 500-900cc was considered mid sized/entry rider friendly, and an eighty cubic inch (1340cc) Harley Davidson was something no beginning rider had any business on. These days it's a real challenge to even FIND a bike under 600cc, I can count the available streetbike models on one hand without using my thumb. Each one is priced right out of its market...so buyers naturally gravitate to the "only slightly more expensive" bigger model. Outside of North America, a 250cc bike is considered a big bike whose rider is obviously well skilled in order to manage one. Here, it's a toy --- in a country where motorcycles aren't considered transportation, but toys themselves. Go figure.

Surely I'm not expected to believe that humanity has evolved as quickly as motorcycle technology in that time frame (by the end of this post, I intend to offer proof of that statement)...not when you compare high school drop out rates between now and then.

Quote:
Also, the cost. If hybrids and their ilk cost an arm, a leg and both the family jewels to own, or at least entail a ruinous five-year payment plan, that kind of defeats the purpose of having a hybrid, especially if the economy continues the way it is.


Re: that aforementioned $20K dealership price above. I picked my then-new 2004 Tacoma SR-5 extra-cab up for $3K less, while it may never net the same fuel economy, I definitely got far more vehicle for the money. For starters, it has a back seat...The original Smart For2 was targetted with a $10K U.S. MSRP, but of course that's back when it had a 660cc motor pushing it. Surely you don't think the manufacturer is going to pay for the R&D and retooling for a niche market, moreso after they just downsized the motor to 599cc...nay, pass that on to the buyers. Nope, we get the liter mill while Europe recieves the 599cc mill at the euro-equivilent $10K US price.

Now make that Smart a $10K car (as initially inteneded)...there'd be waiting lists at the dealers and nothing to demo.

Buying another vehicle for the sake of using less fuel rarely pays off. Sure, there are a few instances...I can stake a claim in that for my motorcycles...if I only had one. I literally do ride them every day to work, get groceries with them (not cart loads mind you, but what I need versus what I want and I may make more than one trip per week as such, but it's on the way home from work). I'll even ride in the rain if I absolutely MUST (fortunately for that sake, our annual rainfall here averages two inches). My insurance is $75/year for each bike versus $660/year for each truck, and with lower deductibles on the bike. I get around 60mpg on the average (some of my bikes go as low as 50 with a ham fisted throttle, others as high as 80 on a lightly throttled tank) compared to 24mpg on the trucks.

So even with the extra mandated service on the bikes: oil & filter along with new spark plugs every 4K miles, valve clearance checks & carburetor synchs every 8K miles, brake pads at 12-16K mile intervals, and tires & tubes that average 24K miles (which is actually phenomenal considering some bikes will need a new rear tire with every oil change, average MC tire life is 10-12K miles)...even considering the rediculous cost for MC parts it still doesn't make up the difference in insurance rates.

Alas, I'm in the minority here. Surely if I lived one or two hundred miles further north, that wouldn't apply as I would not try riding daily on snow covered icy roads.


Then you have to factor in the other costs. That Toyota Prius battery pack is something like an $8000 piece when it gives up the ghost, after 7-8 years. Half the cost of the new car price, no doubt more than the car itself is worth via Kelly Blue Book by then. If leasing a car ever made sense, that's the car to lease. It's definitely not the new car you want to buy and hang on to for the rest of your life, as I am currently doing with my 93 Toyota pick up.

Finally, there is the all too common factor --- which in itself deserves its own topic:


For my parting shot, I'm going to shoot the bullseye concerning the typical American consumer


Back in the 1970s, we had this thing called a gasoline crisis. People began to dump their inefficient American made vee-eights for imported four bangers to save on fuel. Once gas prices settled, the V-8 made a resurging comeback.

In 2005, Hurricane Katrina wiped out the Galveston fuel refineries and gas shot up to $3/gallon. Everyone dumped their inefficient American made vee-eights for domestic and/or imported four bangers to save on fuel. Toyota dealerships nationwide had waiting lists on the Prius. Gas settled back down to $2/gallon six months later and those four bangers went up for sale in order to reclaim the vee-eights. Toyota dealerships nationwide couldn't keep the Tundra in stock.

Three years later to the day, commodities brokers inflated the price of sweet crude to over $100/barrel, jacking gas prices up to well over $4/gallon. Care to take a guess what happened as a reaction to this fuel crisis? Everyone with a 2005 and newer V8 traded it in for a domestic or import four banger. Care to take a guess what happened when gas dropped down to a very "cheap/affordable" $2.80/gallon? Mind you, that was 20¢/gallon less than the prior "fuel crisis". Yep, all those 2008 four bangers were traded back for 2008 and newer vee-eights. The top two selling vehicles for 2008 were the Ford F-150 and Chevy Sierra, both full sized trucks. In fact only two non-V8s made the top ten best seller list that year, the Honda Accord and Toyota Avalon (both flagship models with V6s, unless you came across a rare base model). Funny thing, we were allegedly in a recession during that time...

Remember EVERY newspaper article during each gas crisis? Remember the picture that accompanied each one? What was featured? Someone gassing up a late model big truck or SUV, quoting how the whining dipstick owner couldn't afford to fill it up. For the few of us that caught that, it was about the only accurate media offering from the last decade. And I don't credit the media for that either, instead I (dis)credit the typical American consumer that happened to be there when the media was. After all, they (the media) would have been waiting a much longer time for a four banger or motorcycle/scooter to roll in...so they take the first one they get. Odds always lean in favor of the common denominator.

To prove that even further, remember how everyone added a fuel surcharge (on top of a delivery surcharge) for delivery services last year? How come nobody rescinded those when gas became "cheap" again? Because obviously you need a Suburban to deliver flowers, a four banger sedan or minivan simply can't handle that kind of a payload. Innocent I have a story behind that one, but we're already on a tangent...


So there's the promised proof: humans definitely have not evolved at the same ratio as motorcycle technology in the past twelve years. I'm no scientist, but I challenge anyone who is to disprove my theory that humans, on the whole, or at least in North America, are actually devolving instead.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Will's picture
Will
December 23, 2009 - 6:29pm
Shadow wrote:
Back in the 1970s, we had this thing called a gasoline crisis. People began to dump their inefficient American made vee-eights for imported four bangers to save on fuel. Once gas prices settled, the V-8 made a resurging comeback.

In 2005, Hurricane Katrina wiped out the Galveston fuel refineries and gas shot up to $3/gallon. Everyone dumped their inefficient American made vee-eights for domestic and/or imported four bangers to save on fuel. Toyota dealerships nationwide had waiting lists on the Prius. Gas settled back down to $2/gallon six months later and those four bangers went up for sale in order to reclaim the vee-eights. Toyota dealerships nationwide couldn't keep the Tundra in stock.

Three years later to the day, commodities brokers inflated the price of sweet crude to over $100/barrel, jacking gas prices up to well over $4/gallon. Care to take a guess what happened as a reaction to this fuel crisis? Everyone with a 2005 and newer V8 traded it in for a domestic or import four banger. Care to take a guess what happened when gas dropped down to a very "cheap/affordable" $2.80/gallon?Mind you, that was 20¢/gallon less than the prior "fuel crisis". Yep, all those 2008 four bangers were traded back for 2008 and newer vee-eights. The top two selling vehicles for 2008 were the Ford F-150 and Chevy Sierra, both full sized trucks. In fact only two non-V8s made the top ten best seller list that year, the Honda Accord and Toyota Avalon (both flagship models with V6s, unless you came across a rare base model). Funny thing, we were allegedly in a recession during that time...

To prove that further, remember how everyone added a fuel surcharge (on top of a delivery surcharge) for delivery services last year? How come nobody rescinded those when gas became "cheap" again? Because obviously you need a Suburban to deliver flowers, a four banger sedan or minivan simply can't handle that kind of a payload. Innocent I have a story behind that one, but we're already on a tangent...


So there's the promised proof: humans definitely have not evolved at the same ratio as motorcycle technology in the past twelve years. I'm no scientist, but I challenge anyone who is to disprove my theory that humans, on the whole, or at least in North America, are actually devolving instead.

The sad thing is, when gas was damn near $4/gallon($3.99 was the highest it got in this part of OK), a lot of people were still driving frickin' supermarket-assault vehicles and pimpmobile Lexi, and have continued driving them no matter how bad gas got, while the rest pretty much conformed to the trend you've noted.

I'll do you one better. The humble Ford Taurus sedan, when it first came out, had a four as a standard engine and a six as an option(the SW was six and eight respectively). Shortly after gas dropped below $1/gallon, the Taurus sedan had a six as standard and an eight as an option, with most non-SUV Tauruses Ford was cranking out packing eights after a while, cos people wanted the bigger engine(so they can make like Emerson Fitipaldi as they're ripping down Highway 69).

Even with the gas crunch on, and Detroit supposedly in distress, you don't see too many four-cylinder Tauruses anymore.

Better yet, my ex's dimwitted ex-husband(I mean, I like Bubba, but he's stupid) got soaked for a '93 Ford Ranger, even knowing it drinks more fuel than one of Tyra Banks' top-model rejects pukes up meals. Why? Cause it's got a V-8 351 engine, of course....

In short, disproving your theory would be kind of like disproving the law of gravity.

Tho', these days....

Shadow wrote:
Now make that Smart a $10K car (as initially inteneded)...there'd be waiting lists at the dealers and nothing to demo.

I couldn't agree more. Sides, the liter mill kind of defeats the purpose behind the vehicle in the first place.   

Shadow wrote:
Re: that aforementioned $20K dealership price above. I picked my then-new 2004 Tacoma SR-5 extra-cab up for $3K less, while it may never net the same fuel economy, I definitely got far more vehicle for the money. For starters, it has a back seat...The original Smart For2 was targetted with a $10K U.S. MSRP, but of course that's back when it had a 660cc motor pushing it. Surely you don't think the manufacturer is going to pay for the R&D and retooling for a niche market, moreso after they just downsized the motor to 599cc...nay, pass that on to the buyers. Nope, we get the liter mill while Europe recieves the 599cc mill at the euro-equivilent $10K US price.

Of course, that's the way the American business mentality works.

You may be able to gain some fuel economy out of the Tacoma with a camper shell, but either way, it's a much more practical vehicle than the Smart or its kin.

Shadow wrote:
Sadly we as Americans have fallen victim to the "bigger is better" mantra, and it doesn't just affect the automotive market. You should see the motorcycle market these days, dealers and magazines are pushing 1500cc beasts as "mid sized/entry rider" bikes. I mean, 1.5 liters?! That's a friggin' CAR engine! They get as high as 2.3 liters on some marks (without breaking into the Boss Hoss I mentioned earlier that uses the 350-509ci vee-eights). When I bought my first bike twelve years ago, 500-900cc was considered mid sized/entry rider friendly, and an eighty cubic inch (1340cc) Harley Davidson was something no beginning rider had any business on. These days it's a real challenge to even FIND a bike under 600cc, I can count the available streetbike models on one hand without using my thumb. Each one is priced right out of its market...so buyers naturally gravitate to the "only slightly more expensive" bigger model. Outside of North America, a 250cc bike is considered a big bike whose rider is obviously well skilled in order to manage one. Here, it's a toy --- in a country where motorcycles aren't considered transportation, but toys themselves. Go figure.

Surely I'm not expected to believe that humanity has evolved as quickly as motorcycle technology in that time frame (by the end of this post, I intend to offer proof of that statement)...not when you compare high school drop out rates between now and then.

Not just the "bigger is better" mantra, but the "everything is disposable" mantra, to wit:

 1) If the tiniest little thing's wrong with it, don't spend the money to fix it, just buy a new one.

2) Proper care and maintenance? WTF's that? Just abuse it til it don't go anymore, then buy a new toy to break.

3) Eeeniest, weensiest bit too slow? No in-dash TV/DVD? Speck of bird doody on the windshield? Wrong shade of blue? Whatever trivial thing is wrong with it, don't muddle through with it, sell your blood, sell your house, sell your kids, buy a new model...

My older brother had a perfectly nice Chevy Camaro Z-28, but abused it. He ended up screwing up the slave cylinder in the clutch, a not inexpensive repair, however, it does beat the alternative, especially when he had the car all but paid off. 

My brother naturally took the alternative, and financed his soul by buying a new '05 Mustang.  

Shadow wrote:
Yep, I can immediately notice the difference on my 35HP motorcycle engines after changing the plugs. It always has a little more pep after that one, and my fuel economy resurfaces to 60mpg after the next fill up.

Problem is, too many people are total f*kwits anymore, and the simple removal of six(or four)spark plugs is beyond their comprehension. 

Same sort of people who wonder why their ABS didn't work after taking a turn too hot in driving rain.

Shadow wrote:
Well, that explains the mini-van. Ain't no shame in buying what you need. Cool

That's right. 

As mentioned in another post, the ground effect package would be nice to have, just for the improvement in fuel economy.

Shadow wrote:
Buying another vehicle for the sake of using less fuel rarely pays off. Sure, there are a few instances...I can stake a claim in that for my motorcycles...if I only had one. I literally do ride them every day to work, get groceries with them (not cart loads mind you, but what I need versus what I want and I may make more than one trip per week as such, but it's on the way home from work). I'll even ride in the rain if I absolutely MUST (fortunately for that sake, our annual rainfall here averages two inches). My insurance is $75/year for each bike versus $660/year for each truck, and with lower deductibles on the bike. I get around 60mpg on the average (some of my bikes go as low as 50 with a ham fisted throttle, others as high as 80 on a lightly throttled tank) compared to 24mpg on the trucks.


That, and you don't want your co-workers to know you have a pickup.Laughing

I totally forgot you pay less insurance for a motorcycle than a four-wheeler. 

(Full coverage or liability? For full-coverage, assuming a six-month policy, $110/month's not a bad deal for 2+ pickups, and pick-ups are/used to be cheaper than most other four-wheelers). 

Shadow wrote:
So even with the extra mandated service on the bikes: oil & filter along with new spark plugs every 4K miles, valve clearance checks & carburetor synchs every 8K miles, brake pads at 12-16K mile intervals, and tires & tubes that average 24K miles (which is actually phenomenal considering some bikes will need a new rear tire with every oil change, average MC tire life is 10-12K miles)...even considering the rediculous cost for MC parts it still doesn't make up the difference in insurance rates.

Alas, I'm in the minority here. Surely if I lived one or two hundred miles further north, that wouldn't apply as I would not try riding daily on snow covered icy roads.

Agreed.


Shadow wrote:
Then you have to factor in the other costs. That Toyota Prius battery pack is something like an $8000 piece when it gives up the ghost, after 7-8 years. Half the cost of the new car price, no doubt more than the car itself is worth via Kelly Blue Book by then. If leasing a car ever made sense, that's the car to lease. It's definitely not the new car you want to buy and hang on to for the rest of your life, as I am currently doing with my 93 Toyota pick up.

Yeah, that's part of what I meant by the cost, parts and service, especially considering car dealerships would rather compel you to buy a new vehicle than have your present one serviced regularly...why my mom stopped going to the GM dealership in Perry(Warner Robins' was much worse)to maintain her '94 Bonneville and shopped around for a good local mechanic...unlike my dad, who kept trading in his old vehicles for new just when he was about to pay them off....


"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 23, 2009 - 8:22pm

You might have missed the edit I did while you were typing...

"Myself" wrote:
Remember EVERY newspaper article during each gas crisis? Remember the picture that accompanied each one? What was featured? Someone gassing up a late model big truck or SUV, quoting how the whining dipstick owner couldn't afford to fill it up. For the few of us that caught that, it was about the only accurate media offering from the last decade. And I don't credit the media for that either, instead I (dis)credit the typical American consumer that happened to be there when the media was. After all, they (the media) would have been waiting a much longer time for a four banger or motorcycle/scooter to roll in...so they take the first one they get. Odds always lean in favor of the common denominator.


It was definitely the tend out here in the southwest. Granted, the L.A. / Las Vegas cultural mentality is "I'm trendy, fit in or die"...as a result we have the highest concentration of $30,000/year millionaires. So it's no coincidence that we also have the highest representation for bankruptcies and foreclosures.


I'll say one thing about Ford: despite having some of the lesser eye-appealing vehicles that can be offered (in the least eye appealing colors...was beige ever cool?), at least they know how to run a car business. They weren't foolish enough to analyze the annual market report and say "Okay, we sold 500,000 total units last year. Ramp up production on each model to 500,000! We're shipping out 500,000 Fords, we're shipping out 500,000 Mercuries, we're shipping out 500,000 Lincolns!" Repeat every year for five years. Is it any wonder GM is in the toilet? As much as I disagreed with the Obama administration mandating GM's CEO to step down, the act itself of stepping down was long overdue.


And I can't solely fault the American consumer either...the manufacturers have some whacky formulas as well. Take for instance the Prius example...Toyota couldn't sell enough of them. But they made nothing from doing so, with a 1% to 4% profit margin on the model. Sad to say, they made much better business when the Tundra ramped up afterwards. If Toyota dealerships only sold Priuses, they'd go into foreclosure in a matter of months and the manufacturer would follow suit.

I don't know how this translates for the Smart, so I can't comment on it much further. I'm pretty sure the $20K dealer price here is considerably higher than MSRP, most dealers here operate that way. Even so, I would wager that whatever the MSRP is, it probably doesn't carry a signifcant profit margin. BTW, our local Smart dealer is a chain that also carries a used car center, Infinity, Dodge, Rolls Royce, and formerly Hummer (they changed the Hummer lot to Smart, not so sure that might have been a move in the right direction considering the trend out here!). So to say the least, those dealerships would more than carry the weight of a less profitable line. I seriously doubt a stand alone Smart dealer would last long. But again, I'm unfamiliar with their sales structure so it's just a theory at this point.

Quote:
My older brother had a perfectly nice Chevy Camaro Z-28, but abused it. He ended up screwing up the slave cylinder in the clutch, a not inexpensive repair, however, it does beat the alternative, especially when he had the car all but paid off. 


My brother naturally took the alternative, and financed his soul by buying a new '05 Mustang.


First, and it's just a common yet accurate thing out here and most other parts from my understanding, so I'm not saying it to throw some sparks or make an accusation...is your brother a high school drop-out? The gag being that the Trans-Camaros are the official car of the American High School Drop-Out.

Sorry, just had to get that out. I know not every Trans-Camaro owner is a drop out, just that most drop outs have a Trans-Camaro...

But I will take that story as an opportuity to justly bag on Government Motors once more.

They were profoundly showing off that new Camaro for five or six years, carting it around from auto show to auto show, inciting drool everywhere they went. They even permitted it to appear as a prominent staple in a major motion picture (the X-formers sequel was a fiberglass kit car Camaro so I don't count that one). Like your brother, I'm sure he (along with countless others) got tired of drooling and finally dropped his coin at another maker's dealership...courtesy of the Ford (Mustang) and Chrysler (Charger & Challenger). My running gag was that Toyota would belt out a rear drive retro-60s muscle car before Chevy got their azz in gear and offered the Camaro.

After all, they had this limited production 1969 2000GT model:

...just drop a Tundra V-8 under the hood of a retro-styled rendition and voila!

Quote:
That, and you don't want your co-workers to know you have a pickup.Laughing


Yeah, there's also that... Wink

Quote:
I totally forgot you pay less insurance for a motorcycle than a four-wheeler. 

(Full coverage or liability? For full-coverage, assuming a six-month policy, $110/month's not a bad deal for 2+ pickups, and pick-ups are/used to be cheaper than most other four-wheelers). 


I have liability/comp/collision w/ $250 deductibles on the bikes. They have two things in their favor: Progressive (incidently my carrier) did a study a few years ago and one model I have made the top five least stolen list and another made both the top five least crashed and least stolen list. Oddly enough, they both carry the same premium (which I might surmise as being the lowest possible for either).

I have higher deductibles ($500) on the Taco and dropped collision on the 93, as I simply don't drive it that much and its retail value continues to plummet each year, so that figure is an average of the two. And in no way do I complain on that figure either, knowing what others pay for "lesser" vehicles out here.

And last but not least...

Quote:
Not just the "bigger is better" mantra, but the "everything is disposable" mantra


Sadly, that part is attributed to the global market that was enabled during the mid-90s. Now that everything comes out of China, well...everything truly is disposable. Honda closed their Marysville Ohio motorcycle plant this year (although they transferred all the employees to other outlets so no actual jobs were lost) so they could manufacture those bikes for less elsewhere. While a majority of the parts in Marysville were sourced in house, care to take a guess where some of the other parts hailed from? Not the home offices in Japan...I can only wonder where the bulk of future parts will be coming from, and it won't take long for the domestic marks to follow suit. They already carry more than sufficient foreign content mandating the loss of the coveted "Made in USA" mark as of 1995, believe it or not, the Marysville Honda models in 96 and 97 had enough domestic content to allow the mark. Big stink raised on that one in court...

But back to the topic. If you buy a $180 Bissel carpet cleaner and it breaks a year later (not due to owner lack of maintenance mind you, but due to the inferior cheap plastic gear that strips instead of what used to be a metal gear that outlasted the motor), it's gonna cost $100 to repair...so when it breaks again in the following year, do you fix it again or buy the $89 version instead? That's the dilemna I just went through, having invested $280 into a two year old $180 cleaner that needs further investment...I figure buy the lower end $89 model and if it lasts a year, I'll come out ahead by replacing it with another $89 model next year.

The alternative is purchasing an industrial grade machine for $699 and hoping the product doesn't get outsourced to China before it breaks down...which is what happened on my prior cleaner. Not much of a choice there, you can either buy expensive Chinese made cheap crap or cheap Chinese made cheap crap. Either way, you get cheap crap.

My Hoover upright is starting to make funny noises. I think I'll scour E-Bay for a 1976 Electrolux cannister or 1979 Kirby upright for my next vacuum cleaner, my parents have one of each in perfect working order, and neither is for sale...
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Sargonarhes's picture
Sargonarhes
December 23, 2009 - 8:30pm
Georgie wrote:
I LOVE the old Samurais! Talk about tough little trucks (as I recall, it is basically a 7/8 scale Wiley's Jeep). I never rolled mine (but could have). I played pinball on an icy bridge with it once. Temporarily straighted out the one quarter panel that took 90% of the damage and drove away (after filing an accident report with the cops, of course). Later replaced that quarter panel with a bolt on after market part. Easiest car that I ever maintained. I took it (snow) "drift busting" across an open field only to discover one "drift" was actually piled dirt next to a ditch. Went airborne for a full car's length without a scratch. Used to use it to drag bigger cars out of ditches following lake effect snows in up-state NY for beer money. Had up to 80mph once while drafting off a semi somewhere west of Detroit, otherwise it would break 65 only going downhill with a tail wind. Small enough that it could be parked anywhere. The only real downside, it doesn't fit my 6'2" 200+ lbs. frame. LOL!

Now I also drive a RAV4, love it, but I really miss my Samurai.


Alright! Another fan of the sturdy little Samurai. I miss mine as well. Which is why I really like that Suzuki concept truck.
All this got me to do more google searches and I found a Segway bike?

More like a segway quad but whatever.

I've seen miniexplorer type vehicles like Daihatsu's Mud Master C.

But I wouldn't use this on any really rough trails.

I refined my search for concept trucks and came up with this by some artist.

Is that Explorer looking enough for SF? Or maybe some changes to this dump truck for an explorer.
http://www.likecool.com/Super_Tipper_Truck--Concept--Car.html
In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 23, 2009 - 9:09pm
Sargonarhes wrote:
All this got me to do more google searches and I found a Segway bike?

More like a segway quad but whatever.


Even more like a Segway that costs far more than my truck...as if the original $8K Segway wasn't already the "SUV Terror of the Sidewalks". At least if they legalize those contaptionson the sidewalk, I can definitely take my motorcycles on the sidewalk. Smaller footprint, after all...

 
Georgie...I missed it the last time around but since it was brought up, I have a few hand drawn explorers on my SF site (link in my sig, IIRC see the "Misc Pics" page)
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Will's picture
Will
December 25, 2009 - 11:34pm
Shadow wrote:
First, and it's just a common yet accurate thing out here and most other parts from my understanding, so I'm not saying it to throw some sparks or make an accusation...is your brother a high school drop-out? The gag being that the Trans-Camaros are the official car of the American High School Drop-Out.

Sorry, just had to get that out. I know not every Trans-Camaro owner is a drop out, just that most drop outs have a Trans-Camaro...

No offense taken, just I didn't feel like posting on Xmas, especially after having been snowbound at my ex's(and her parents, yay....)all of Xmas Eve and much of Xmas Day(least she can cook).

Sides, I don't think too highly of my older brother myself.

To answer your question, he actually graduated high school, not much of an accomplishment, considering Peach County(GA) schools in particular, and the American education industry(public and private) in general, but that's a rant of a different color.

Shadow wrote:
But I will take that story as an opportuity to justly bag on Government Motors once more.

They were profoundly showing off that new Camaro for five or six years, carting it around from auto show to auto show, inciting drool everywhere they went. They even permitted it to appear as a prominent staple in a major motion picture (the X-formers sequel was a fiberglass kit car Camaro so I don't count that one). Like your brother, I'm sure he (along with countless others) got tired of drooling and finally dropped his coin at another maker's dealership...courtesy of the Ford (Mustang) and Chrysler (Charger & Challenger). My running gag was that Toyota would belt out a rear drive retro-60s muscle car before Chevy got their azz in gear and offered the Camaro.

Ironically enough, his first car was a '74 Corolla. His need for speed and reckless driving almost made it his last....

(Yes, he has his good point. He's a Star Wars fan(the OT, not the prequels, and, sure as hell, not the EU, which goes to prove he can come up with two braincells to rub together from time to time), the only thing we have in common....)

Government Motors has been headed downhill ever since they bought EDS and Ross Perot's silence back in the late 80s. If Perot had gotten up the want-to to take over, things might have been a little different.

And, it seems they've learned little from their mistakes(such as the SSR, which I thought was as butt-ugly as the PT Loser) over the last two decades, and have not built on the few things they've gotten right(such as acquiring the ABS technology from Mercedes-Benz), and their latching on to the trend of "mini" SUVs tends to bear that out.

As to your opposition to the Current Occupant attempting intervention where GM's CEO is concerned, I agree, both to the opposition(government should not be choosing who runs private corps any more than they should be in the religion biz), and to the fact that the time was way past for not just the head man, but his head men, to all gather their hats and coats and leave via the tradesman's entrance...speaking strictly as an unwilling investor in GM(via my taxes), I have the right to demand whatever steps are necessary to guarantee a return on my investment, however involuntary it may be.

However, in regards to government intervention in the auto industry, we crossed that bridge when the taxpayers' subsidized Chrysler over twenty years ago; moreover, the line between Big Government and Big Business has been, by and large, been nonexistent from at least the mid-nineteenth century onward, when government troops were deployed as strikebreakers(to list a prominent example), and, even before that, when the government itself entered into an alliance with various businessmen during the formation of the Union Pacific Railroad Company and its subsequent construction of the first transcontinental railroad, with government officials becoming stockholders and making a killing along with their corporate allies, during that endeavor.

It has only gotten worse from there, thanks, in large part, to World War II, where business and government became even more intertwined, as it built the so-called Arsenal of Democracy and fielded the largest military force in history, this relationship, far from being dissolved at war's end, only growing stronger over the past six and a half decades.

It's just that it's more overt now, the brief period of enlightened self-interest during the mid- to late-Seventies, quickly giving way to the overt "greed is good mentality," of the past almost thirty years.

But, enough of that subject.

Shadow wrote:
Sadly, that part is attributed to the global market that was enabled during the mid-90s. Now that everything comes out of China, well...everything truly is disposable. Honda closed their Marysville Ohio motorcycle plant this year (although they transferred all the employees to other outlets so no actual jobs were lost) so they could manufacture those bikes for less elsewhere. While a majority of the parts in Marysville were sourced in house, care to take a guess where some of the other parts hailed from? Not the home offices in Japan...I can only wonder where the bulk of future parts will be coming from, and it won't take long for the domestic marks to follow suit. They already carry more than sufficient foreign content mandating the loss of the coveted "Made in USA" mark as of 1995, believe it or not, the Marysville Honda models in 96 and 97 had enough domestic content to allow the mark. Big stink raised on that one in court...

But back to the topic. If you buy a $180 Bissel carpet cleaner and it breaks a year later (not due to owner lack of maintenance mind you, but due to the inferior cheap plastic gear that strips instead of what used to be a metal gear that outlasted the motor), it's gonna cost $100 to repair...so when it breaks again in the following year, do you fix it again or buy the $89 version instead? That's the dilemna I just went through, having invested $280 into a two year old $180 cleaner that needs further investment...I figure buy the lower end $89 model and if it lasts a year, I'll come out ahead by replacing it with another $89 model next year.

The alternative is purchasing an industrial grade machine for $699 and hoping the product doesn't get outsourced to China before it breaks down...which is what happened on my prior cleaner. Not much of a choice there, you can either buy expensive Chinese made cheap crap or cheap Chinese made cheap crap. Either way, you get cheap crap.

My Hoover upright is starting to make funny noises. I think I'll scour E-Bay for a 1976 Electrolux cannister or 1979 Kirby upright for my next vacuum cleaner, my parents have one of each in perfect working order, and neither is for sale....

Agreed, but the question is, is it truly a global market, or an example of how American business(and its gay politician lovers) perceive the rest of the world as their own plantation? 

We bitch about "foreign" oil, yet, most of this "foreign" oil is either owned outright by American corporations(even to the point of employing Cuban soldiers as mercenaries* to protect their property in Angola, when dos Santos was in power)or owned by people who have an understanding with the American oil companies.

One of those people, of course, being the late Saddam Hussein.

Banana republic politics meets black gold. 

As for China, same thing, the Americans have supported and invested heavily in China and its government ever since Nixon first visited the country, and his ambassador(the elder George Bush)paved the way for the "understanding" which exists between the two counties. 

It's American businessmen and Chinese political hacks who own the factories which are contributing to the royal screwing of the ordinary American and Chinese working stiff alike.

This is only relevant in that American business can work slave labor at slave labor wages to produce cheap crap which continues breaking down in order to trap their consumers into buying more cheap crap(which, as you've observed, ain't cheap), while using the self-generated threat of foreign workers and the "global economy" as just another blade with which the rights of American workers are steadily whittled away, while resentment over foreign workers and the global economy by American workers is in turn, one of the methods used by American companies to make sure their foreign worker base have little alternative except allowing themselves to be used as slave labor.

But, we were discussing cars, weren't we?

Shadow wrote:
You might have missed the edit I did while you were typing...

 

"Myself" wrote:
Remember EVERY newspaper article during each gas crisis? Remember the picture that accompanied each one? What was featured? Someone gassing up a late model big truck or SUV, quoting how the whining dipstick owner couldn't afford to fill it up. For the few of us that caught that, it was about the only accurate media offering from the last decade. And I don't credit the media for that either, instead I (dis)credit the typical American consumer that happened to be there when the media was. After all, they (the media) would have been waiting a much longer time for a four banger or motorcycle/scooter to roll in...so they take the first one they get. Odds always lean in favor of the common denominator.


It was definitely the tend out here in the southwest. Granted, the L.A. / Las Vegas cultural mentality is "I'm trendy, fit in or die"...as a result we have the highest concentration of $30,000/year millionaires. So it's no coincidence that we also have the highest representation for bankruptcies and foreclosures.

Yup, I missed it.

I kind of figured the trend was nationwide.

Guess they call your town Lost Wages for more than one reason....Laughing

You are right tho, the media loves a story, and apparently, there's no story they love better than the "poor" consumer denied his inalienable right to excess...conveniently ignoring the fact that most of us are actually hard-working slobs frickin' dumb enough to kill ourselves sixty hours a damn week just to stay frickin' broke, because their attempts to actually support themselves and feed their families with just the basics, at best, taxes their ability to save money and make the Horatio story of the American Dream at least seem less of a lie than it is.

Not to mention the fact that we end up having to support the "real" America, its excess, its greed and its laziness.

In the immortal words of an 80s rock icon:

John Mellencamp wrote:
Aww, it's the simple man, baby, that pays the bills, the thrills, the pills that kill....

Shadow wrote:
After all, they had this limited production 1969 2000GT model:

...just drop a Tundra V-8 under the hood of a retro-styled rendition and voila!

I'll say! She looks an awful lot like an E-type Jag, which is good, since that body's got such clean lines.
 


 

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 26, 2009 - 6:08am
Will wrote:
Ironically enough, his first car was a '74 Corolla. His need for speed and reckless driving almost made it his last....


My first car was a 75 Corona wagon, fairly similar in many regards to the Corollas of that era. My father bought it new and I inherited it after high school (1986, fall semester @ UNLV). That said, I can understand his need for speed as the car really didn't offer that much. Sure, it could get up and keep up, but performance just was not on the menu. The shining part about it was it outlasted the also new 77 F-150 dad bought. I lost it in an accident in early 93 with 255K on the clock, a couple years later I came across it at a nearby auto parts store and a hispanic fellow had acquired it/fixed it up. We got to talking and I sat in the familiar driver's seat once more, and saw he had managed to flip the odo again.

And he wouldn't sell it to me either.

I actually loved the car despite its lack of...cool factor, it had an oversized A/C system in it. Which proved verrrrry useful out here! See, when dad bought it, it was a base model and the A/C went in after the purchase. The dealer couldn't get the parts in, so they offered to give him an A/C system from a Cressida instead. Now I don't know if you've ever seen an early to mid 70s Cressida, but they were about as big as a Chevy Nova. So yeah, that was a very efficient A/C system in that smaller car. If I had it on for more than an hour, frost would form on the ducts!

Reckless...well you can do that with anything, so no comment.

Quote:
such as the SSR


Is that their flip-top "hip pick up" that looks like a retro Studebaker?

What a disappointment that was. I remember going to a dealer and caught myself looking at one. The sticker price was something rediculous, approaching $50K IIRC. I figured maybe it was some deal like their former Cyclone trucks, boasting Corvette chassis/suspension and a hot rod V-6 a la Buick Grand National. I wasn't interested in it, but a salesman came over anyways so I figured I'd bounce a few Qs off him. First one was "So what's this based on, a Corvette chassis?"

"No, it's basically a Trailblazer with a different body and street suspension."

"Street suspension, you mean like Corvette street or Cavalier street?"

"Cavalier..."

"...And why is it priced at nearly twice the Trailblazer, which is is at least four times the vehiucle this little hunk of crud is? Why is it priced at entry level Corvette grade when it's barely capable of outgunning your Geo Metro?"

"So, would you like to see something else?"

"I think I've seen enough."

Quote:
Guess they call your town Lost Wages for more than one reason....Laughing 


Well, yes. Here comes another, whcih actually expands on the other part I mentioned earlier.

The so called "mortgage crisis".

I know we're not unique in this regard, aside from leading the nation in foreclosures anyways. But I'm pretty sure this story panned out in a lot of cities just the same. Much like the typical gas crisis articles that were in the paper every few weeks, here's how the motrgage crisis articles went:

"The lender handed me a contract with a $4500 monthly payment. I knew we couldn't afford it at our combined $4000/month salaries, but those evil predatory lenders promised us we could refinance at a lower rate in six months so we accepted it."

They KNEW they couldn't afford it, they KNEW the minimum payment exceeded their total income, but it was the LENDER'S fault?!?

WHAT THE #$!& WERE THEY PLANNING TO DO FOR THOSE SIX MONTHS IN THE MEANTIME?!?

I went to Alabama public schools in 1976-77 for the third grade, back when they were ranked 49th in the nation. Even the most illiterate dipstick back then could tell you that if he only had $5 in his pocket that he couldn't afford to buy a $6 item.

And like the gas articles, each mortgage crisis article read the same: moron makes X per month and bought a home with an X + Y monthly payment.

And those that did manage to miraculously make those payments (via second and third families living in the other bedrooms etc) did manage to refinance at a lower rate, and then rolled over an equity loan into the balance and used the cash to buy boats, motorhomes, motorcycles, jet skis, Hummers...you name it, at a new payment that exceeded the old payment.

So now we're up to "I make X per month but am paying X + Y + Z for the house each month."

Pretend for a moment that I'm only six years old (classic Denzel Washington line, "Philadelphia") and explain to me how this was a crisis...


Alas, back to the cool real life vehicles. (why is this so easy to drift off into a tangent on? LOL)

Here's a classic that wasn't offered here, a 1966 Datsun SC-1600 Roadster:

My father brought that back home with him from Okinawa, along with me and what turned out to be a twin brother gestating in my mother's womb (shown). Long story short about the twin --- mom's water broke early and the baby was lost, they had NO idea there was more than one fetus...so by the time it was all done, surprise of all surprises: there was still one more lurking within. I plead the fifth as to whatever transpired beforehand.

Anyways back to the car. Honda had a compatible model as well, looked nearly identical but had a slightly different front clip. Neither car was marketed in North America, but both were boasting 1.6 liter inline fours with a pair of two barel carbs and four on the floor, and the cars could hit 40mph in first gear.

If ever there was a car my dad has been eternally kicking himself for selling, that was it.

And knowing that Honda had a compatible version, you really can't help but notice the S-2000 DNA in that picture.

Here's a prototype Peugeot was working on, no idea if it ever got off the ground but it was pretty slick:

http://gallery.mudpuddle.co.nz/d/2707-2/Peugeot_Trike_final_03_small.jpg

One more for the "more dollars than sense" category, but a huge improvement over the Tomahawk nonetheless:


...and anything you can do with a stock $14K jap bike can be done more expensively with a base $25K Beemer:


The perfect vehicle for a foot fetish:


and finally, when that V-8 powered Boss Hoss two wheeler just isn't enough...
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

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