 November 9, 2009 - 2:38pm | The rules say the torps are nuclear armed and do 4d10 damage They dont specify warhead type for the seeker and the mine but these are also high damage weapons; 5d10 and 3d10+5 respectively. I would think that they also could be said to be nuclear as well. The rule descriptions do say that both mines and seekers detonate. The mines do a little less damage as they are more stand off ish Anyone have thoughts on this? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 November 9, 2009 - 3:10pm | The torpedo would be equivalent to a "city busting" nuclear weapon, according to the Dragon/Ares KH adventure "Day of the Juggernaut," the Sathar megaship was going to drop nukes onto the planet and these were listed as torpedos in the ship inventory, I believe. Can't really explain the differences in the damage, though. |
 November 9, 2009 - 6:34pm | A single Seeker Missile is larger then a HS 1 ship - 40 cu. meters vs. 31 cu. meters respectively. And it is twice the size of the 20 cu. meter torpedo. I would guess that it has a slightly larger warhead then the torp and a space consuming, totally crappy engine. Relatively speaking, the Seeker Missile is underperforming with only 2 ADF and 5d10 damage. IMHO. The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
November 10, 2009 - 3:11pm | Since these weapons are all nuclear, another thought would be that torpedoes, seeker missiles, and mines would be restricted only to military forces and should not appear on non-government vessels due to the extreme risk they would pose on populated worlds. Large corporate yachts/privateers may have them, but wouldn't want that information to get back to authorities. Star Law and local planetary law enforcement agencies would spend time checking all vessels for these weapons. |
 November 10, 2009 - 8:02pm | +1 Sniffing Nuke Dogs are common beast used by Star Law to find illegal nuclear material. Dog Spacesuit $750 Cr. Trained dogs can enter suits in 3 turns. Untrained dogs, 250 turns. |
 November 10, 2009 - 8:22pm | It's a premise in my campaign as well, civilian vessels can not be armed with such weaponry, the sale of launchers and weapons is restricted to military centers (fortresses, militias, etc) and as such, no civilian ship will find it easy to acquire either... I went a bit further and forbid assault rockets on civilian craft as well. They aren't nuclear, but extremely lethal nonetheless. |
November 10, 2009 - 10:30pm | I went a bit further and forbid assault rockets on civilian craft as well. They aren't nuclear, but extremely lethal nonetheless. Yikes thats pretty restrictive! I think pirates will still find a way get their hands on these weapons and that corporations will too. but I can see Han Solo types having to pay for some hefty modifications to their ships to hide illicit weaponry. I suppose Out Reach would be the place to buy banned weapons. Could even introduce letters of marque to allow a few civilian ships to be armed with proscribed weaponry. Side note: a new race showing up in the frontier, like say the Saurians, would not have assault rockets per se but a maybe a similar variant to it. Just tweek the numbers on the weapon so its different and since the saurians are reffugees they'd over time convert to standard frontier models of weapons but you could have "fire sales" on Saurian Torpedos How I might tweek a weapon for a race: Saurian Torpedo needs 2 hexes to fully arm at which point its casing breaks apart and two rockets home in on the target (treat each as an assualt rocket but with just 2d10 damage) if its fired at 2 or less hexes then it just strikes for 2d10 damage. Each rocket must in the Saurian Torpedo must be rolled for separately. its different but doesn't depart from the rules to much. There be a fire sale on them at Outer Reach but the demand is low as they have some limitations and aren't really as useful as a standard torp but hey when you dont have the backing of the military have to take what you can get. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 11, 2009 - 12:58am | It seems restrictive when thrown out there by itself...but my para-military civilian ship option permits a semblance of balance (which basically allows 15 cubic meters worth of weaponry per hull size). I think most players, given the choice for general all purpose operations, would opt for a 25 cubic meter laser battery on their HS:3 craft over a 30 cubic meter ARx2 system (10 meters for the launcher plus ten more per rocket). I permit the RB however, despite near-AR damage capabilities. Simply put, it chews up far too much space (40 cubic meters for the array and ten more per salvo), not to mention the MHS:5 for non-paramilitary design rulings, and then there's the short range...simply put any ship capable of supporting a one or two load RB would be better off with one or two LB under either system of civilian ship construction rules. And yes, pirates & smugglers will eventually get their hands on these weapons as well. Many of my pirate ships are also "demilitarized" as well...a frigate is specced out as a KH UPF set-up minus the torpedo system (and in most cases sports an ADF of 3 to boot). No reason players can't eventually acquire them either. But it will be a challenge for either sector, espeically when it comes time for resupply in civilized space. Sure, pirates can reverse engineer the weapons, but once they're operating in Frontier space it will be tough to replenish them far from home. Ditto for players... |
 November 11, 2009 - 2:18am | Pirates could have covert bases in Frontier space. Or freighters acting as tenders. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 11, 2009 - 8:27am | I think everyone's forgetting something, namely that having atomic engines makes the whole 'limiting of nuke weapon availability' point moot. If you have atomic fuel and an atomic engineer and a decent engineering section, you can make a nuclear weapon .The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
November 11, 2009 - 9:51am | Not really a moot point, though. When you consider that it isn't that it is impossible to acquire or develop the weapons -- since atomic fuel would be relatively easy to acquire. It would be that possession of a nuclear weapon would be restricted. PC's caught by customs agents, Star Law, etc ... , with the above mentioned weapons, especially ones built from scratch, may be perceived as a threat to the civilian population. |
November 11, 2009 - 10:25am | "We have found the nuclear wessel sir" "And Sir, it's the Enterprise!" |
 November 11, 2009 - 11:39am | When we talk about how big a boom something makes, I think that is a terrestrial affectation. When in space the ships are constantly flirting with reletavistic speeds. The mere kinetic energy that a rocket would have could easily destroy a ship. At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
November 11, 2009 - 1:50pm | Good point. Which is why a SF setting with a bit more "realism" than KH would place a premium on defensive weaponry -- point defense railguns/coilguns and laser weapons. I would also point out that more defensive weaponry would force weapons to become more stand off or much faster -- the ex-ray laser missile weapons of 2300AD or Alternity's kinetic missile weapons that, upon detonation, hurled dozens/hundreds of super dense rods at the target at extreme velocities. |
November 11, 2009 - 3:37pm | I'm in agreement with umungus (who's been watch Universe on the History Channel, I think) and Sam's last post. Furthermore, I would point out that the purpose of a nuclear tipped weapon is that it can be proximity fused to cause damage without needing a direct hit. Close only counts with nuclear weapons and hand grenades. Hitting a high speed moving target from 40,000km can't be easy. Not needing a direct hit makes it a little easier. As far as the outfitting of civilian ships goes, I simply use common sense. The vast majority of civies won't need anything more then defensive weaponry, and then are most likely to go cheap. There are many ways of defending your ship without mounting heavy weapons on it. As for protecting planets from nukes, one could assume that any heavily populated area would be protected by several thousand ICMs and a decent, automated warning system. Of course, this still won't prevent an atomic shuttle from making a scheduled landing before it overloads its engines. The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
November 11, 2009 - 4:33pm | I haven't seen that one Georgie... I'l have to check it out though.  I agree with a nuke being a proximity weapon. What I always wondered about is what happens when a rocket or torpedo missile gets to its max range? After 4 hexes if the torpedoe or missile misses what happens to it? Shouldn't it continue on at 4 hexes per turn just like the ships? Does it just explode at its max range? In game play could you just let it fly in a straight line at 4 hexes per turn off the map? If a ship is foolish or unlucky enough to end up in the same hex then it detonates? At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
November 11, 2009 - 4:50pm | I'm in agreement with umungus (who's been watch Universe on the History Channel, I think) and Sam's last post. Furthermore, I would point out that the purpose of a nuclear tipped weapon is that it can be proximity fused to cause damage without needing a direct hit. Close only counts with nuclear weapons and hand grenades. Hitting a high speed moving target from 40,000km can't be easy. Not needing a direct hit makes it a little easier. As far as the outfitting of civilian ships goes, I simply use common sense. The vast majority of civies won't need anything more then defensive weaponry, and then are most likely to go cheap. There are many ways of defending your ship without mounting heavy weapons on it. As for protecting planets from nukes, one could assume that any heavily populated area would be protected by several thousand ICMs and a decent, automated warning system. Of course, this still won't prevent an atomic shuttle from making a scheduled landing before it overloads its engines. Last point first. According to the KH Campaign, any planet with planetary defenses will launch enough ICMs so that any torpedo's chance to hit is reduced to 5%. Also, a nuclear or antimatter charge could be combined with a kinetic weapon to have lots of high-velocity shrapnel to shred everything within a given volume of space. That could be used for point-defense as well "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 11, 2009 - 5:15pm | I think everyone's forgetting something, namely that having atomic engines makes the whole 'limiting of nuke weapon availability' point moot. If you have atomic fuel and an atomic engineer and a decent engineering section, you can make a nuclear weapon .I'll make a corralary for that one: How many ICBMs have been manufactured at modern nuclear power plants? |
November 11, 2009 - 8:53pm | How many ICBMs have been manufactured at modern nuclear power plants? I was thinking about that because not every plant is capable of developing a weapon and it only seems the countries with a burn to just have a plant that can are places like N Korea, Iran, and Saddam's Iraq Also I was wondering about the effectiveness of nukes in vaccum as most of the dramatic damage they do on a planet relies on the presence of atmosphere ie the over pressure and the fire storm (not to down play radiation or the EMP). So the question is how much damage will a nuke do in space and how close does it really need to be. I suppose that to answer that question though we might need to specify standard nukes and bomb pumped laser warheads. The bomb pumped laser warhead would be more stand offish I guess but I just dont have a clew about what a standard Nuke would do in space. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 12, 2009 - 12:26am | Hey Guys, At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
November 12, 2009 - 2:33am | Good article and great artwork. |
November 12, 2009 - 5:16am | The thing is there's a significant difference between a weapons engineer and a powerplant engineer. Sure, the nuclear powerplant engineer might be capable of whipping up a nuclear weapon in a pinch, just like you or I might be capable of whipping up a crude longbow out of twine and a curved section of tree limb. But like that crude bow, compared to the real deal that nuke is going to be severely lacking in many ways, up to and including the possibility of not even working at all... "Your home brewed torpedo makes it 20 meters out of the launch tube and detonates violently under your bow, decimating your freighter's avionics section along with the communication and sensor arrays." --- or --- "The torpedo is successfully launched, it traverses the 40,000 kilometer distance between your freighter and the inbound pirate vessel. You rolled a 02, DIRECT HIT!!! (another dice roll by the GM) Sadly, the torpedo does not detonate and merely bounces off the hull, tumbling freely on a tangent vector." (fast forward a few turns) "The pirate vessel has pulled alongside your crippled craft and your skin sensors report several contingents of troops, the external camera system depicts several crews busily cutting through the hull with laser powertorches. Your energy sensor suddenly reports a nuclear signature roughly 180,000 klicks off your port stern as the home made torpedo finally detonates." |
November 12, 2009 - 9:08am | [/quote]The pirate vessel has pulled alongside your crippled craft and your skin sensors report several contingents of troops, the external camera system depicts several crews busily cutting through the hull with laser powertorches. Your energy sensor suddenly reports a nuclear signature roughly 180,000 klicks off your port stern as the home made torpedo finally detonates."[/quote] I'm in for that adventure. Can I be a pirate? At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
November 12, 2009 - 4:39pm | Sure. BTW, they're using home made laser powertorches... |
November 12, 2009 - 4:48pm | The thing is there's a significant difference between a weapons engineer and a powerplant engineer. Sure, the nuclear powerplant engineer might be capable of whipping up a nuclear weapon in a pinch, just like you or I might be capable of whipping up a crude longbow out of twine and a curved section of tree limb. But like that crude bow, compared to the real deal that nuke is going to be severely lacking in many ways, up to and including the possibility of not even working at all... "Your home brewed torpedo makes it 20 meters out of the launch tube and detonates violently under your bow, decimating your freighter's avionics section along with the communication and sensor arrays." I don't recall saying anything about the quality of the homemade device.  The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
November 12, 2009 - 4:56pm | Sure. BTW, they're using home made laser powertorches... Then I am using a home made tri- barrel gyrojet rifle... At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
November 12, 2009 - 5:41pm | No prob. BTW, your jetclips...are they factory units or reloads? Did I also mention that for resolutions I'm using dice that I cut out of cardboard and folded/glued together? (one of them has the number 9 appearing twice and no zero...oops) I think we're well on our way to inventing hobo-RPGing  |
November 12, 2009 - 7:26pm | By the way, even if the homemade torp doesn't detonate, the kinetic energy will still do some damage to the pirate. Twenty tons of torpedo(assuming 1 cu. meter=1 ton), travelling at approximately 66,667 m/s(roughly four hexes in a ten minute turn)* equals roughly 44 terajoules of energy, or about the same yield as nine kilotons of TNT. As Georgie pointed out, who needs nukes? *BTW, this doesn't take into account the freighter's velocity, which would be added to the torp's own upon launch. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 12, 2009 - 10:18pm | "even a paint chip would cut off my arm travelling at orbital velocities" |
November 13, 2009 - 8:21am | "even a paint chip would cut off my arm travelling at orbital velocities" Burn it off, maybe.... "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 13, 2009 - 8:51am | As a GM, one should feel free to place any limitations withing the game that the GM wants. However, one should also be prepared for players who do not see the Frontier with your eyes and seek to find the loopholes and cracks for their characters to exploit to bypass the limitations. It is all part of the fun of RPG play. Twenty-five plus years ago, I discovered that many of my friends saw imposed limitations as a challenge, and proceeded to dream up extremely imaginative ways to bypass them. If I could plan for 8 methods to bypass, they would find a ninth. It was great! Soon I started placing limitations simply to see their solutions! BTW, Shadow, are you going to mass produce and sell those dice? I think that there might be a market for them.  The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
